Digital Volume KDS/2 and Sagatun

[u252agz]

In preparation for sending my Sagatun Monos back to Sweden for the upgrade, I connected the KDS/2 to the Tundra Mono 2s - something I have been meaning to try for a while.

Well - the digital volume control on the KDS/2 is very good. Much much better than on the KDS/1, which If I was being honest was really quite challenging ( compared to my AK/1 ).

But the music with the Sagatun Monos is so much better. More musicality, more emotion and a whole different level of engagement. The KDS/2 sounds quite flat in comparision; my 12 year old son walked in and immediately noticed something had changed.

I also really miss the ability to enjoy the music at different volumes. The KDS/2 DVC is like the AK/1 in that there is an optimal volume for each album ( usually around 50) and below this, the music just falls off a cliff.

Above this it becomes increasingly less listenable. As a result, for any new album I find I have to locate this optimal level first, before listening to the album itself.

With the Sagatuns - the music sounds great from quiet through to loud- something which I have gotten used to and is really a big plus point for me, especially for times I want to play at lowish volumes.

So, the digital volume control on the KDS/2 is a huge improvement on KDS/1, but it is a long way from the Sagatun Monos.

[Music Lover]

Very interesting, thanks!
Is it only the music that is getting worse in low/high volume, or also the sound itself?

[u252agz]

I think its mainly the music as I very quickly try and find the optimal value with the DVC and settle on this. There may be an element of sound here, but sometimes I find it difficult to isolate the two entirely. Usually I find my focus is on musicality, flow and timing first and sound as an added bonus.


At low volumes on the KDS/2, I find the the parts of the music fade away compared to other parts and as a result the coherance or interplay between components suffers.

At high volumes - it just seems to lose some control and become a bit strident for want of a better word. I tend to quickly settle back to the 'optimal values' and not think too much more about it. Perhaps more sound here but I suspect its mainly musicality again - I dont really spend long enough at the higher volumes to be sure!

I am not sure whether the lack of engagement, or emotion with vocals ( at all volumes) represents musicality or sound, or a combination - but this is very noticeable. Maybe the KDS/2 DVC is quite good with this aspect compared to most other pre amps, but I have gotten used to the Sagatuns and am keen to get the upgraded versions back as soon as possible.

[lejonklou]

Thanks for reporting, u252agz!

I have demonstrated this difference a couple of times. It's an interesting experience musically. Some songs really shift from uninteresting to engaging.

I have also noticed that some people don't really want to know. They've already decided to let the preamp go and would rather not experience the difference a great analogue volume can make. That's a stance I can't identify with, as I want to know all there is to know. And visit the edge even if I know I can't stay there.

I will make sure the upgraded Sagatun Mono's return to you as soon as possible!

[Charlie1]

Thanks for posting u252agz. Also found it very interesting, particularly because you're not under any pressure to make a decision. You're just noticing the changes to your everyday listening enjoyment.

Surprised the KDS/2 sounds better at around 50 and not nearer 80 as was always thought to be the case. Also interesting to read that the optimum level shifts according to the music. Does it shift very much?

[Charlie1]

I have also noticed that some people don't really want to know. They've already decided to let the preamp go and would rather not experience the difference a great analogue volume can make. That's a stance I can't identify with, as I want to know all there is to know.

I've done this before, perhaps not with Hi-Fi in recent years, but I recognise the behaviour - i.e. becoming fixated on a specific outcome or 'thing' that you want. There's probably no point in trying to open their minds. But you never know, they might be back in a few years time if it's not working out for them.

[u252agz]

charlie 1

I find the optimal level with the KDS/2 around 50 - with a little bit of leeway ie 48-51 for the albums I have tried.

I used to prefer the AK/1 at a more precise fixed number for each album -for example 49 on the dot- I even used to adjust blind and then look a the number once I was happy with the music.

Sagatuns - just set the volume to roughly what I am in the mood for always sounds good.

Huge difference from the KDS/2 and AK/1 at low volumes ie when my wife comes in for a chat and I settle for background music whilst I pretend to be listening to her.

Neither KDS/2 or AK/1 is/was particularly listenable at really high volumes - Sagatuns much better.

[u252agz]

I have demonstrated this difference a couple of times. It's an interesting experience musically. Some songs really shift from uninteresting to engaging.

In my limited experience of upgrading from Sneaky/LK140/Ninkas I have found a quality analogue preamp to be hugely important to my musical enjoyment.

Sneaky to KRDS/0 was really, really disappointing until I replaced the Kolektor with an AK/1 - then wow.

Then upgrading to KRDS/1- similarly amazing step up .

Until I got rid of the AK/1 and used the DVC of the KDS/1. Ugh -the music just disappeared - quite upsetting really.

Arrival of Sagatun Monos then took everything to a very high level.

KDS/2 and Tundra Mono 2 upgrades done simultaneously bumped up the enjoyment another few notches.

And now; although the DVC of KDS/2 is much better than KDS/1 - quite a bit of the magic has disappeared.

[matthias]

Very interesting thread!
Fredrik,
how do you perform volume control in the Sagatuns?
Do you use Muses 72320 or something similar?

Thanks

Matt

[lejonklou]

Fredrik,
how do you perform volume control in the Sagatuns?
Do you use Muses 72320 or something similar?

I use PGA2320, one per channel.

Muses 72320 seems to be very similar to PGA2320 but without the amps. Maybe it's an advantage to have them separate, but I think the key to performance is finding out exactly what the chip "wants" and then give it that. Every component has it's strengths and quirks.

[matthias]

I use PGA2320, one per channel.
Muses 72320 seems to be very similar to PGA2320 but without the amps. Maybe it's an advantage to have them separate, but I think the key to performance is finding out exactly what the chip "wants" and then give it that. Every component has it's strengths and quirks.

Yes, these chips seem to perform remarkably well.

[u252agz]

Five days with the KDS/2 DVC and its beginning to sound quite a bit better.

The music stills falls away below 50 and is non existent by 40: But definitely better at between 50 and 60.

Not sure if the improvement is:

1. The DVC on the KDS burning in? Would it do this if it is the first time it has been used? Is it a separate part of the KDS board?

2. Me coming to terms to the disappointment of losing the music with the Sagatun monos and readjusting ie making the best of what I have.
I tend to have an optimistic view of life and making the best of what I have.

3 Me forgetting just how good and involving the music was with the Sagatuns - a bit like returning from holiday and being spellbound at how good recorded music can sound.

I seem to recollect getting finally used to the DVC of the KDS/1 - much lower starting point than KDS/2, but same sense of improvement with time.

The arrival of the Sagatun Monos however put everything in context with the KDS/1; a world apart

Lets see what happens when the Mono 1.1s arrive back from Sweden and are plugged into the KDS/2.

[lejonklou]

Will upgrade your Sagatun Mono's to version 1.1 as soon as they arrive, u252agz!

When they return, I hope you will give them a critical listen. And if you are not delighted with the improvement over the digital volume, please do sell them! It will save both money and two shelves of space.

[u252agz]

Sagatun Monos have arrived and are back in the system.

Magnificent - just magnificent.

Everything is so much better than the KDS/2 Digital volume.

The difference in putting in the mono 1.1s feels bigger than when I took the 1.0 away and that is with them stone cold and zero run in time.

I don't know where to began: not only is the musicality , engagement and emotion back with a vengeance but the bass, mids nuances , etc etc have all improved beyond recognition.

The musicality is back at all volumes - kids/2 was good at 50-60 only ( fell off a cliff below 50 and in my system sounded strained above 60).

With sagatuns , the music is much better at the equivalent 50-60 but remains captivating at quiet volumes and great at loud volumes, with no audible distortion - this is a hugely important feature for me.

For anyone thinking of using DVC on their DS streamers on a permanent basis, I would urge you at least listen to a high quality analogue preamp like the Sagatun before making the final decision.


The critical listening I was advised to undertake, took all of 5seconds of Joss Stone's chokin' kind ( from soul sessions ) but I have listened to the whole album along with Maeve OBoyle's 'all of my sins' in 24 bit, and cara Dillons sweet liberty, before putting pen to paper.

In reply to the last post, I will be keeping my Sagatun Mono 1.1s and can think of no better use for my two empty walnut shelves in my cabinet.

In summary:

The KDS/2 DVC is very good , especially at normal listening volumes of 50-60.

The Sagatun Mono 1.1s are however much, much better throughout the whole volume range and bring a whole different level of musicality, emotion and engagement to the music.

[u252agz]

I have now listened to the Sagatun mono 1.1s for a few hours , fully warmed up.

Compared to the Sagatun Mono 1.0 s - really quite impressive improvement.

To be honest, I did not think the upgrade could add anything significant - they were already so good. Hence the one year delay.

However, I was wrong.

They are noticeably better - better at everything . Vocals have even more emotions and bass is just sublime. I think flow and timing are also a bit better.

No point discussing the comparison with KDS/2 any further - the running in/ warming up puts even more clear water between the two preamps.

All in all very worthwhile, and very reasonably priced.

[Charlie1]

Everything is so much better than the KDS/2 Digital volume...I don't know where to began: not only is the musicality , engagement and emotion back with a vengeance but the bass, mids nuances , etc etc have all improved beyond recognition.

Wow, that's quite damning for the DVC then. I'm quite pleased because I prefer the 'idea' of the analogue pre-amp to the DVC but it's what actually works best that really matters.

The musicality is back at all volumes - kids/2 was good at 50-60 only ( fell off a cliff below 50 and in my system sounded strained above 60).

This is the most worrying part for me. I want my system to be engaging no matter when volume.

They are noticeably better - better at everything . Vocals have even more emotions and bass is just sublime. I think flow and timing are also a bit better.

Sounds like another fun evening of listening ahead.

[Ozzzy189]

I have found the same thing when I've compared dvc with both of Fred's pre amps, and obviously it's even more apparent with the ads1, the ads2 might be a bit better but even a kds2 is vastly worse so I find it increasingly frustrating that a bit brainwashing on a certain forum is steering folks towards ditching the pre amp altogether, that's very worrying for those who value musicality and a connection to the tune above anything else.
Glad I'm not alone with these findings.

[u252agz]

Charlie 1 and Ozzy,

I find it difficult to get across a sense of proportion with these comparisons: the KDS/2 DVC ( unlike the KDS/1 DVC) is actually very good at 50-60 range and also very engaging and enjoyable. Anyone would walk into the room with them playing at these volumes and say ' this is very, very good ( for a digital source).

It's just that the Sagatuns are so much better that one has to have a reality check. The engagement and realism for those of us using digital sources is nothing short of extraordinary, and the KDS/ 2 DVC becomes immediately irrelevant.

I agree that the narrow band of musicality of the KDS/2 is one of the real sticking points (for me ) as I often like to listen at low volumes, and occasionally, loud volumes.

When I remember my AK/1 ( which I am assuming was an analogue preamp) this also had a strong preference for an optimal volume around the 50-60 mark in my system, and very album dependant. I can't really remember if the musicality fell off so precipitously at below 50, maybe not so much. I have never tried a Klimax Kontrol.

So in this respect the Sagatuns are fairly unique and feel really quite special.

If everyone with a DS who is currently using a DVC were to at least try a Sagatun or two - I am sure they would immediately hear the difference.

[Ozzzy189]

Yup, I'm taking mine round to a friends house, he won't know until I have to nip to the car as I'll have 'left my phone in the car ' lol
Thanks for the insightful post.

[Music Lover]

When I remember my AK/1 ( which I am assuming was an analogue preamp) this also had a strong preference for an optimal volume around the 50-60 mark in my system, and very album dependant. I can't really remember if the musicality fell off so precipitously at below 50, maybe not so much. I have never tried a Klimax Kontrol.

So in this respect the Sagatuns are fairly unique and feel really quite special.

If everyone with a DS who is currently using a DVC were to at least try a Sagatun or two - I am sure they would immediately hear the difference.

What version is AK/1? Latest with dynamic or...

I owned all versions of KK and regardless of version, their performance is great on all volumes.

[u252agz]

Definitely AK/1 and dynamiked.

Great preamp which utterly transformed my KRDS/0, and with its mm phono stage my RP3, compared to the previous Kolektor. One of the most profound upgrades I have done to date.

My memory's not great but I do remember being very particular about my optimal volume for each album - did not think too much about this until Sagatun monos made me realise it could be different.

I have a feeling the music did not fall off quite like the DVC on the KDS/2 but it was a while ago.

[Spannko]

Great report u252agz!

As I've mentioned before, I'm running a KDS/2 directly into a KT/2 and find it very enjoyable. However, your findings have really intrigued me, so I think it's time I booked a listening session with Neil at Hidden Systems!

[u252agz]

Enjoy .

A home demo might be an idea - if you haven't already ordered the sagatun(s) before leaving Hidden Systems.

[Linnie]

What would be the difference when you connect a KDSM/1 direct to the power amp instead of the KDS/2 ?
Anyone compared those ?

[u252agz]

See kds/2 thread in hi fi section.

I think the ds and dvc components of both are supposed to be similar, with kds/2 having the edge with analogue out.

If you think dvc of kds/2 or kdsm/1 is good then you should really try it with sagatun monos.