The LP12 just got better (again)

[Catweazle]

The trade in program allows you to trade in an standard (Akurate) Radikal 1 or a Lingo (any version) for a machined (Klimax) Radikal 2. Credit for the standard radikal is $1300 and for the Lingo $795. At this time the trade in is only available toward a machined Radikal 2 which runs $8450. Likely to make it less than completely exciting to Lingo owners (although $795 is a great trade in price for a Lingo 1).

Well, well. I went from a Lingo 2 (25th anniversary) to a machined Radikal last year to qualify for a free Karousel, and did not regret it. It's crazy money, but not as crazy as the money we spent for our average record collection. Each and every record sounds more musical with a Radikal, especially with the machined one - and I'm sure that the Radikal 2 will easily trump the original Radikal. From this perspective it's a fair deal.

[Ianw]

Well, I did a back to back new Klimax Radical at Loud and Clear Glasgow last week.

I found a worthwhile improvement. It wasn’t an “in your face” difference and did not add anything that wasn’t audible already.

What it did do was quite subtle in as much as existing sounds were given more definition and clarity with less smearing. As said, all done in a subtle way with no massive jump in general musicality. I’m sure that it’s real benefits would become very apparent installed at home.

For me the upgrade kit is worthwhile when it becomes available. The old Radikal is no longer in production, now superseded by new Radikal taking advantage of Linn’s new mounting machinery etc.


Those, like me, with existing Radikals need not fear because the existing version is still mighty.

Just what I found, others may differ and that’s fine.

[Defender]

I agree and if you look at the new prices the upgrade costs for owners which already have a Radikal are to a high percentage the price increase. Which I find a little bit greedy (the list price increase for a new Radikal) because I am pretty sure the costs of production for Linn might be almost the same and not higher than 10-15% from before.

[matthias]

Which I find a little bit greedy (the list price increase for a new Radikal) because I am pretty sure the costs of production for Linn might be almost the same and not higher than 10-15% from before.

Agree,
greedy is what I combine with Linn but Linn is not alone in doing so.
It is what it is.

Matt

[ThomasOK]

I wouldn't be too quick to jump on the "it's just greed" bandwagon. Prices of raw materials like aluminum and copper have gone up a lot and availability has gone down. This delayed the Lejonklou Källa and is responsible for a likely roughly 30% price increase in the already expensive SINGularity. Combine materials problems with fluctuating exchange rates, increasing shipping charges and the craziness engendered by Brexit and COVID and the price increases are not surprising. We have received pretty much across the board price increases within the last six months from many of our suppliers including Dynaudio, Rega, B&O, Vandersteen, Grado, Audio Technica, NAD, Bluesound and PSB among others, the last three all within this month. Indeed Linn, Dan Clark Audio and Lejonklou may be the only vendors who haven't put in mostly across the board price increases. I believe Linn is increasing the price on new models and upgrades to keep up with cost increases while trying to keep most prices where they are.

I now have an answer to another question that was brought up earlier in the thread. What happens to the replaced parts from upgraded Radikals? They are to be destroyed and disposed of in accordance with local waste regulations. So it looks like no home built or Renew Radikals.

[tokenbrit]

...
I now have an answer to another question that was brought up earlier in the thread. What happens to the replaced parts from upgraded Radikals? They are to be destroyed and disposed of in accordance with local waste regulations. So it looks like no home built or Renew Radikals.

Thanks for finding out and updating us. That's sad from a second-hand, system upgrade perspective, and environmentally egregious especially in light of raw material availability...

[Tamblers]

If “new motor housing for better decoupling” translates to “motor no longer rests on the Trampolin” Linn has managed to get the customers to pay for their mistake on the original. The upgrade mentions the motor only in this context. Can someone more familiar tell me if the motor has changed in any other way?

[Tony Tune-age]

If “new motor housing for better decoupling” translates to “motor no longer rests on the Trampolin” Linn has managed to get the customers to pay for their mistake on the original. The upgrade mentions the motor only in this context. Can someone more familiar tell me if the motor has changed in any other way?

The new motor has different capacitors than the original motor. So they could be better quality, and they might perform better as well.

[David Neel]

Well, I did a back to back new Klimax Radical at Loud and Clear Glasgow last week.

I found a worthwhile improvement. It wasn’t an “in your face” difference and did not add anything that wasn’t audible already.

What it did do was quite subtle in as much as existing sounds were given more definition and clarity with less smearing. As said, all done in a subtle way with no massive jump in general musicality. I’m sure that it’s real benefits would become very apparent installed at home.

For me the upgrade kit is worthwhile when it becomes available. The old Radikal is no longer in production, now superseded by new Radikal taking advantage of Linn’s new mounting machinery etc.


Those, like me, with existing Radikals need not fear because the existing version is still mighty.

Just what I found, others may differ and that’s fine.

I can only echo this. I have an Akurate Radikal, and the new version is better in the ways Ianw says. But the Klimax Radikal is yet more. For me, my existing Radikal hasn't become broken - so I won't be upgrading until I can move to Klimax. Any budget that might have helped that has been redirected to Källa, so it may be a while...

[Tendaberry]

If “new motor housing for better decoupling” translates to “motor no longer rests on the Trampolin” Linn has managed to get the customers to pay for their mistake on the original. The upgrade mentions the motor only in this context. Can someone more familiar tell me if the motor has changed in any other way?

An article in SoundStageAustralia.com sums up the changes:
"The new Radikal controller is said to maintain the highest possible rotation speed accuracy and pitch precision the company can achieve. As Linn claims, “33.3333333 is the magic number”. The Radikal features Linn’s FPGA-based digital management system for the motor control which is claimed to be five times more accurate than its predecessor. The regulated power supply section is said to have the lowest noise-floor possible while its in-house designed 6-layer circuit board scheme allows shorter signal paths and smaller, higher quality electrical components. Radikal now employs a DAC technology derived from Linn’s high-end network streamers which provides a reference voltage.

The Klimax LP12’s new high precision motor has been further optimised to emanate “negligible electromagnetic interference” while physical decoupling and a new motor housing arrangement provide further mechanical and electronic isolation. Again, the design has allowed for higher-specification and smaller electrical components. The Radikal controller is available in either a standard chassis finish or an optional extra cost precision-machined aluminium chassis."

[Tony Tune-age]

Here's a really decent article regarding the Klimax Radikal ll, and Linn's new cartridge too.

https://hifipig.com/linn-klimax-lp12-wi ... -ekstatik/

[maffe]

Just spent an hour at Tonläget listening to Radikal vs Radikal2. Yes the new radikal is better, more music.
Anders have two klimax LP12’s with with same specs running now for a few days, yes some age differences but as close you can come. So really quick to change between the different Radikal.
Am I going to spend 2000€ on upgrading my old? Short answer no, think I’d rather buy more records😉

[Defender]

thank you for letting us know your experience. even though everyone needs to come to his own conclusions but I am with you I think I can spent the money somewhere else and get more musical value for it.

[Matteo]

Uhm

I did not listen to the new Rad2 yet.

My provocative question is: does a better speed accuracy/stability affect the musicality?

M.

[maffe]

Uhm

I did not listen to the new Rad2 yet.

My provocative question is: does a better speed accuracy/stability affect the musicality?

M.

Well you can try to provoke and some will others will not get provoked but it’s an adequate question.
Guess you picked the radikal over a lingo or majik ps for a reason in the first place?
For me the simple answer is:
Is it better or not? Only one way to find out and that’s a trip to some one who can do a dem of <insert item>
Will I spend money on it or not? That’s something to talk to the bank account about😉

[Tony Tune-age]

My provocative question is: does a better speed accuracy/stability affect the musicality?

Well, all of the Linn turntable power supplies have consistently improved the speed accuracy and stability over the previous power supplies (i.e., Lingo l over Valhalla, Lingo 4 over Lingo 3, etc. and the Klimax Radikal over Akurate Radikal). And historically, the newer turntable power supplies have been more musical. So in my opinion the answer is yes, better speed accuracy and stability does have a positive impact on musicality.

Cheers

[V.A.MKD]

Uhm

I did not listen to the new Rad2 yet.

My provocative question is: does a better speed accuracy/stability affect the musicality?

M.

Yes, in a good way ... Better musicality, better tune, much much easier to follow what musicians want to say.
This is from my personal experience and to be honest it was not on Linn TT or LP12 it was on other brand ... With or without provo ....

[Tamblers]

I see Linn has removed Kandid from the Klimax level price list of turntable components and replaced it with Exstatik. I guess all who aspire to owning a K level LP12 had better get their wallets out. Both versions of the Radikal remain on the Klimax list, though, with the non machined called “standard enclosure”, as do both Urikas. Buying my Kandid was a stretch for me. It’s terrific and I hope it stays around, but I have my doubts. The price for Exstatik is beyond my reach as, I imagine, will be the new tone arm that is likely coming.

[linesrg]

Good Evening All,

Just occasionally I wonder about the focus on the accuracy of a turntable rotating at 33 1/3 RPM.

How accurately does the machine that makes the master pressing disc rotate?

Regards

Richard

[Tony Tune-age]

I wonder about the focus on the accuracy of a turntable rotating at 33 1/3 RPM. How accurately does the machine that makes the master pressing disc rotate?

I haven't seen the actual specifications for the new Klimax Radikal ll motor, and of course the specification may not be provided by Linn either. However according to the information that has been provided, the "new motor is accurate to five times tighter tolerance than it's predecessor." In addition "the motor itself features smaller and lower noise components, making everything electrically quieter than ever."

[ThomasOK]

It should be obvious to anyone who has been watching that Linn has succumbed to marketing speak for some time. The motor being accurate to 33.3333333 probably sounds cool to Hi-Fi publications and speed consistency is certainly important to the music. However, I would doubt that this level of speed accuracy is necessary or even audible but the other changes to the power supply, motor and motor mount, which are claimed to lower motor noise and vibration, are indeed likely to make for better perfromance. They just aren't as easy to make a big deal about.

[ThomasOK]

By the way, the torque for the new motor is .2Nm even, half what it was with the old motor mount. The lower number is likely due to the foam pad now between the motor housing and SS top plate. It will obviously be sensitive to how much it is compressed. i found this torque on the first upgrade kit I installed and shared it with an LP12 owner in Germany. He tried it and said it was spot on. So at this point I am pretty confident in it. I didn't try a whole bunch of torques as I started with .2Nm which sounded quite good right off the bat. But I did try .4Nm and a range of torques above and below .2Nm. .2Nm even was where it all came together.

[Tamblers]

An interesting review in Stereophile of the new OMA K3 turntable and arm (hideously ugly, obscenely expensive). In it, though, the designers touch on the importance of speed stability. They point out that platter speed is affected, however slightly, by the transients and dynamic contrasts presented in a record’s grooves. By the time a sensor notices this and compensates the correction is well past due, the moment has passed. The human ear registers these anomalies as softness, smearing or an impediment to natural, lifelike musical flow.

[ThomasOK]

An interesting review in Stereophile of the new OMA K3 turntable and arm (hideously ugly, obscenely expensive). In it, though, the designers touch on the importance of speed stability. They point out that platter speed is affected, however slightly, by the transients and dynamic contrasts presented in a record’s grooves. By the time a sensor notices this and compensates the correction is well past due, the moment has passed. The human ear registers these anomalies as softness, smearing or an impediment to natural, lifelike musical flow.

i just thought I'd note that the sensors on the Radikal and Lingo 4 motors are specifically not designed to compensate for short term speed fluctuations. All three only sense and correct speed once per revolution, they are meant only to deal with long term drift. On the original Radikal the maximum speed change allowed was .03% per revolution. So probably the slowest servo on any turntable. Short term speed stability on an LP12 is more in the region of the main bearing, platter balance, belt design and motor quality.

[Tony Tune-age]

It should be obvious to anyone who has been watching that Linn has succumbed to marketing speak for some time. The motor being accurate to 33.3333333 probably sounds cool to Hi-Fi publications and speed consistency is certainly important to the music. However, I would doubt that this level of speed accuracy is necessary or even audible but the other changes to the power supply, motor and motor mount, which are claimed to lower motor noise and give and vibration, are indeed likely to make for better perfromance. They just aren't as easy to make a big deal about.

Thanks for your insight Thomas, it's very useful and much appreciated as well. It's not easy getting useful or meaningful information from Hi-Fi publications.