What do you think of this? (Keel copy)

We use the Tune Method to evaluate performance

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igama
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Re: Silent (smiling) minority.

Post by igama »

Ceilidh wrote:
... then I hope his product either fails in performance, or else Linn finds some way to shut him down..... professionally I have to worry about such things ...
-C
Ceilidh (and others). Relax - they work.

Right now, there are a few knowledgeable and smiling audiophiles listening to their newly "keeled" LP12s - at a fraction of the cost.

Please, do not feel concerned for Linn being copied - After all.... Is it not their heritage? (Ask Hamish, bless his soul.)

Right now, worldwide, there are dozens of CNC machines, beavering away, milling reasonably priced private copies of what is a very basic (but smart) item.

Please, do not feel concerned for Linn - After all.... there are enough gullable die-hard LP12 owners who will pay the Keel price to keep Linn smiling. (...all the way to the bank).

Ridiculous Keel price aside - it is still a fine turntable.

Silent, (smiling) minority.
Last edited by igama on 2008-10-10 17:49, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Music Lover »

ok but what about the performance?
It's all about musical understanding!
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Post by lejonklou »

It sounds like you are the manufacturer of the copy, igama.

If so, could you please report on how the copy performs compared to an original Keel.

Otherwise your claim that "they work" is rather pointless.
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Post by igama »

No, I am not the manufacturer.

I should imagine most people cutting their own small batch units for close friends will not advertise the fact. Especially in the UK.

Elsewhere (AP & USA) they do not seem to be concerned.
(heres a link to another in the states - http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?for ... light=keel

Needless to say, the clones are sounding very very good.
In one session, one group of several LP12 owners could not tell the difference. For unbiased & controlled a/b report(s) - I suggest be patient, they will come.

Now, I gracefully withdraw from the debate - and listen to my non-linn keeled LP12.
Enjoy.
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Post by Chris Morton »

Pricing is always a tricky issue. It's all about what the market can take and she canney take-it nmore.

I sympathize with Linn somewhat in that really you pay for the benefits the product bring (value pricing) and the Keeled Linn is just wonderfully better to a degree that warrants the price tag :mrgreen:

I bought the real thing and love it. I have no regrets about what I paid for it.

With any product, the customer is going to get troubled by pricing if the vendor's parts and manufacturing costs are revealed on "luxury" items. What do you think the gross margin is on a Rolex? Don't be fooled by the idea that these are manufactured by elves at the top of the Matterhorn :mrgreen:

In the case of the Keel, Linn are totally naked :shock:

I wonder what the legal ramifications are for those copying the design. The one referenced at the beginning of this thread seems considerably more convenient that Linn's version: will take an arm collar and therefore other arms; allows fitting of the pre-Cirkus bearing.

Some good creative work here!
LP12 SE/Radikal/Urika,KK, Aktiv Isobariks
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Linn Engineer's Comment on Linn Forums

Post by Ceilidh »

Hi Everybody,

Most people here seem to spend time on the official Linn Forums as well, so the following is probably old news -- but in case anyone's missed it, there was a Keel-copy post from a Linn engineer (#32 "RobM", below) that does a good job of expressing future R&D concerns.

Here's the link (if there are no copyright issues, I suppose I (or someone) could also cut & paste? -- please advise!); RobM's #32 is the second post on page 4:

http://forums.linn.co.uk/bb/showthread. ... 982&page=4

-C
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Post by lejonklou »

Thanks for the link, Ceilidh. I barely have time for one forum, so I haven't read anything over there in a long time.

There are two things in RobM's reply that I find interesting. The first one is the claim that "the better a product is, the more time and resources we have to put in to get another significant improvement".

This could be true in some cases, perhaps including the Keel. But in general I think it's incorrect. There is constant progress being made in electronics and other technologies that can be incorporated into new products. Developing a really good product today shouldn't take much more time or resources than it did 10 years ago (apart from the fact that regulations are more difficult to comply with these days). And because both tools and parts are now of higher quality, the resulting product is very likely to be better than the old one.

[Some people, however, think that general progress will take care of everything and that all new products are automatically better than old ones. This is not true. Attention to detail is usually far more important than quality of parts.]

The second thing is that he states "we belief that we should treat other people the way we want to be treated ouselves". This I believe is called the Golden Rule in philosophy. I like it and I remember Ivor quoting it several times in the past when talking about how Linn and retailers should treat their customers. Nice to hear that it's still the norm at R&D.
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Post by Ceilidh »

lejonklou wrote: This could be true in some cases, perhaps including the Keel. But in general I think it's incorrect. There is constant progress being made in electronics and other technologies that can be incorporated into new products. Developing a really good product today shouldn't take much more time or resources than it did 10 years ago (apart from the fact that regulations are more difficult to comply with these days). And because both tools and parts are now of higher quality, the resulting product is very likely to be better than the old one.
Mr. Lejonklou,

If I may elaborate (or perhaps comment on?) your above point:

As you know, I've worked in robotics, and that's a discipline that's equal parts electronics, software, and mechanical engineering (indeed it's usually the mechanical engineering aspects that trip up new entrants to the field -- get the ME a little wrong, and your control systems face all sorts of feedback distortions they were never designed to deal with...). And with ME, I would tend to agree with the Linn engineer's contention that as a piece of mechanical hardware becomes more refined, further improvements become progressively more difficult and expensive to devise.

With electronics (and indirectly with software), we have Moore's Law driving an historically unprecedented pace of technological innovation. Mechanical Engineering does not so emphatically benefit from Moore's Law: there are advances in simulation software and in fabrication/ assembly techniques that do speed the development process, but fundamentally we're still dealing with an "analog" hunk of metal (or wood, composite, fiber, etc.) that we have to cut, cast, hone, machine, fabricate, or otherwise physically process, and which will maddenly try to behave in the way it wants to behave, irrespective of what we've "designed" it to do. The extreme physicality of mechanical engineering means that, development tools notwithstanding, the pace of ME technological innovation far lags that seen in electronics or software, and indeed is arguably not orders of magnitude greater than what we've seen over the past few centuries.

As a result, I feel for Linn. Mechanical devices like the Keel can easily soak up hundreds and thousands of man-hours to develop, and yet they quickly draw scores of would-be copycats. The danger for our community (as audio and Linn enthusiasts) is that if enough business is lost to those copycats (irrespective of whether the copies are in fact as good as the originals), the R&D managers at Linn might turn a cold eye to future proposed improvements that center on mechanical bits (for those who have not worked in corporate R&D, such a scenario happens all the time: bright enthusiastic engineers identify a promising research avenue to pursue, and finance-constrained managers step in to halt the work if the innovations can't be protected). And for LP enthusiasts, that would be a shame....

-C
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Post by ThomasOK »

Ceilidh wrote:
lejonklou wrote: This could be true in some cases, perhaps including the Keel. But in general I think it's incorrect. There is constant progress being made in electronics and other technologies that can be incorporated into new products. Developing a really good product today shouldn't take much more time or resources than it did 10 years ago (apart from the fact that regulations are more difficult to comply with these days). And because both tools and parts are now of higher quality, the resulting product is very likely to be better than the old one.
Mr. Lejonklou,

If I may elaborate (or perhaps comment on?) your above point:

As you know, I've worked in robotics, and that's a discipline that's equal parts electronics, software, and mechanical engineering (indeed it's usually the mechanical engineering aspects that trip up new entrants to the field -- get the ME a little wrong, and your control systems face all sorts of feedback distortions they were never designed to deal with...). And with ME, I would tend to agree with the Linn engineer's contention that as a piece of mechanical hardware becomes more refined, further improvements become progressively more difficult and expensive to devise.

With electronics (and indirectly with software), we have Moore's Law driving an historically unprecedented pace of technological innovation. Mechanical Engineering does not so emphatically benefit from Moore's Law: there are advances in simulation software and in fabrication/ assembly techniques that do speed the development process, but fundamentally we're still dealing with an "analog" hunk of metal (or wood, composite, fiber, etc.) that we have to cut, cast, hone, machine, fabricate, or otherwise physically process, and which will maddenly try to behave in the way it wants to behave, irrespective of what we've "designed" it to do. The extreme physicality of mechanical engineering means that, development tools notwithstanding, the pace of ME technological innovation far lags that seen in electronics or software, and indeed is arguably not orders of magnitude greater than what we've seen over the past few centuries.

As a result, I feel for Linn. Mechanical devices like the Keel can easily soak up hundreds and thousands of man-hours to develop, and yet they quickly draw scores of would-be copycats. The danger for our community (as audio and Linn enthusiasts) is that if enough business is lost to those copycats (irrespective of whether the copies are in fact as good as the originals), the R&D managers at Linn might turn a cold eye to future proposed improvements that center on mechanical bits (for those who have not worked in corporate R&D, such a scenario happens all the time: bright enthusiastic engineers identify a promising research avenue to pursue, and finance-constrained managers step in to halt the work if the innovations can't be protected). And for LP enthusiasts, that would be a shame....

-C
This is very well stated, Ceilidh, and I agree with your comments.

I feel, however, that even in electronics the comments of RobM hold true. While there is certainly much progress in electronics (Moore's law, etc.) most of that progress is geared toward making digital components smaller, faster, more powerful and more efficient. Analog components also benefit from the same kinds of research as they have to be made smaller, cooler and more efficient in order to keep up with the demands of ever more power in ever smaller cases. BUT almost none of this development is undertaken with an eye towards making music reproducing systems sound better. And often when the work done is geared toward Hi-Fi (audiophile caps, wires, fuses, etc.) it doesn't actually improve the musical ability of those products .

While I agree that "Developing a really good product today shouldn't take much more time or resources than it did 10 years ago", I think that developing a product that redefines "reference" by improving on a product like the Klimax Kontrol or Solo has to be much more difficult. Do electronic parts - especially analog ones - really improve that much over time that a product that was the best that could be made 5 years ago can be easily outperformed by a newer unit? Considering how long Linn reference units remain without upgrade while still remaining superior to all competitors, it seems that is not the case.
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Post by lejonklou »

ThomasOK wrote:Do electronic parts - especially analog ones - really improve that much over time that a product that was the best that could be made 5 years ago can be easily outperformed by a newer unit?
Easily - no. But if made with the same guiding principles and attention to detail - yes!

Operational amplifiers, digital/analog converters and volume control circuits are some of the parts that have improved enormously during the last ten years. And some of them have improved a lot during the last few years.

They are just building blocks, so how you put them to use still determines what performance you end up with. For example: The volume control chip used in the new Klimax Kontrol can be made to sound both high-end-impressive-and-very-out-of-tune and very-much-in-tune-and-musically-involving. I know, I've played around with it a lot and it's in my next product.
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Post by ThomasOK »

Circuit parts are definitely out of my league and one of your specialities (as they should be) so I bow to your expertise in this respect.:)

Glad to hear that Linn are using the best of the latest parts in their update and apparently using them properly.
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Post by bbyte »

Hey, hey! What is in current development for Lejonklou products? A pre-amp? A Line-stage one? :wink:
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Post by Music Lover »

lejonklou wrote: The volume control chip used in the new Klimax Kontrol can be made to sound both high-end-impressive-and-very-out-of-tune and very-much-in-tune-and-musically-involving. I know, I've played around with it a lot and it's in my next product.
So you had the chance studying the new Kontrol, what else did you observe?
Any other changes over the years (PSU, cables etc)...
And what's your thoughts overall on the new circuit board, particular the increase in gain?
It's all about musical understanding!
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Post by lejonklou »

bbyte wrote:Hey, hey! What is in current development for Lejonklou products?
Yes, preamps. Worked on them since the beginning of this year. The upgrade of Slipsik to version 4 was a spin-off from work on a preamp output stage.
Music Lover wrote:So you had the chance studying the new Kontrol, what else did you observe?
Sorry, I haven't seen the interior of the new Kontrol.

And I didn't know about the increase in gain. How much is it increased? And is it compensated for in the displaying of volume? Or is volume 80 no longer unity gain? That would be strange...
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Post by Music Lover »

A Linn rep wrote on Linn forum that unity gain was 90 in old Kontrol but is 80 in new Kontrol to get it in-line with the other Linn pre's.
Comments?
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Post by lejonklou »

:?: I thought 80 was unity gain on all Linn preamps!

Well, then the change certainly makes sense.

But this doesn't mean that there is any more gain in the new Kontrol. It could just as well be only the numbers that have changed. And the min and max volume limits will have to be moved 10 steps as well.

With gain I mean the amount of voltage gain in each stage of the preamp. Perhaps you meant maximum gain? That should be 10 dB higher than before.
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Post by ThomasOK »

Back to the Keel and Keel copy subject there has been a thread on the Linn forums talking about the Sole subchassis. After a number of posts by others about the merits of the Sole, Keel, etc. a Linn Senior Mechanical Design Engineer posted a substantial comment, with photos, about the development of the Keel and the Ekos SE that had some enlightening information. I felt people here would find it interesting so here is the link to the proper page:

http://forums.linn.co.uk/bb/showthread. ... 079&page=4
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Post by lejonklou »

Thanks. This is one of the best discussions I've read on the Linn forums. And as usual your comments are spot on.

Frankly, people who are afraid of ringing parts don't have any practical or theoretical experience with these things. The Keel rings like a bell if properly suspended alone in free air. This is an sign of good structural integrity. Inside an LP12 it doesn't ring at all, which is very simple to confirm.
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Post by Music Lover »

lejonklou wrote: Frankly, people who are afraid of ringing parts don't have any practical or theoretical experience with these things.
You are right.
Old Linnies have years of "optimal ringing" experience due to tweaking&adjusting systems.
Remember the metal Kan/Sara/Isobarik stands and pillows :mrgreen:
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Post by lejonklou »

I'm afraid I don't remember the pillows in the stands...

Please remind me!
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Post by Music Lover »

lejonklou wrote:I'm afraid I don't remember the pillows in the stands...

Please remind me!
Running late 80s active Isobariks (stands with plates) a pillow inside the stand made an improvement. :D
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Post by ThomasOK »

Music Lover wrote:
lejonklou wrote:I'm afraid I don't remember the pillows in the stands...

Please remind me!
Running late 80s active Isobariks (stands with plates) a pillow inside the stand made an improvement. :D
My set of Isobariks has a very large block of foam that fills up most of the space within the stand (with panels) and it does indeed make an improvement. I'm not sure if it has anything to do with ringing of the frame or if it just keeps the panels from resonating, but it works.
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Post by ThomasOK »

lejonklou wrote:Thanks. This is one of the best discussions I've read on the Linn forums. And as usual your comments are spot on.

Frankly, people who are afraid of ringing parts don't have any practical or theoretical experience with these things. The Keel rings like a bell if properly suspended alone in free air. This is an sign of good structural integrity. Inside an LP12 it doesn't ring at all, which is very simple to confirm.
I agree it is one of the better discussions there. It is because of the occasional good discussion that I check into it from time to time. However, I do find the Lejonklou forum to be clearer and more useful because of the focus it has on Tune method and hierarchy. The Linn forum does often get sidetracked (somewhat like Pink Fish - although not as badly or as often) on tangents having little to do with how musical equipment or upgrades are. Here is a glaring example from the Linn forum:

"I'm surprised your ears cannot hear the benefits of the Ringmat, there not subtle... yes the felt mat is more musical but that alone does not make it better, why spend all that dosh on trying to achieve a really good sound when something like a £20 mat is hiding little details in the music? I want to hear what is on the record not just a musical tune."

I think this post pretty much sums up the problem. (The name is omitted to protect the guilty.) I will say that it was immediately challenged by another poster (not me) who said he prefers the musical message. But it shows once again the problem with getting caught up with sound rather than music. I can see a pattern with the one who posted the quote as he is also the one who was defending the Sole (which he purchased but has not yet fully installed) with claims that made no sense. He also details, in a different thread, his lengthy work on purchasing a plinth from Chris in which he makes it obvious that his first concern was appearance despite a number of posts in the thread talking about the sound of the plinths. His original first choice was Cocobolo which is a quite beautiful wood but is not one of the better sounding ones - a good indication of his priorities.

It is refreshing to have a forum like this where things are much more focused on what is most important to the musical ability of a Hi-Fi system. :)
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Post by Moomintroll »

Great post Tom. I too was amazed at reading "yes the felt mat is more musical but that alone does not make it better" That's where I've been going wrong.

After almost 30 years of owning Linn equipment I'd forgotten that this kind of thinking was still prevalent. Silly me.

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Post by Charlie1 »

I want to hear what is on the record not just a musical tune.
I think maybe he hasn't realised the full implications of 'a musical tune', as he puts it. Some people seem to think tunefulness is just a means of better producing melody. I don't think they fully realise that it has wider implications on our understanding and enjoyment of the music itself.
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