Tune Method / Tunedem / Silent Repetition etc

[Charlie1]

I've stopped doing silent repetition and am getting much better results. In fact, I've stopped the application of any technique. I don't try to follow one or more tunes/instruments, or 'do' anything consciously. So it's a bit like how Music Lover has always advocated, if I understood him correctly, i.e. be relaxed and don't think about it. I just pick the option I'm enjoying most and this seems to be working great and aligning with the fine ears on this forum (i.e. Playground thread). The choices I've followed (and some I've made) as a consequence have led to a much more enjoying listening experience. So this is all good - thumbs up - and thanks again to all concerned.

But it's made me suspicious of listening techniques in general especially as you can never be sure how someone will interpret your words. Perhaps they have been counter productive for others over the years, not just me...?

Is there a risk in keeping it so simple? Wasn't the old advise to follow the tune and not be persuaded by our emotions because they can be unreliable? I'm not focusing on a specific tune anymore but don't feel I'm being mislead by my emotions either, but could someone else be mislead, someone who hasn't learned the knack of doing it? Have I somehow picked up a skill without realising?

Do folks on here still think like that or have they evolved their approach? I sense that Fredrik has a bit, occasionally referencing the emotional impact nowadays - I hope he doesn't mind me calling him out.

[Music Lover]

Nice!
But to be 100% clear, for me it's not about emotions or enjoyment - just about musical understanding.

Never used any other way evaluating.
Well, I also (for test purpuses) tried "silent rep", "sing along" whatever...But for me these are not as stringent.

PS
When I listen to music (i.e. not during evaluation) - THEN it's all about emotions or enjoyment :)

[Charlie1]

Nice!
But to be 100% clear, for me it's not about emotions or enjoyment - just about musical understanding.

Never used any other way evaluating.
Well, I also (for test purpuses) tried "silent rep", "sing along" whatever...But for me these are not as stringent.

PS
When I listen to music (i.e. not during evaluation) - THEN it's all about emotions or enjoyment :)

Thanks ML. Food for thought. During recent comparisons I have often noticed that the less good option has become harder to understand the music than before. But this is coming to my mind as an aside or afterthought, cos I've already decided that I'm not enjoying it so much.

My concern is that if I consciously start trying to gauge the level of musical understanding, then I'll be drifting back to where I was before - i.e. this will become the new technique as mind will enter a different space and be less sensitive to what really matters. I know this isn't the case with yourself but, at the same time, I know what I'm like. I will definitely bear your comments in mind though. I suppose that if I do get that afterthought that this option is more of a struggle then I 'know' I'm on the right track. Whereas, if I don't then probably best to re-compare.

Thanks for contributing - much appreciated.

[lejonklou]

Back again to a favorite subject of mine: How to judge performance. Thanks Charlie!

In my opinion, this is where 99% of all HiFi companies fail: They can't tell better from worse in a consistent way and therefore repeatedly end up on the wrong track. And as a consequence, most systems are so boring to listen to. This is not getting better as the decades pass - it's getting worse.

Regarding musical understanding versus emotion, one thing needs to be clarified: Music is a language of emotions. When we understand the music, we are receiving the emotional message. So my view is that when understanding, there is always an emotional reaction.

What we want to avoid when doing an evaluation is to drift away on our emotions. We need to stay focused, follow the music, take it in and feel whether it makes sense. When we later listen for pleasure, without the need to rank the performance of A versus B, we can drift away all we want and let the reproduction mix with our memories and emotions.

Music Lover, please object if I'm wrong, but you have described what you do when evaluating with:
A. "Just feeeel!", and
B. "It's just about musical understanding".
In my opinion, there is no contradiction between these two, when you are in a focused Tune Method state of mind.

So Charlie, I see no need for you to "consciously start trying to gauge the level of musical understanding". You don't need to leave the focused state to think or judge. You will know automatically.

[Music Lover]

Regarding musical understanding versus emotion, one thing needs to be clarified: Music is a language of emotions. When we understand the music, we are receiving the emotional message. So my view is that when understanding, there is always an emotional reaction.

Yepp, it's sure is!

What we want to avoid when doing an evaluation is to drift away on our emotions. We need to stay focused, follow the music, take it in and feel whether it makes sense.

"Take it in and feel" = that is what I mean with "just feel"

Music Lover, please object if I'm wrong, but you have described what you do when evaluating with:
A. "Just feeeel!", and
B. "It's just about musical understanding".
In my opinion, there is no contradiction between these two, when you are in a focused Tune Method state of mind.

Correct, both interact. According to my experience (for me) if you relax and "just feel" (= let the music fill you body) you instantly know whether A or B is better. (= more musical understanding)

You will know automatically.

This is exactly the point, don't analyse with the active part of your brain. Just feel - and you will instantly know.

Possible, the word "feel" is misleading as it's not about emotions or feeling. It's letting your unconscious part of your brain doing the evaluating, not your analytical part of the brain.
Sorry to not being able to be clearer.

[ThomasOK]

I think everybody who does this for a while develops a way of listening when comparing that lets them get to the musical truth. As mentioned this is hearing the music that makes the most sense, that moves you, that feels good. As also mentioned there can be pitfalls. From my own experience it is not a good idea to use a piece of music that I am very emotionally connected to. There are some pieces of music that often or always evoke a strong emotional reaction from me because they are connected with some part of my life that was deeply emotional. I'm sure we all have those tracks as a sympathetic piece of music that is heard in conjunction with an emotional experience can easily become permanently identified with that experience. The problem using those pieces is that their effect on you can change depending on your state of mind and also on what is going on around you. It is also unlikely you will be as deeply affected the second time in a row that you hear it. So using it for comparisons can be very unreliable.

But, as Fredrik said and I often say to my customers, music is a language of emotion and emotional connection. Pretty much all music is meant to convey some feeling whether it is happiness or melancholy, anger or joy. So listening to any piece of music for a comparison, and often to one that you don't know, should still connect you to the feeling of the piece and the item that does a better job of this is the better one.

I just had a good example of this as I received two clips with no accompanying text. They were of a remix I had never heard of a song I had never heard. I listened to the first one not knowing the second one was coming and texted back that it was good and started musing on the meaning of the lyrics to the sender. Then I received the second clip and realized this was a comparison. I listened to the second track and sent back the text "What is wrong with B?" It was immediately obvious, through my iPhone 5 speaker, that A was better - that it made me want to move whereas B left me flat. I could hear right off the bat that the percussion was more in time and pushed the rhythm better even though it was electronic percussion. So this is how I normally listen: does it make sense, do I enjoy it.

To me the importance of the Tune Method is twofold. One is that when I am having difficulty choosing between two things that I find to be really close but different I sometimes have to fall back on the actual Tune Method of repeating the notes within my head. But to me the more important one is having it as a tool to help focus customers on what is most important. To get them to focus on the music rather than the sound, or the Hi-Fi artifacts. So much garbage is written in the Hi-Fi press that relates to aspects of sonic performance that has little or nothing to do with musical quality, and that can even sometimes be counterproductive to musical understanding if followed strongly, that it is good to have a way to get people to focus on the music and its enjoyment to help them find the best products for them. The Tune Method gives me a way to help them focus on musical understanding.

As Fredrik said, I do think that much of the Hi-Fi gear is getting worse and I know many people in the industry know it. We had one reviewer visit the room who expressed how tired he was of all the expensive, complicated Hi-Fi gear out there that had so many parts that the music struggled to get out. He found the Lejonklou electronics and the system we demoed to be a breath of fresh air. There is a reason a fair number of people out there hold onto their 1980s LP12/Linn Isobarik/Naim electronics systems: how many newer systems have you heard that brought that much musical enjoyment? How much more stuff is out there that doesn't even measure up to an original Nait/Kan setup? I am still somewhat awed at how musical a pair of almost 30 year old Isobariks sounded when fed by a highly configured LP12 and the Sagatun Mono Tundra Mono combination. And look at the design of the JBL speakers several of us are really digging - not exactly a complex, modern design. Complexity, expense, over engineering and conspicuous construction have really made the high end of the audio market one for those who are looking for status - not those looking for the most musical enjoyment.

[u252agz]

. I just pick the option I'm enjoying most and this seems to be working great and aligning with the fine ears on this forum (i.e. Playground thread).

This is what I do with comparisions - when listening to music I enjoy the music and appreciate all the emotional aspects others allude to.


If I am listening to a system at a dealer , and it sounds ' impressive' - it is usually a red flag for me and means that it is unlikely to be either enjoyable or have any positive emotional impact. I usually mutter a few complimentary things for the dealers benefits, ask the volume to be turned down and try and have a chat about how things have progresssed.

I am not really sure about musical understanding as such - but this may well be the best one for those with really good ears.

[Charlie1]

Regarding musical understanding versus emotion, one thing needs to be clarified: Music is a language of emotions. When we understand the music, we are receiving the emotional message. So my view is that when understanding, there is always an emotional reaction.

That makes sense and does fit my experience now that you've made me think of it like that. Sometimes it 'seems' to feel like nothing more than disappointment, numbness or confusion, perhaps when listening to a second option that is clearly worse than the first.

What we want to avoid when doing an evaluation is to drift away on our emotions. We need to stay focused, follow the music, take it in and feel whether it makes sense. When we later listen for pleasure, without the need to rank the performance of A versus B, we can drift away all we want and let the reproduction mix with our memories and emotions.

I like this, and it answers my question regarding emotions. Thanks Fredrik.

So Charlie, I see no need for you to "consciously start trying to gauge the level of musical understanding". You don't need to leave the focused state to think or judge. You will know automatically.

Cool.

Possible, the word "feel" is misleading as it's not about emotions or feeling. It's letting your unconscious part of your brain doing the evaluating, not your analytical part of the brain.

Yes, I think this has been the key change for me and much more reliable results. I think you have been saying similar things for a while. What's the old saying? "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink".

I think everybody who does this for a while develops a way of listening when comparing that lets them get to the musical truth.

Given enough time maybe ;)

There are some pieces of music that often or always evoke a strong emotional reaction from me because they are connected with some part of my life that was deeply emotional.

A good reminder, thanks.

Pretty much all music is meant to convey some feeling whether it is happiness or melancholy, anger or joy.

I dunno, I've heard some dodgy B-sides in my time :)

But to me the more important one is having it as a tool to help focus customers on what is most important. To get them to focus on the music rather than the sound, or the Hi-Fi artifacts. So much garbage is written in the Hi-Fi press that relates to aspects of sonic performance that has little or nothing to do with musical quality, and that can even sometimes be counterproductive to musical understanding if followed strongly, that it is good to have a way to get people to focus on the music and its enjoyment to help them find the best products for them. The Tune Method gives me a way to help them focus on musical understanding.

I hadn't thought of that. I can imagine it's a real help in those situations. There must be plenty of customers coming in for a dem with their well worn favourites under their arm so that they can analyse the sonic differences.

I just pick the option I'm enjoying most and this seems to be working great and aligning with the fine ears on this forum (i.e. Playground thread).

This is what I do with comparisons - when listening to music I enjoy the music and appreciate all the emotional aspects others allude to.

Thanks for the feedback.

I am not really sure about musical understanding as such

For me, a really bad example can feel like my mind is wading through treacle as it tries to make sense of what's being heard. Perhaps more noticeable if it is the lesser of two options I'm comparing.

[u252agz]

Regarding musical understanding versus emotion, one thing needs to be clarified: Music is a language of emotions. When we understand the music, we are receiving the emotional message. So my view is that when understanding, there is always an emotional reaction.

What we want to avoid when doing an evaluation is to drift away on our emotions. We need to stay focused, follow the music, take it in and feel whether it makes sense. When we later listen for pleasure, without the need to rank the performance of A versus B, we can drift away all we want and let the reproduction mix with our memories and emotions.

Thats a great way of putting it.

Maybe if the music from any system delivers the emotional message then it is likely we are understanding it and as a result the music is enjoyable: if so perhaps it is ok to use enjoyment as a yardstick for comparisions.