New LP12 upgrades

per · Post by **per** » 2009-03-17 11:46

Here are som info about Radikal and Urika posted on a German website:

http://www.stereoplay.de/News/Neue-Upgr ... 38165.html

Post by **lejonklou** » 2009-03-17 22:17

Lego wrote:... when it gets to the point when you're asking yourself shall I buy this piece of hifi kit or start a small business and employ a couple of young kids ...

Well, if I get the Uddevalla ideas a bit closer to a commercial product, I'll choose the latter! :mrgreen:

SaltyDog · Post by **SaltyDog** » 2009-03-18 12:21

Linn has just made the announcement on the release of the new power supply, brushless DC motor, etc. on the LinnForums

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2009-03-18 13:06

Linn have started a new thread with more information about the forthcoming products:

http://forums.linn.co.uk/bb/showthread.php?tid=2218

ThomasOK · Post by **ThomasOK** » 2009-03-18 18:03

As noted by SaltyDog and Charlie1 Linn have made the official announcement on the Linn forums. Linn also have a trade announcement and new price lists on the dealer website as of yesterday.

Here is a summation of the important information for those who don't want to go to the Linn forum and scan through all the posts:

New products:

Radikal Motor Control Unit (MCU) DC power supply

- includes new DC brushed motor in machined, non-resonant casing
- motor and tachometer use existing motor mounting holes
- will ship in Klimax case for $7000US the first week of April
- will ship in Akurate case for $3900US sometime later in April
- Linn claims NO difference in performance between the two chassis
- lowers magnetic field leading to better cartridge performance
- includes power supply and power cable for Urika MC phono stage
- includes infrared optical tachometer that reads a black mark on the inside of the outer platter to keep speed precise

Urika Moving Coil Phono Stage

- will ship on new Trampolin for $3500US the first week of April
- dual mono construction for better channel separation, inspired by some customers using two Lintos

- even more accurate RIAA equalization than the Linto
- short, screened T.Kable hard soldered to the boards
- output is by RCA jacks or transformer coupled XLR jacks
- 1.2 meter Silver RCAs included
- "cueing mute" mode mutes the output by a press of the speed button
- comes pre-mounted on new Trampolin with cable management and improved damping
- new Trampolin made necessary by need for cable management and Urika mounting but also offers improved performance over Trampolin 2
- new Trampolin not available separately

There will be a discount if both a Radikal and Urika are purchased together. The price for the Radikal in a Klimax chassis and the Urika toghether is $9650US. The price for the Radikal in an Akurate chassis and the Urika toghether is $6550US.

ThomasOK · Post by **ThomasOK** » 2009-03-18 18:05

I feel two important, and very positive, things came out of this announcement. One is that Linn are making the same exact performance available in a premium and standard case. It was clearly stated, by two different engineers, that the performance of the Radikal was the same in either chassis design. This makes it much more affordable for those of us who don't feel matching a stack of Klimax cases is a necessity. This is what I like to see from Linn, allowing the customer to choose whether they want to pay the extra for the sleek style and solidity of the Klimax case. I'd love to have that choice on the DS but there it may well be that the case does make a substantial musical improvement.

The second is that Ianw also clearly states that the Tune demonstration is still at the heart of their design work saying that "We find it a very consistant method for developing products". He also mentioned that the first prototype Urika was accurate but it was not very musical and several additional months of development were necessary before it was musical enough.

I also note that the engineers mentioned that development of the Radikal and the Urika to this level of performance were made possible by the Keel and Ekos SE revealing so much of what was going on. In like fashion Ivor told me sometime back that the Keel and Ekos SE were made easier to develop because of the additional musical information revealed by the introduction of the Akiva. Each upgrade builds upon the previous one and influences what comes next.

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2009-03-18 20:04

ThomasOK wrote:The second is that Ianw also clearly states that the Tune demonstration is still at the heart of their design work saying that "We find it a very consistant method for developing products". He also mentioned that the first prototype Urika was accurate but it was not very musical and several additional months of development were necessary before it was musical enough.

Yes, I thought that was very encouraging also and these are the guys actually developing the products, so even more important coming directly from them rather than some sales team.

Also thought it was interesting that they explained the reason why they still use tune dem: "To date we have not found any one metric we can make with electronic test equipment that can be used for measuring musical quality and ease of communication. That is why we ultimately use the Tune Demonstration."

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2009-03-18 20:11

ThomasOK wrote:One is that Linn are making the same exact performance available in a premium and standard case.

Do you suspect that the Klimax version will still sound better though - if only slightly?

I thought the klimax cases made nice neat channels in the aluminum casing for the wires and this also helped sound quality - maybe I'm not remembering this correctly?

Moomintroll · Post by **Moomintroll** » 2009-03-18 21:25

Charlie1 wrote:
I thought the klimax cases made nice neat channels in the aluminum casing for the wires and this also helped sound quality - maybe I'm not remembering this correctly?

True, but there's no audio processing in the Radikal.

'troll

ThomasOK · Post by **ThomasOK** » 2009-03-18 23:03

Moomintroll wrote:
Charlie1 wrote:
I thought the klimax cases made nice neat channels in the aluminum casing for the wires and this also helped sound quality - maybe I'm not remembering this correctly?
True, but there's no audio processing in the Radikal.

'troll

This is my thinking too. Since it is strictly a DC power supply it may be that the sonic benefits of a Klimax chassis for audio circuits just don't apply.

Post by **lejonklou** » 2009-03-19 18:58

Ok, but on the other hand, have you ever tried turning a Lingo on its side or upside down? How does the LP12 sound? Different and worse!

No audio processing there either.

Moomintroll · Post by **Moomintroll** » 2009-03-19 19:01

lejonklou wrote:Ok, but on the other hand, have you ever tried turning a Lingo on its side or upside down? How does the LP12 sound? Different and worse!

No audio processing there either.

That's why Linn chose to put the feet on the bottom...

'troll

Post by **lejonklou** » 2009-03-19 20:58

So what you're suggesting is that feet make a difference, but the enclosure does not?

ThomasOK · Post by **ThomasOK** » 2009-03-19 21:19

lejonklou wrote:So what you're suggesting is that feet make a difference, but the enclosure does not?

I don't know, did you ever try turning it over wit a set of feet on the top? :D

Post by **lejonklou** » 2009-03-19 21:36

No, but I have tried placing the Lingo on different tables/shelves and the effect it has on the music is very fundamental.

I think the Lingo is very useful for testing the quality of both shelves and power cords. There isn't too much effect on the sound - which can sometimes be distracting - but a very clear one on the tunefulness.

Which is why I suspect that there might be a difference between Klimax and Akurate Radikal too.

Lego · Post by **Lego** » 2009-03-19 22:57

lejonklou wrote:No, but I have tried placing the Lingo on different tables/shelves and the effect it has on the music is very fundamental.

I think the Lingo is very useful for testing the quality of both shelves and power cords. There isn't too much effect on the sound - which can sometimes be distracting - but a very clear one on the tunefulness.

Which is why I suspect that there might be a difference between Klimax and Akurate Radikal too.

If I buy the Klimax Radikal I'll be saying I couldnt hear a difference but I just got the K 'cause its bling and who wants an Akurate case.
It costs Linn a lot of money to make a Klimax case but it doesnt make it cool..I think Linn are over estimating their design team linns stuff is ugly..Klouts are cool but that's it..I'd love to be a fly on the wall Lejonklou when you blind tune-dem the Klimax Radikal and Akurate R

ThomasOK · Post by **ThomasOK** » 2009-03-19 23:19

Fredrik, I fully understand your thoughts here and can certainly verify the musical changes that different power cables make on the Lingo. You can be certain that my Tongyuan cables will be remaining for use with the Radikal. And while I've not done testing of different furniture on the Lingo I have definitely heard the improvements a good rack can make.

I just couldn't resist having a little fun with where the thread was going, besides I really WANT to believe that there is no musical difference as I can much better afford the AV style Radikal.

I should mention that I have edited my post with the summary of the new products a couple of times to add new bits of information (the latest being the AV style Radikal pricing and shipping timetable estimate) and to correct a couple of grammatical errors. I felt it would be easiest for others if I put all the information there rather than across several posts.

Vereina · Post by **Vereina** » 2009-03-20 19:21

ThomasOK wrote:I feel two important, and very positive, things came out of this announcement. One is that Linn are making the same exact performance available in a premium and standard case.

I fully agree with ThomasOK, that this is an important point.

If the Radikal is as good as we all hope, I'd love to be able to upgrade my Lingo one day. I doubt I could ever justify the cost of the Klimax version to myself, but would certainly consider the Akurate.

This also raises an interesting point re. DS pricing. The Radikal pricing implies that the Klimax case costs an additional $4,100. So, doing a very rough comparison (using UK DS prices), that implies that the electronics in a Klimax DS are costing (or perhaps I should say being priced at) an extra $5,000. Probably not a bad profit margin!

ThomasOK · Post by **ThomasOK** » 2009-04-01 19:04

Linn has now created new pages for the Radikal and Urika on the linn website: www.linn.co.uk There you can read basic info on both products but you can also download more detailed info sheets on both products which have the first photos of the Radikal MCU cases. There is also an updated LP12 owners manual with some new instructions regarding the functioning of the Radikal.

It is interesting to note that the new LP12 manual has information on the operation of the turntable with the Majik power supply and with the Radikal but not with the Lingo! Linn engineers have said the Lingo and Linto will continue in the product line but this makes me wonder for how long?

ThomasOK · Post by **ThomasOK** » 2009-04-08 22:26

Just in case anyone up here wasn't aware of it, yesterday Linn had a live Q & A session with three of the main engineers involved in the development of the Radikal and Urika. I have to say that I found the session quite informative and very well presented. For those interested Linn has a replay available that has all the questions and answers as well as other material. Here is the link for the replay:

http://www.linn.co.uk/lp12se_live

Along with the questions and answers Linn did a few interesting surveys while it was running, posted some new photos, and included links to virtually all the supporting information that was talked about. This additional information is all in the replay and I thought the way it was put together was quite well done - I hope they have more of these in the future as they indicated they likely would.

For those who don't want to go through the whole Q & A session here are what I felt were the most important points:

The three engineers have all worked for Linn for at least 7 years.

The standard chassis Radikal should ship around the end of this month (the Kilmax case version is already shipping).

The performance upgrade form the Radikal and Urika are bigger than those form the Keel and Ekos SE. However, they ducked the question of whether to do the Radikal or the Keel first.

The motor control unit (MCU) avoids the problems normally associated with servo controls such as speed instability and poor pitch definition. It does this by using a very slow servo. The MCU only reads and corrects the speed of the platter once per revolution and the largest step it is allowed to make in a revolution is .03%. The servo is just to control drift. "The speed of a DC motor is controlled by the voltage, it is virtually impossible to set a voltage to an accuracy of 0.1%, therefore we use a precision clock to provide the reference (accuracy 0.001%), and the DC voltage is used to track - rather like a phase-lock loop." The precision clock is based on the clock used in the Klimax DS.

The Trampolin acts to help isolate the Urika from vibrations and combined with the freedom form an AC magnetic field (because of the brushed DC motor) makes this a very good environment for the phono stage. They found a noticeable improvement in performance once they moved it inside.

For standard 1.2 meter lengths the RCA cables will sound better, for "substantially longer" runs the XLRs would be the best choice.

The engineers found there was no advantage in soldering the cables on the output side of the Urika. There is a big improvement in soldering the short T.Kable to the boards.

The brushes on the motors should last a long time as they are precious metal and the motor is only under 5% of its rated load. Linn does not yet have a MTBF figure on it, however.

The engineers said: "We are always looking for upgrades, we have some ideas but they are just that...ideas. When we get an upgrade near completion, you folks will be the first to know". They did say that they planned no changes to the top plate material and mentioned the work they had done to make sure the new motor was backwards compatible with the existing top plate. They also said they were happy with the performance of the current belt.

I have to say it seems to me that they don't have a lot left to upgrade. Over the last roughly six years they have made large improvements in the cartridge, tonearm cable, subchassis, tonearm, Trampolin and now the motor, motor controller and the phono stage. They say they are happy with the top plate and belt and plan no changes there. There have been rumors of a new Akiva but the engineers ducked that question. I, for one, am just happy that they are still putting the development effort into making the best turntable I have yet heard even better.

Chris Morton · Post by **Chris Morton** » 2009-04-13 07:04

One thing that does not seem to have been talked about is what looks like the elimination of the p-Klip. The new arm cable looks to be very light weight and of short length needing only to be routed into the phono stage which is directly below on the top of the trampolin. This seems ideal so that all the problems with getting the p-Klip in the right position and tight with arm cable not having any impact on suspension, are essentially removed.

I would say this is very good news for LP12 owners and for dealers too because it should allow for a quicker setup time and a more consistent performance (given not all dealers will dedicate enough time to getting the arm cable dressing absolutely perfect).

These new updgrades really do seem to be very eligant and innovative from an engineering point-of-view. I'm intrested to hear them although I'm probably going to have to fly my dealer out from the UK (again) to get the product properly installed.

ThomasOK · Post by **ThomasOK** » 2009-04-13 22:23

Yes, the P-Clip is gone with the Urika as the short, flexible cable goes directly form the Urika circuit boards to the tonearm base. This will indeed make setting up an LP12 properly a little simpler, although there is still much to get right in order to achieve maximum performance from the turntable.

As a matter of fact, the underside of a newly fully-loaded LP12 now looks a little bare as there is not only no P-CLip and arm cable but no electronics board is attached to the wiring strap either. Indeed, the wiring strap now only serves as an internal brace for the plinth as the only things still attached to it are the grounds for the Keel and the Trampolin/Urika and that certainly doesn't require a wiring strap as they are actually attached to the top plate bolts. I wonder how long it will be before we see some LP12 guru claiming that it sounds better with the wiring strap removed altogether? (Note that I am not making any claims one way or the other on the advisability of that idea - but if it works I want royalties. :) )

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2009-04-14 13:58

Picked up some early feedback on the new products and it was felt that the Radikal is a slightly bigger upgrade than Keel although they were not compared directly using tune dem. It was also felt that the Radikal was better than the Urika, perhaps as expected.

What do members think of the idea of a phono stage being located inside a vibrating turntable, even though it is on a trampolin? I was speaking to someone else that raised concerns about this and thought it would sound better on a dedicated stand, but then it becomes a Linto surely?

ThomasOK · Post by **ThomasOK** » 2009-04-14 17:32

From a strictly theoretical point of view I don't see a problem with it. The Trampolin helps isolate it from the vibrations in the shelf it is on and the spring suspension isolates it from any minimal vibrations of the platter, bearing and stylus tracing the record. The only vibrations left would be those of the motor traveling from top plate through the plinth to the Trampolin and of the plinth itself. The motor is supposed to be especially quiet and is further housed in a vibration damping casing so its effect should be minimal. It would be interesting to know how much effect the plinth resonances will have on it though as they certainly effect the table itself.

The problem with putting it on a separate stand is you loose one of the main benefits of the Urika: the short arm cable soldered directly to the circuit boards. As the engineers have pointed out there is a substantial benefit to having such a short, direct signal path from the arm to the phono stage. Also the engineers claimed that there was a major musical improvement once they were able to put the phono stage inside the LP12. They are saying that the same boards sounded better when put inside so regardless of the theoretical questions the claim is that it works.

Since I haven't heard them yet I can't really comment and I'm not sure I'll have the opportunity to do an A/B between the Urika and the two Lintos as I have to sell the latter to afford the former. :)

Music Lover · Post by **Music Lover** » 2009-04-15 19:41

Charlie1 wrote: What do members think of the idea of a phono stage being located inside a vibrating turntable, even though it is on a trampolin? I was speaking to someone else that raised concerns about this and thought it would sound better on a dedicated stand, but then it becomes a Linto surely?

It's not optimum having it inside LP12. Cable length isn't that important but isolation is!
And it's not only vibrations, you have electromagnetic interference between PU, motor and PUamp.

New LP12 upgrades

Klimax Pricing