Playground for practical listening exercises

[ThomasOK]

Time for a little more enlightenment. It is understandable that you would all have a harder time with the second set of clips. It was requested that I do some clips of different tops on the NOKTable stand and that is what most of this is about. In this particular case all three clips had the same NOKTable base but three different tops that are all some kind of composite. Clip 8 is the NOKTable mdf top again. This should sound pretty much identical to Clip 3 but it was made after swapping all the other tops so something might have shifted slightly. However, I find Clip 3 and Clip 8 to be pretty much identical on the iMac. Clip 6 is the mdf top from the Archidee stand so it is not surprising that it is very close to Clip 8 as it is pretty much the same construction. I find the NOKTable top a little easier to follow the vocals on and with more texture to the bass line but they are close. Clip 5 is a Neuance board as the top. If you don't care about what a Neuance is you can skip the next paragraph.

Many of you may not have heard of the Neuance as it was kind of a niche US made product with limited (now non-existent) availability. I had a couple of customers who swore by them to the point of telling me that if I bought one and didn't like it they would buy it from me. I tried to get in contact with the maker several years ago but had no luck getting a reply. It turned out a year later that he had passed away and the company is now defunct, but I amanged to get my hands on one thanks to a customer. The Neuance is a very thick board made of some proprietary mix of compressed foam materials with a very hard outer skin, probably melamine. It is the lightest of all the boards but also the thickest at 4" (16mm) thick and has a fairly dead but a bit high pitched tap tone. Neuance never came out with their own rack but sold their boards to put on top of your existing rack and some people put them on existing shelves where others put them on the framework. So they could be viewed as somewhat of an isolation device.

The interesting thing is that it appears that nobody here seems to care for the Neuance, which I don't either. I find it gives a flat and uninvolving sound. Also it seems only tokenbrit likes the movingui board, the others put it low on the list as do I and Simon. I admit the other clips are close and I hear what some like in the heavier metalwork. I may investigate it further but I still prefer the original NOKTable metalwork.

Now as to the system, I have definitely not switched away from 2.48m K400 speaker cable soldered at 677°F with Lejonklou solder and old style Linn Knekt banana plugs. There is a change in the system, as some have guessed, but it is not one I am ready to talk about yet. Also the change is not fully optimized and I haven't completely decided if it is permanent (as I need to optimize it and make some comparisons). The point of these comparisons was to hear the differences in the turntable stands and tops which is why I'm keeping the focus off the rest. But I will put a clip up at the end that can be compared to an older clip before this system change just for the fun of it.

[ThomasOK]

On to a few more clips. There are two different changes here and I thought pf posting them separately but they all tie together so i'm posting all three.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ovo35v8z1f45e ... 0.MP4?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/x3lv9u0zft4yh ... 1.MP4?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8rl0t7hzhxlo0 ... 2.MP4?dl=0

Please excuse the bad start on clip 10, I must have had my finger over one of the mics when I pressed the start button, it gets to normal in a few seconds. You can always start the comparison later in the tracks. Note that I am making one change between 10 and 11 and a different change between 11 and 12 and I expect you will find those two closer. If you want to take it a step further you can also compare clip 12 to clip 8. Have fun.

[beck]

None of the latest clips makes me happy. I tried to pick a favorite but gave up. They all sound artificiel to my ears up against my favorite from the first set of clips.

[ThomasOK]

None of the other clips I have done have the heavier metalwork that was posted in clip 2 of the first set which you prefer. Nor will the last couple of clips have it. That was something I tested with my friend there to see how it compared to my reference and then went on to do the different tops, etc. featured in the other clips.

[Charlie1]

Maybe the first clip (10) seems to me to flow a bit better but nothing in it really.

[tokenbrit]

I'm having difficulty playing these clips on my android phone - is anyone else running into problems?
They work fine on my old laptop but that's not the best sounding... I'm using that as my excuse for preferring the softer (more muddled) sound of the movingui top, and sticking to it. Would like to figure out how to get the clips to work on my phone though.

[beck]

I'm having difficulty playing these clips on my android phone - is anyone else running into problems?
They work fine on my old laptop but that's not the best sounding... I'm using that as my excuse for preferring the softer (more muddled) sound of the movingui top, and sticking to it. Would like to figure out how to get the clips to work on my phone though.

Using an ipad I have no problems.

[ThomasOK]

I don't have an android device to try. It should be platform agnostic as it was recorded with a Cannon DSLR (which also likely has an effect on the sound of the clips compared to an iPhone, although I've used it before). No problems on my iPhone or on several Macs.

[tokenbrit]

Doesn't work for me in either browser app, but works if I install the Dropbox app... Shame as I prefer to use a browser if poss as I can open clips in their own tab for quicker comparison... Oh well. Will see what I can hear in the latest rounds.

[lejonklou]

On to a few more clips. There are two different changes here and I thought pf posting them separately but they all tie together so i'm posting all three.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ovo35v8z1f45e ... 0.MP4?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/x3lv9u0zft4yh ... 1.MP4?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8rl0t7hzhxlo0 ... 2.MP4?dl=0

Please excuse the bad start on clip 10, I must have had my finger over one of the mics when I pressed the start button, it gets to normal in a few seconds. You can always start the comparison later in the tracks. Note that I am making one change between 10 and 11 and a different change between 11 and 12 and I expect you will find those two closer. If you want to take it a step further you can also compare clip 12 to clip 8. Have fun.

I think clip 10 (the first of these three) is the best. Despite the bass-less start when the mic is obstructed.

Clip 11 (second) feels heavier but a little less tight.

Clip 12 (third) doesn't beat clip 10 in my admittedly summer-lazy ears. It seems less tight.

No big differences, though. I've got a feeling that an iPhone or an iPad does a better job of recording your system? It's as if the Canon you're using sounds a little disjointed and covers up the differences between the clips. Please note that this is pure speculation on my part.

[tokenbrit]

Agree with the heavy but loose(r) assessment of 11 but finding it tough to choose between 10 & 12... it feels to me like the bass weight in 12 balances better with the vocals, listening on my phone, but 10 feels just a touch more natural

[Spannko]

I've got a feeling that an iPhone or an iPad does a better job of recording your system? It's as if the Canon you're using sounds a little disjointed and covers up the differences between the clips. Please note that this is pure speculation on my part.

I agree, the iPhone/iPad is surprisingly good. I bought a Sennheiser MK 4 Digital microphone for iOS with the intention of producing better recordings. Sure it’s better in a HiFi sense, but musically it’s really poor. After an initial test, it went straight back in the box and hasn’t been out since.

[ThomasOK]

Nothing like raining on my parade! I just bought a nice tripod so I could make more consistent recordings with my camera. (Not $1000 nice, I’m not that good a photographer.) Although I’m sure there will be other uses for it. :-(

Maybe I can strap the iPhone to it with rubber bands?

[Spannko]

It might be worth making a recording on your iPhone, just to make sure that’s where the problem lies.

[beck]

I for one like your clips Thomas. Yes, they do sound slightly different to the ones made by iphone but to me it is easy enough to hear the differences between the different setups.
Now finish this run with the same equipment. Then you can change if you like. That is my advice.

[tokenbrit]

Please tell us you tune-dem'd the tripod. Also you could try filling the legs with sand :)

[ThomasOK]

Please tell us you tune-dem'd the tripod. Also you could try filling the legs with sand :)

I have a choice of rubber pads vs steel spikes so I suppose I should try both, maybe with Skeets as well. ;-)
I’m awaiting the right brand of Swedish kitty litter!

[ThomasOK]

All right, lets try something a little different. From some comparisons I was making this weekend.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/40emedyk9xryu ... R.m4a?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/x4bw7qoh8o1zp ... R.m4a?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/59vzjydihyl75 ... U.m4a?dl=0

To the purists like beck I will apologize up front that this is from the 50th anniversary Sgt. Pepper's album. As such it is the new Giles Martin mix and was done in high-rez digital before going onto the vinyl. I didn't really think about it as I was doing the comparisons, we were just enjoying the music and having fun with the testing.

[beck]

Thomas, you need to tell us what was going on with the last set of clips!

This latest set of clips are out of my range to make meaningful comments on. Your other sets where a walk in the park compared to this latest set (to me).

[ThomasOK]

Thomas, you need to tell us what was going on with the last set of clips!

This latest set of clips are out of my range to make meaningful comments on. Your other sets where a walk in the park compared to this latest set (to me).

It would be helpful for you to describe in what way they are out of the range?

[beck]

If you had told me it was the same setup recorded 3 times I would not have objected to it. Maybe my ears are not up to it any more. :-)

[ThomasOK]

OK, well I would agree that all three are musical sounding, although I find differences I feel are significant in how musical each one is. I don't want to reveal quite yet what was changed. I did make these recordings using the iPhone 8+ and its built in mic(s). I did also use the new tripod which I figured out how to strap the iPhone to. (I'm actually using an item one of my brothers gave me which I initially thought was useless.) On the last round of clips I didn't have the tripod yet so I just set the camera on a box which meant it was at about knee level. For these recordings I put the iPhone 8+ with the mic(s) pretty close to ear level, centered between the speakers a bit in front of where I normally sit and with the screen facing the system.

[tokenbrit]

I have struggled with all of the clips; having a hard time separating differences in sound from differences in musicality, and trying to work out which one is more musically correct. The other clips sounded more forward to me, so I tended to prefer a presentation that tamed that... With these it's almost the opposite, sounding a little quiet such that I felt I was having to reach to hear the differences rather than follow the music - not a good way to 'dem. All this is maybe a long-winded way of excusing myself if I get the wrong answer (again)

Anyway, the least accessible for me was the first clip (-AR) - it just didn't grab me, but I don't know why.... The second clip (-KR) was more dynamic and more appealing particularly on the vocals, but the rest felt like it was chugging along behind just a bit. The third clip (-ARU) was both easier & more enjoyable to listen to, but I am worried that might have been down to sounding better, and I haven't noticed a loss in the musicality.

Thanks for the playground challenge - I definitely need the exercise :)

[beck]

Anyway, the least accessible for me was the first clip (-AR) - it just didn't grab me, but I don't know why.... The second clip (-KR) was more dynamic and more appealing particularly on the vocals, but the rest felt like it was chugging along behind just a bit. The third clip (-ARU) was both easier & more enjoyable to listen to.................

Ha, there must be something wrong now! I agree with your comments above tokenbrit.

It was a struggle though to get to this decision.

[tokenbrit]

Ha, there must be something wrong now! I agree with your comments above tokenbrit.

Ha ha! We will have to find out whether we're both right, this time, or both 'wrong' :)
It does seem to me like the changes are quite subtle, and I know I struggle more when the track/genre, or sound are less to my liking as I find myself reacting more to those than to the musical differences.