Entry Level Lejonklou MC

[Charlie1]

Hi Fredrik,
To what extent, if any, did the Singularity help with your current project - not wanting you to give anything important away?
Will you design it to land within a specific cost range or will you it design first and then work out the resulting cost?
Will it have adjustable settings or just set to Krystal? These Goldring refurbs of old Linn MCs seem popular.
Thanks,

[ThomasOK]

I don't know how much Fredrik wants to talk about this yet but I can give you a couple of general answers to your questions. First, the next MC phono stage is substantially based on the work done on the SINGularity, unless things change radically going forward.

Second, I don't believe Fredrik ever designs something to land in a specific cost range. He creates a design and refines it until he is happy with it. When he feels he has a finalized design then he costs it and comes up with the final price. I didn't know the price of the SINGularity until a week or two before it was shown as it ended up needing cooling vents top and bottom to keep one of the circuits running optimally. This required two more machine operations, raising the cost a bit further. (I recall Fredrik telling me the machining people were only charging him an arm and two legs to cut the vent holes in the bottom!) The only likely exception is the Kinki/Gaio series, which were designed to be a lower price MM phono stage for those with less expensive turntables. But even there they weren't built to a price, they were made as simpler to manufacture and a bit less precise, but pricing was again determined when Fredrik was happy with them.

Finally, if it goes forward as it is looking like it will, I believe it will have adjustable loading, but I could be wrong on this. Note that the loading on all Linn MC cartridges are pretty close, the reason they all work well with the Urika 1, Linto, Kairn MC stage, etc. So a single setting would be adequate, if not quite optimum, for them. But when you wade into the ocean of other LOMCs the loading requirements are all over the place. This would be the bigger reason for adjustable loading, as well as allowing the customer to change cartridges and still be able to achieve optimum perfromance.

[Charlie1]

Thanks Thomas.

Finally, if it goes forward as it is looking like it will, I believe it will have adjustable loading, but I could be wrong on this. Note that the loading on all Linn MC cartridges are pretty close, the reason they all work well with the Urika 1, Linto, Kairn MC stage, etc. So a single setting would be adequate, if not quite optimum, for them. But when you wade into the ocean of other LOMCs the loading requirements are all over the place. This would be the bigger reason for adjustable loading, as well as allowing the customer to change cartridges and still be able to achieve optimum perfromance.

Good point about Linn carts and I'm very happy with my Krystal into Urika and I also forgot the Linto wasn't adjustable either.

I've never actually experinced how much difference it can make to perfectly match the loading because I've never owned an adjustable MC.

[lejonklou]

Charlie; thanks for asking!
Thomas; thanks for informing!

I'm happy to talk about this, especially now that I've digged myself out of a hole (as mentioned in a different thread, I just discovered a mistake I made several months ago, when thinking component Z was a musically superior choice, replacing the reliable and proven component T - which proved to be an illusion and a subtle disaster).

There are a bunch of designs possible, all derived from the SINGularity circuit.

First option: I could use the SINGularity design, exactly the same, and then do everything as inexpensively as possible. That is: Aluminium cases, standard boards, machine soldered and the second best selection of some components that are really rare in their optimal selection (those that require buying a thousand to get a dozen).
I am building a pair of these "SINGularity Al" right now and I think they will sound awesome. The only thing that annoys me is that they will still be rather expensive. The components cost a lot as some need to be selected from many for the circuit to work properly. The input stage costs as 15 identical but unselected input stages. It's not that an unselected stage sounds worse, it doesn't even work properly, as when heating up, its parameters drift away until it stops working.
So: Great but expensive. Not yet sure exactly how expensive.

Second option, one step down from "SINGularity Al", is to make a stereo unit instead of two Mono ones. The advantage is that it's much cheaper. Two power supplies instead of four, one case instead of two, one circuit board instead of two - lots of expenses are simply cut in half.
I have more or less abandoned this design, as the step down from the dual Mono "SINGularity Al" is considerable. Like from Sagatun Mono to Sagatun stereo - and then some more, as the phono preamp is higher in the hierarchy and therefore has greater impact.

Third option: A Slipsik sized unit in stereo, with a conventional encapsulated toroid transformer, copper screening and various tweaks - just like in Slipsik 7. This prototype is playing in my living room and now that I found the mistake I made in it, it's a joy to listen to. The board is far from as expensive to make, as I've made a compromise to the SINGularity circuit, which makes most of the expensive component selections unnecessary. The compromise is really interesting - I wrote down twelve ways of doing it and tested them one by one, starting late last year. The very last and most simple one turned out to have the least negative impact on musicality - quite a surprise. And then after having established the values (by calculation and then by ear), I tested 30 different component choices and found one of the least expensive to be most musical - again a surprise hearing the "supposedly best" and the "audio grades" being humiliated by standard high reliability ones.
Two challenges remain:
Squeeze all the components onto a board that fits the Slipsik case. Not easy.
See whether the costs can be cut some more.

Not sure which design will be ready first.

All input welcome!

[lejonklou]

Forgot to mention:

First and second option can have adjustable load.

Third option would need to be fixed load. Haven't figured out how to make it adjustable - there's no room for it!

[Charlie1]

Option 1 sounds like it would mostly be of interest to Kandid owners so a smallish market but I'm guessing the cost would be £3k or higher. Also, how many of these customers are now running Urika 2 and can be ruled out? I reckon its quite a lot now especially the owners that had already sold their analogue preamp - I sometimes wonder if it was Linn's plan to push as many owners as possible to DVC before introducing the Urika 2 but off topic :)

Option 2 sounds like it would appeal to a Kandid/Krystal owners. I know you don't like the performance drop but unless you offer both options 1 and 2 then buyers would never know what they are missing out on.

Option 3 fits in nicely with the Lejonklou ethos of offering great musicality at reasonable cost and would also appeal to someone looking to partner it with a refurbed Linn MC. Also, I assume a smaller proportion of customers within this price bracket will be Exakt owners thinking ahead to Urika 2. I think it would need to beat a Linto and MC card in Linn amps though. Mind you, not sure how many Linto units are on the second hand market these days so perhaps not relevant.

Which one are you most excited about developing?

[lejonklou]

Thanks for the info on the UK Linn landscape, Charlie.

The products I develop are always something I want myself and that doesn't seem to exist on the market. In the case of MC phono preamps (and, apart from some exceptions, in HiFi generally), I feel that things have been moving in the wrong direction for a long time now. Instead of bringing a stronger musical thrill and insight, the phono stages (and HiFi) of the last decades have tried pleasing audiophiles and their focus on detail, resolution, clarity, dynamics, soundstage, low noise, low distortion, blackness between notes and all of that nonsense that none of us ever think or care about when we experience live music.

I remember the many Aha!-moments every time I first heard a familiar song being played by an LP12. Songs I previously thought I knew and now understood in a completely different way. The element of humor was a frequent one. Lots of songs that I'd interpreted as serious, stiff or even grave - either the lyrics or how the piece was played - I suddenly realized the ease and finesse, sometimes weightlessness, of. And when the moment turned into grave, it was graver than I'd ever known it to be. Those were revelations. Musical revelations.

How much progress has actually been made in that department during the last decade? Is it progressing at all or is it going downhill? Those who are happy that their turntable now sounds as clean as their digital source are not my audience.

SINGularity was a statement to show that real progress in the musical domain is still possible. The next step is to retain as much as possible of that progress - of the thrill! - while cutting costs.

The only product that fits your subject line is the Slipsik sized unit and currently I'm really excited about how to optimally do the necessary compromises while still keeping as much of the thrill as possible. It's really tricky as there are so many parameters that can be tuned and each one skews the music in a certain direction. The focus and intention of the person doing this tuning determines everything, musically.

[u252agz]

Slipsik sized ( and priced ?) unit would tempt Adikt users like me who might wish to dabble with Krystal.

[Charlie1]

Slipsik sized ( and priced ?) unit woukd tempt Adikt users like me who might wish to dabble with Krystal.

Good point. An itch that many people need to scratch. I recall myself really wanting an MC. It was something I'd aspired to through a dozen or more years of K9 ownership.

[matthias]

Instead of bringing a stronger musical thrill and insight, the phono stages (and HiFi) of the last decades have tried pleasing audiophiles and their focus on detail, resolution, clarity, dynamics, soundstage, low noise, low distortion, blackness between notes and all of that nonsense that none of us ever think or care about when we experience live music.

Fredrik,

exactly my impression after visiting High End Munich last month.

Matt

[Charlie1]

SINGularity was a statement to show that real progress in the musical domain is still possible. The next step is to retain as much as possible of that progress - of the thrill! - while cutting costs.

That sounds like a great idea.

The only product that fits your subject line is the Slipsik sized unit and currently I'm really excited about how to optimally do the necessary compromises while still keeping as much of the thrill as possible. It's really tricky as there are so many parameters that can be tuned and each one skews the music in a certain direction. The focus and intention of the person doing this tuning determines everything, musically.

Hope you continue to make good progress :)

[David Neel]

This is one Kandid user who is sticking with Urika 1 for the time being, at least until there's a Lejonklou MC stage I can afford. I have an ADS/3 so I'm electronically ready for Urika 2. But, I prefer my Sagatun Monos to using the DVC in the ADS/3, which means that I have my doubts about how good Urika 2 might sound in my system, and do not want to be locked in to proprietary technology - I don't envisage an exakt future.

So, if option 3 can outperform Urika 1, of course count me in! But if option 1 is significantly better, and I can afford it (unlike Singularity) that is more interesting.

[u252agz]

Sounds like we would like Two new MC stages:

1 Slipsik sized unit which would be great value for money and an entry level for Krystal level cartridge

2 Aluminium Singularity which would be more musical than Urika 1 but hopefully not too much more expensive.


I think with the increasing awareness of the Radkikal /Trampolin issue and the reluctance of some Linn dealers to accept / fix it; a Lejonklou alternative(s) to Urika would be great.

[Charlie1]

Squeeze all the components onto a board that fits the Slipsik case. Not easy.

I'm sure it's not your ideal solution but could you make the Slipsik case slightly longer? Then it would appear the same on the shelf and you could retain the front and end plates.

Sounds like we would like Two new MC stages:

It does seem that way.

[lunch]

I think with the increasing awareness of the Radkikal /Trampolin issue and the reluctance of some Linn dealers to accept / fix it; a Lejonklou alternative(s) to Urika would be great.

I don't follow you on this one. How does a Urika competitor solve the issue of the Trampolin foot touching the Radikal?

[mrco99]

Hi Fredrik,

I'd say go with the design you're most thrilled with yourself - which looks like #3?

If the Slipsik case of option 3 would appear to be too small couldn't you fit all into a black casing as suggested in option 2 - so stereo version with torodial transformer in a single black SINGularity format enclosure?

It will raise the costs compared to the smaller and existing Slipsik casing as you need to invest in a new production batch but there may be more designs suitable to fit the new format?

Option 1 would remain interesting too, at least knowing how it would perform and what it's price tag would sum up to. Having SINGularity as the ultimate reference, there may still be room price- and performance-wise for another MC phono stage positioned in between SINGularity and the "MC Slipsik" one.

[matthias]

I'd say go with the design you're most thrilled with yourself - which looks like #3?

If the Slipsik case of option 3 would appear to be too small couldn't you fit all into a black casing as suggested in option 2 - so stereo version with torodial transformer in a single black SINGularity format enclosure?

+1
Slipsik case should not be the target.
If it sounds better in a bigger case then go for it.

BTW, I asked some time ago for variable gain to fit EMT cartridges.
I suppose this is not possible with #3 as well?

Matt

[u252agz]

I think with the increasing awareness of the Radkikal /Trampolin issue and the reluctance of some Linn dealers to accept / fix it; a Lejonklou alternative(s) to Urika would be great.

I don't follow you on this one. How does a Urika competitor solve the issue of the Trampolin foot touching the Radikal?

This is my thinking;

The only way one can use a Urika is with a Trampolin and therefore one runs the risk of the Radikal being affected.

So the least important part of the LP 12 heirarchy suddenly fouls up the most important part of the turntable - the power supply.

With any third party MC stage one could use the standard Baseboard ( as I do ) and not have any sleepless nights regarding the Radikal/Trampolin.

I am not sure of how much advantage a Trampolin gives to an LP12 but for me I would rather stick with the Baseboard and use non Urika MC stages.

[lejonklou]

Hi everyone!

Hope you had a joyous Midsommar with lots of dancing around poles. I did!

Some answers:

Slipsik sized ( and priced ?) unit would tempt Adikt users like me who might wish to dabble with Krystal.

OK! Price wise, I think it will end up at Slipsik+50%. The main board for the MC version costs 2.5 times as much as the one in Slipsik 7, while many other parts are the same or very similar. Will do my best to price it as low as possible!

So, if option 3 can outperform Urika 1, of course count me in! But if option 1 is significantly better, and I can afford it (unlike Singularity) that is more interesting.

I'm really excited to hear people's impressions of the Slipsik sized unit (option 3) versus Urika. Perhaps I should lend the prototype to someone who wants to make the comparison? Due to the propriety nature of Urika, it requires some fiddling with changing cables in the LP12.
Option 1 is something different altogether, but would be a lot more expensive.

I'm sure it's not your ideal solution but could you make the Slipsik case slightly longer? Then it would appear the same on the shelf and you could retain the front and end plates.

Good idea! The Slipsik/Gaio case is a standard one that I buy in large quantities and then select the best looking ones. 5-6 out of 10 can be used, the remaining 4-5 out of 10 are recycled. There is a longer version of it, but it's too long. Making one that is in between those two would be perfect, but then I'd have to arrange the manufacturing myself and it becomes a lot more expensive. I'd have to make several thousands of it. Maybe one day!

I'd say go with the design you're most thrilled with yourself - which looks like #3?

At the moment, I'm thrilled by all options, but number 3 appears closest to completion.

If the Slipsik case of option 3 would appear to be too small couldn't you fit all into a black casing as suggested in option 2 - so stereo version with torodial transformer in a single black SINGularity format enclosure?

Correct, there is a fourth option. And a fifth rather interesting one as well (I'll leave it to you to figure that one out).

The only way to make a rational decision regarding which models make most sense is of course to compare them with each other, playing music. Regardless of how much they cost to build, I find some designs really stand out and make you go Wow! Those are the ones I should make.

[David Neel]

If I've understood, option 3 can be improved by running stereo in one Tundra sized box, or mono in two Slipsik sized boxes? What about dual mono in one Tundra sized box?
And if the price for option 3 is approximately Slipsik + 50%, then it will cost more than a Urika 1 is worth secondhand, so to be commercially viable amongst the Linn fraternity would need to outperform it?
If you need volunteers to compare any prototypes, there's a Urika 1 right here in my LP12....

[lejonklou]

If I've understood, option 3 can be improved by running stereo in one Tundra sized box, or mono in two Slipsik sized boxes? What about dual mono in one Tundra sized box?

The advantage of a bigger box is that there's room for two switch mode power supplies. These are more costly but perform better than the conventional power supply that can be housed in a Slipsik/Gaio case.

Yes, a "Slipsik MC" can be Mono! That was the fifth option I was hinting at. Then you need two of them for stereo. Not quite twice the cost, as each main board is less expensive to make than the stereo one. How much better would it be? I haven't tested that yet. Might not be the ultimate in price/performance compared to the other options.

Dual Mono in one case: The design already is dual Mono inside, just like Sagatun and Tundra stereo is. But in a single case, the power supplies are shared and the chassis ground too. This is, rather surprisingly, quite a drawback. So for REAL Mono, with all the advantages that it brings, two cases are needed. Then both the signal, signal ground and chassis ground will be completely isolated from one another.

And if the price for option 3 is approximately Slipsik + 50%, then it will cost more than a Urika 1 is worth secondhand, so to be commercially viable amongst the Linn fraternity would need to outperform it?
If you need volunteers to compare any prototypes, there's a Urika 1 right here in my LP12....

I count on it being better, but the final judgement is yours, not mine. That's why I suggested someone might want to have a listen before it's released.

Apart from a Urika, you need a regular tonearm cable, preferably a grey T-kable. And you need to open the LP12 and change from Urika to T-kable. Linn have cleverly made it rather tricky to compare Urika to other MC phono preamps...

[lejonklou]

BTW, I asked some time ago for variable gain to fit EMT cartridges.
I suppose this is not possible with #3 as well?

Sorry Matthias, I forgot your question.

The EMT's have 1 mV of output, right?

I'm afraid none of my MC phono stages will be able to handle that. They are all built around a very high gain input, so the maximum level of the cartridge becomes 0.4 mV. A perfect match for low level MC's.

I'd have to start from scratch to make something suited to medium or high level MC's. Something right in between Slipsik 7 and SINGularity. The input is what I have always spent the most time on, though - it's so important to get it perfectly balanced.

[u252agz]

Hi everyone!

Hope you had a joyous Midsommar with lots of dancing around poles. I did!

Some answers:

Slipsik sized ( and priced ?) unit would tempt Adikt users like me who might wish to dabble with Krystal.

OK! Price wise, I think it will end up at Slipsik+50%. The main board for the MC version costs 2.5 times as much as the one in Slipsik 7, while many other parts are the same or very similar. Will do my best to price it as low as possible!

I would love to compare my Adikt/Slipsik 7 with Krystal/Lejonklou MC stage and at the price point, this would certainly become an option.

I always feel I may be missing out with an MM cartridge and once I have gotten my moneys worth with my Adikt ( on its second stylus) - the Krystal/MC phonostage could be my last LP12 upgrade.

[matthias]

The EMT's have 1 mV of output, right?
I'm afraid none of my MC phono stages will be able to handle that. They are all built around a very high gain input, so the maximum level of the cartridge becomes 0.4 mV. A perfect match for low level MC's.
I'd have to start from scratch to make something suited to medium or high level MC's. Something right in between Slipsik 7 and SINGularity. The input is what I have always spent the most time on, though - it's so important to get it perfectly balanced.

Thanks Fredrik,
yes, the output is 1 mV.
Maybe the best solution would be Slipsik7 plus a suitable transformer.

Matt