Since you are all having such a fun time with this I'll throw in one more variation. Same track, recorded at the same time in the same way but with one interesting change:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/r3lgviqlcatju ... U.m4a?dl=0
Playground for practical listening exercises
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices
The LP12 Whisperer
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices
My ears are grateful. The purist in me finds this a lot better. Thank you. :-)
It’s that live feeling…………….
Re: Playground for practical listening exercices
Not so keen on that last one - seems a bit exaggerated, and not quite as together
Re: Playground for practical listening exercices
Normality is restored: beg to differ; still prefer #3 (-ARU) :)beck wrote:My ears are grateful. The purist in me finds this a lot better. Thank you. :-)
Re: Playground for practical listening exercices
Tokenbrit, you should consider joining my club in the fight against dry cleaned, soulless, unhuman reprodution of recorded music in our homes. I do feel a bit alone and could do with some help! :-)tokenbrit wrote:Normality is restored: beg to differ; still prefer #3 (-ARU) :)beck wrote:My ears are grateful. The purist in me finds this a lot better. Thank you. :-)
It’s that live feeling…………….
Re: Playground for practical listening exercices
Not easy. I think the last one might be the best. First one fun but a little exaggerated, second one a little too tight, third maybe the best. But not sure, as it wasn't easy.ThomasOK wrote:All right, lets try something a little different. From some comparisons I was making this weekend.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/40emedyk9xryu ... R.m4a?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/x4bw7qoh8o1zp ... R.m4a?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/59vzjydihyl75 ... U.m4a?dl=0
To the purists like beck I will apologize up front that this is from the 50th anniversary Sgt. Pepper's album. As such it is the new Giles Martin mix and was done in high-rez digital before going onto the vinyl. I didn't really think about it as I was doing the comparisons, we were just enjoying the music and having fun with the testing.
I'm getting a little bored with the secrecy, so I'm going to make a guess what you're doing. Based on how you name the clips, I think you're comparing Akurate and Klimax Radikal (hopefully moving the same electronics between the two enclosures). And then you're using some other phono stage than Urika and testing whether the Radikal sounds better when also powering a Urika (which you're not listening to, just powering).
Correct?
Re: Playground for practical listening exercices
I thought people preferred the secrecy so they wouldn't have preconceived notions of what it should sound like, maybe I was wrong. Still considering what I was doing I think blind was a better test.
Fredrik is close but not quite right. But first I will say that my favorite both in room and on the clips is KR, then I think it is ARU which I find close but different with third place KRU and AR bringing up the rear. So here is what is going on. This is indeed a Radikal test but there were no changes in phono stage, no swapping of the boards and no change in the surface they sat on - a Mimer K as is normal in my system. KR is Klimax Radikal and AR is Akurate Radikal but KRU is Klimax Radikal Upside-down and ARU is Akurate Radikal Upside-down! I told you guys to try this a while back but got little reply from it (although one of my local customers has been using his AR upside-down for a couple of months after reading my suggestion). In order to keep this as fair as possible I went over the Akurate Radikal at the store with my latest torques (one that Fredrik found that was slightly different than mine and was a bit better, and I found a new one for part of the front panel) to make sure everything was optimum. I got a set of the stick on rubber parts used in the Linn Akurate and Klimax feet and stripped the sticky stuff off them. These were placed under the tops of the units, in roughly the same positions as the normal feet, when they were upside down to give the same contact to the Mimer K. When turning them upside down I did it in such a way as to minimize cable crossing although some is obviously inevitable. The system was fully warmed up including the LP12 and the record had been played once before the clips were made so everything was flowing well.
The interesting thing here is that everyone felt the Klimax Radikal and the Akurate Radikal Upside-down were close and everybody put the Akurate Radikal right side up last! I also thought tokenbrit was right on with his assessment that there was something not quite together about the Klimax Radikal Upside-down. In overall choice I find ARU and KRU close but there is something just not right about KRU. But I still find it better than standard Akurate Radikal.
For those who aren't aware of this I should mention the interesting differnces in construction of the Klimax Radikal and the Akurate Radikal. Although they both use the same electronics, in an AR the main board is mounted to the bottom of the case using five of the seven possible mounting holes on the board and the Dynamik PSU is mounted to the side under a cover using three screws. On the KR the main board is actually mounted to the top (as in all Klimax pieces) and it only uses three of the mounting holes, two of which are the two not used on the AR. The Dynamik is also mounted to the top in a separate partition using the same three screws. Interestingly I found the torque on the screws holding the main board to the chassis to be best a little higher on the Klimax than on the Akurate. So this means that in normal position the boards on the KR are upside down and the main board on the AR is right side up with the power supply sideways!
Having tried the upside down thing a few times in the past, based on a hunch but not in such a scientific manner, I already felt it likely that the Radikal board sounds better mounted to the to top than the bottom, just like what I found with the LS-NAS interestingly enough. My hypothesis was that the differences reported by others in the Klimax vs. the Akurate Radikals might be in great measure because of that difference, rather than the casework or some other mysterious thing. So I'm not too surprised that the results we found here seem to bear that out. Would the AR be even better if the PSU board could be mounted in the same plane as the main one? Hard to say. As I and my friend found the KR to be the best in room, that could be part of the additional difference but so could the stronger case or the different mounting. Regardless the friend who was with me when we did the comparisons is trying to figure out how to afford the upgrade to the Klimax Radikal.
Now it would be even better to swap boards, as Fredrik had suggested. Unfortunately, time and the difficulty involved precluded me doing that as well. I may get to that some time in the future but not likely in the immediate future. (I only have so much free time on my weekends to play around with these things. Not to mention that I sometimes just like to kick back and actually enjoy my rather fine system!) But the moral of the story is if you have a Klimax Radikal you are doing just fine but if you have an Akurate Radikal you need to go get some feet and flip the sucker over!!!
Fredrik is close but not quite right. But first I will say that my favorite both in room and on the clips is KR, then I think it is ARU which I find close but different with third place KRU and AR bringing up the rear. So here is what is going on. This is indeed a Radikal test but there were no changes in phono stage, no swapping of the boards and no change in the surface they sat on - a Mimer K as is normal in my system. KR is Klimax Radikal and AR is Akurate Radikal but KRU is Klimax Radikal Upside-down and ARU is Akurate Radikal Upside-down! I told you guys to try this a while back but got little reply from it (although one of my local customers has been using his AR upside-down for a couple of months after reading my suggestion). In order to keep this as fair as possible I went over the Akurate Radikal at the store with my latest torques (one that Fredrik found that was slightly different than mine and was a bit better, and I found a new one for part of the front panel) to make sure everything was optimum. I got a set of the stick on rubber parts used in the Linn Akurate and Klimax feet and stripped the sticky stuff off them. These were placed under the tops of the units, in roughly the same positions as the normal feet, when they were upside down to give the same contact to the Mimer K. When turning them upside down I did it in such a way as to minimize cable crossing although some is obviously inevitable. The system was fully warmed up including the LP12 and the record had been played once before the clips were made so everything was flowing well.
The interesting thing here is that everyone felt the Klimax Radikal and the Akurate Radikal Upside-down were close and everybody put the Akurate Radikal right side up last! I also thought tokenbrit was right on with his assessment that there was something not quite together about the Klimax Radikal Upside-down. In overall choice I find ARU and KRU close but there is something just not right about KRU. But I still find it better than standard Akurate Radikal.
For those who aren't aware of this I should mention the interesting differnces in construction of the Klimax Radikal and the Akurate Radikal. Although they both use the same electronics, in an AR the main board is mounted to the bottom of the case using five of the seven possible mounting holes on the board and the Dynamik PSU is mounted to the side under a cover using three screws. On the KR the main board is actually mounted to the top (as in all Klimax pieces) and it only uses three of the mounting holes, two of which are the two not used on the AR. The Dynamik is also mounted to the top in a separate partition using the same three screws. Interestingly I found the torque on the screws holding the main board to the chassis to be best a little higher on the Klimax than on the Akurate. So this means that in normal position the boards on the KR are upside down and the main board on the AR is right side up with the power supply sideways!
Having tried the upside down thing a few times in the past, based on a hunch but not in such a scientific manner, I already felt it likely that the Radikal board sounds better mounted to the to top than the bottom, just like what I found with the LS-NAS interestingly enough. My hypothesis was that the differences reported by others in the Klimax vs. the Akurate Radikals might be in great measure because of that difference, rather than the casework or some other mysterious thing. So I'm not too surprised that the results we found here seem to bear that out. Would the AR be even better if the PSU board could be mounted in the same plane as the main one? Hard to say. As I and my friend found the KR to be the best in room, that could be part of the additional difference but so could the stronger case or the different mounting. Regardless the friend who was with me when we did the comparisons is trying to figure out how to afford the upgrade to the Klimax Radikal.
Now it would be even better to swap boards, as Fredrik had suggested. Unfortunately, time and the difficulty involved precluded me doing that as well. I may get to that some time in the future but not likely in the immediate future. (I only have so much free time on my weekends to play around with these things. Not to mention that I sometimes just like to kick back and actually enjoy my rather fine system!) But the moral of the story is if you have a Klimax Radikal you are doing just fine but if you have an Akurate Radikal you need to go get some feet and flip the sucker over!!!
The LP12 Whisperer
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices
Wow. That was interesting. Really hard to get to gribs with it listening to the clips.
The last clip (KRU) I heard as a different recording (but of course same track). In hindsight I hear some of the same changes in the ARU and KRU but knowing that they all are Giles Martin digital remastered version I actually think I would not turn anything around. It will though have to be tested “live” for me to make a decision.
The last clip (KRU) I heard as a different recording (but of course same track). In hindsight I hear some of the same changes in the ARU and KRU but knowing that they all are Giles Martin digital remastered version I actually think I would not turn anything around. It will though have to be tested “live” for me to make a decision.
It’s that live feeling…………….
Re: Playground for practical listening exercices
Well, come on over and have a listen!
The LP12 Whisperer
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Manufacturer, Distributor, Retailer and above all lover of music.
Re: Playground for practical listening exercices
On the next plane,..... oh I have a family to take care of and....and.... but thank you for the invite. :-)ThomasOK wrote:Well, come on over and have a listen!
Not questioning your findings but my own interpretation of them.
I would like to thank you for all the clips. I especially liked the series with the different support for the Sondek (different stands).
Did I miss the explanation regarding the above clips?lejonklou wrote:ThomasOK wrote:On to a few more clips. There are two different changes here and I thought pf posting them separately but they all tie together so i'm posting all three.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ovo35v8z1f45e ... 0.MP4?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/x3lv9u0zft4yh ... 1.MP4?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/8rl0t7hzhxlo0 ... 2.MP4?dl=0
Please excuse the bad start on clip 10, I must have had my finger over one of the mics when I pressed the start button, it gets to normal in a few seconds. You can always start the comparison later in the tracks. Note that I am making one change between 10 and 11 and a different change between 11 and 12 and I expect you will find those two closer. If you want to take it a step further you can also compare clip 12 to clip 8. Have fun.
It’s that live feeling…………….
Re: Playground for practical listening exercices
Late to the party. All very interesting. The difference does seem small leading me to think the KR is not really worth it, and yet, your customer is keen to get one, which is surprising.
FWIW, I think this was a good one to do blind due to expectation bias and all that.
FWIW, I think this was a good one to do blind due to expectation bias and all that.
Re: Playground for practical listening exercices
Very interesting Thomas!
Thanks and I do appreciate it being blind - I make my own tests blind whenever possible, which is quite often, especially when there's component values selected by switches involved.
What made me write that I was getting a little tired of it being blind was that I thought these last were related to the previous series of clips, which I'm still not sure whether we've been informed about. And together they were so many that I lost track of what was what and whether some were the same but with a different song.
I definitely need to try my Akurate Radikal placed upside down. And I do need to try it on my coming MC phono stage as well, although aesthetically it would require some rethinking of how the case is assembled and finished in order not to look like upside-down.
Do you feel that the difference (disregarding whether it's an improvement or a degradation) is bigger on the Akurate than on the Radikal? I would guess the main benefit is not that the circuit boards are hanging upside down, but rather how the lid of the case acts like an extra isolation between the shelf and the area where the circuit board is fastened. If that is the case, then the construction and attachment of the lid (now acting as bottom) will be more important than it is when simply acting as a cover on the case.
Thanks and I do appreciate it being blind - I make my own tests blind whenever possible, which is quite often, especially when there's component values selected by switches involved.
What made me write that I was getting a little tired of it being blind was that I thought these last were related to the previous series of clips, which I'm still not sure whether we've been informed about. And together they were so many that I lost track of what was what and whether some were the same but with a different song.
I definitely need to try my Akurate Radikal placed upside down. And I do need to try it on my coming MC phono stage as well, although aesthetically it would require some rethinking of how the case is assembled and finished in order not to look like upside-down.
Do you feel that the difference (disregarding whether it's an improvement or a degradation) is bigger on the Akurate than on the Radikal? I would guess the main benefit is not that the circuit boards are hanging upside down, but rather how the lid of the case acts like an extra isolation between the shelf and the area where the circuit board is fastened. If that is the case, then the construction and attachment of the lid (now acting as bottom) will be more important than it is when simply acting as a cover on the case.
Re: Playground for practical listening exercices
You are both right, I forgot to explain the previous set of three clips. Sorry about that!
Clips 10, 11 and 12 were a continuation of the surface the LP12 sits on, separated from the first batch so as not to overwhelm everybody and also as they are somewhat different in nature. For clips 10 and 11 I moved the Radikal to the front rack where it was sitting on an original Mimer, not a Mimer K and it was faced sideways. I also had to rearrange the Radikal and signal cables a little bit to make these comparisons work so they aren't strictly comparable to the earlier clips. Clip 10 is with the LP12 on the Mimer K and clip 11 is the LP12 on the NOKTable. Clip 12 is with the LP12 on the NOKTable and the Radikal moved back into its normal position on the Mimer K. The cable changes were left in place, as much as possible for this one, so the real difference between Clips 11 and 12 are the Radikal on an older Mimer vs. a Mimer K, whereas Clips 10 and 11 are Mimer K vs. NOKTable for the LP12 support.
I know these are relatively close clips and I was again trying to help answer the question of different supports. One thing that I find interesting is how close the Mimer K and NOKTable are as LP12 supports when nothing else is changed. Both do sound quite musical but I find I get into the NOKTable just a touch more. This was more obvious to both of us in the room so I might be somewhat reacting from memory, but trying to listen closely and dispassionately to the clips I still find 11 moves me a touch more. But I certainly sympathize with those that found little to choose from. To me clip 12 brings it all together as it puts the Radikal back on the better Mimer and I get even better movement with better balance too.
I suppose I could have tried LP12 on Mimer K and Radikal on NOKTable but I didn't think of it. That is mainly because in the past I have found electronics don't seem to like an Archidee as well as an LP12 does, with electronics sounding better on a different type of support. But I haven't tried this with a NOKTable. Clip 12 does represent how I normally have my system set up and should be the same as Clip 3 except for some slight rearrangement of the wiring, which is why I recorded that combination again.
That was the end of the clips of turntable supports, at least for the time being. I might try the heavy vs. normal metalwork again in the future but would probably be ways out.
Clips 10, 11 and 12 were a continuation of the surface the LP12 sits on, separated from the first batch so as not to overwhelm everybody and also as they are somewhat different in nature. For clips 10 and 11 I moved the Radikal to the front rack where it was sitting on an original Mimer, not a Mimer K and it was faced sideways. I also had to rearrange the Radikal and signal cables a little bit to make these comparisons work so they aren't strictly comparable to the earlier clips. Clip 10 is with the LP12 on the Mimer K and clip 11 is the LP12 on the NOKTable. Clip 12 is with the LP12 on the NOKTable and the Radikal moved back into its normal position on the Mimer K. The cable changes were left in place, as much as possible for this one, so the real difference between Clips 11 and 12 are the Radikal on an older Mimer vs. a Mimer K, whereas Clips 10 and 11 are Mimer K vs. NOKTable for the LP12 support.
I know these are relatively close clips and I was again trying to help answer the question of different supports. One thing that I find interesting is how close the Mimer K and NOKTable are as LP12 supports when nothing else is changed. Both do sound quite musical but I find I get into the NOKTable just a touch more. This was more obvious to both of us in the room so I might be somewhat reacting from memory, but trying to listen closely and dispassionately to the clips I still find 11 moves me a touch more. But I certainly sympathize with those that found little to choose from. To me clip 12 brings it all together as it puts the Radikal back on the better Mimer and I get even better movement with better balance too.
I suppose I could have tried LP12 on Mimer K and Radikal on NOKTable but I didn't think of it. That is mainly because in the past I have found electronics don't seem to like an Archidee as well as an LP12 does, with electronics sounding better on a different type of support. But I haven't tried this with a NOKTable. Clip 12 does represent how I normally have my system set up and should be the same as Clip 3 except for some slight rearrangement of the wiring, which is why I recorded that combination again.
That was the end of the clips of turntable supports, at least for the time being. I might try the heavy vs. normal metalwork again in the future but would probably be ways out.
The LP12 Whisperer
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices
I do believe the difference is bigger between the Akurate than it is for the Radikal when you reverse the orientation, and to me the clips show that. It could be that the Klimax casework gives better isolation of the electronics regardless, but it obviously still sounds better with the board upside down. I do also wonder what it is that makes these differences and it would be wonderful to understand them. But in the end I don't lose sleep over them (you're the designer - that is your job!) I just use whatever works. ;-)lejonklou wrote: Do you feel that the difference (disregarding whether it's an improvement or a degradation) is bigger on the Akurate than on the Radikal? I would guess the main benefit is not that the circuit boards are hanging upside down, but rather how the lid of the case acts like an extra isolation between the shelf and the area where the circuit board is fastened. If that is the case, then the construction and attachment of the lid (now acting as bottom) will be more important than it is when simply acting as a cover on the case.
Now for a couple more clips!!! (I just knew you couldn't wait!)
I don't think you will have a difficult time with these two - Debbie said it took one note. Still blind but guaranteed not to be turntable supports. Also not necessarily as scientific as the others but still interesting. This is still The Beatles off Sgt. Pepper's 50th anniversary, sorry tokenbrit (isn't it illegal for a Brit, even an ex-pat, not to like The Beatles?). I recorded the entire song in case anyone besides tokenbrit wanted to hear it all.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/p47b4egjnseos ... J.m4a?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/25zzei7vu0sux ... Q.m4a?dl=0
The LP12 Whisperer
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Spannko
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices
Thanks for the Noktable/MimerK comparison. On the evidence of that one recording, the Noktable does indeed sound slightly better with an LP12. Well done!
Re: Playground for practical listening exercices
I thought I did OK with 'demming the Sgt. Pepper's clips .. that's because I do like The Beatles. The sound did change a bit between the clips, which I know can throw me off, but I found the previous iClips easier than those recorded with your SLR (sorry)ThomasOK wrote: .. This is still The Beatles off Sgt. Pepper's 50th anniversary, sorry tokenbrit (isn't it illegal for a Brit, even an ex-pat, not to like The Beatles?). I recorded the entire song in case anyone besides tokenbrit wanted to hear it all.
I'll take a listen to your latest clips in their entirety .. at least for one - I may only listen to one note of the other ;)
Errmm, ... actually struggling with these because they sound so different from each other - I find it tough to ignore the sound, and the second clip sounds harsh to me. The first one appears quieter which makes it easier to listen to... but I don't know that it's more musical - it's tough to tell when it's that much quieter. Are they recorded at the same volume(s)?
Last edited by tokenbrit on 2018-07-26 19:56, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Playground for practical listening exercices
The first time I compared, I liked the first clip more at the very beginning when the opening melody plays. The second clip seemed to fluctuate a bit in speed and, like tokenbrit, it didn't sound as pleasing on the ear. But the more the song got going, the more I preferred the second clip. It just seemed more lively and enjoyable.
Now when I compare again (albeit on a Windows PC), I prefer the second clip all the time. The first one seems to draw some spirit out of band, especially John's singing.
My guess is that the first clip is the new digital LP and the second is an old analogue one.
For me, this is a good example of why it's better not to rush to a decision, which I have a tenancy to do.
Now when I compare again (albeit on a Windows PC), I prefer the second clip all the time. The first one seems to draw some spirit out of band, especially John's singing.
My guess is that the first clip is the new digital LP and the second is an old analogue one.
For me, this is a good example of why it's better not to rush to a decision, which I have a tenancy to do.
Re: Playground for practical listening exercices
I have a big request to make Thomas. Would it be possible for you to make (just the start of the track) the last two clips again with the use of your Canon. I do not get on well with the sound from your later files. I simply cannot connect the same way with them.
It’s that live feeling…………….
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Spannko
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices
I prefer the first clip. To me, it’s a bit more musical.
Re: Playground for practical listening exercices
This is pretty much my impression as well. First clip (SJ) seems to win easily on the first few seconds, but I'd consider it unwise to judge from a few seconds of wobbly organ notes. The more the song progresses, there's something engaging - but also a bit sloppy - about the second clip (SQ).Charlie1 wrote:The first time I compared, I liked the first clip more at the very beginning when the opening melody plays. The second clip seemed to fluctuate a bit in speed and, like tokenbrit, it didn't sound as pleasing on the ear. But the more the song got going, the more I preferred the second clip. It just seemed more lively and enjoyable.
Now when I compare again (albeit on a Windows PC), I prefer the second clip all the time. The first one seems to draw some spirit out of band, especially John's singing.
The main difference in sound is that there's much more bass in the second clip (SQ). To me it sounds as if you've connected the subwoofer, which isn't optimally installed and that's what's causing divided opinions and my "bit sloppy" impression (100% pure speculation on my part here!)
It could also be two different pair of speakers. First clip JBL 3677, second clip original Isobarik's?
Re: Playground for practical listening exercices
I also think tokenbrit is correct in suspecting the second clip is louder, or at least louder when the chorus kicks in. I just realised they have quite different volume profiles when you compare the two graphs. They seem similar volume during the versus though. Maybe this is digital compression applied to the first clip?
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Spannko
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices
I wondered if the speakers had been changed too. The sound presentation is quite different, and not like the earlier clips.
Re: Playground for practical listening exercices
Charlie1 has just told me what I should say about these two latest clips: “I agree with Charlie1!”. :-)
I have a big problem listening to these latest clips. I suspect it is the iphone 8 plus the technic used to make the files. My ears simply beg me to stop listening all the time. I do not like it.
This did not happen with the Canon clips. My problem I know. :-(
I have a big problem listening to these latest clips. I suspect it is the iphone 8 plus the technic used to make the files. My ears simply beg me to stop listening all the time. I do not like it.
This did not happen with the Canon clips. My problem I know. :-(
It’s that live feeling…………….
Re: Playground for practical listening exercices
I came to think of one thing:
Thomas, what app are you using when recording on the iPhone 8? I'm asking because I've found that on my iPhones, up to model 7 (never tried 8 or X), the video recorder has always sounded better than recording sound only. Not sure why, it has just sounded more convincing and revealing with video.
I have also made it a habit to switch on flight mode, to prevent most other activities by the phone during recording.
Thomas, what app are you using when recording on the iPhone 8? I'm asking because I've found that on my iPhones, up to model 7 (never tried 8 or X), the video recorder has always sounded better than recording sound only. Not sure why, it has just sounded more convincing and revealing with video.
I have also made it a habit to switch on flight mode, to prevent most other activities by the phone during recording.
Re: Playground for practical listening exercices
Oi! I said nothing of the sort! I just said it was easier than the last few clips and I used one of your methods for judging.beck wrote:Charlie1 has just told me what I should say about these two latest clips: “I agree with Charlie1!”.