Radikal is in place
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Radikal is in place
So I finally saved up enough and went with Klimax Radikal and Urika upgrade. Such a musical improvement it's truly like none other. It's much less a better sound type of upgrade, simply more emotional, every song has me nodding my head to the beat of tapping my feet ( or both) and in make cases not being aware I'm doing it. So much closer to the real thing than ever before. I especially love how I can feel the singers emotions. Vocals are so much more signif, and meaningful.
lp12, Keel, K Radikal, Urika, EkosSe/1 Kandid KK1/D, JBL 708p
Linn Pekin
Linn Pekin
Re: Radikal is in place
That's really what it's all about. One day I hope to take my TT to similar heights.
Re: Radikal is in place
Good going, bonzo. Yep, the Radikal really does make the biggest musical improvement on an LP12 I have heard from a single upgrade - so much more insight into the music. The Urika along with it also resolves much more of what is coming from the cartridge. A very powerful upgrade indeed.
The LP12 Whisperer
Manufacturer, Distributor, Retailer and above all lover of music.
Manufacturer, Distributor, Retailer and above all lover of music.
Re: Radikal is in place
So with this setup, is balanced or non balanced best coming from Urika to KK?
lp12, Keel, K Radikal, Urika, EkosSe/1 Kandid KK1/D, JBL 708p
Linn Pekin
Linn Pekin
Re: Radikal is in place
Unbalanced!
Re: Radikal is in place
May I ask why is unbalanced so much better/recommended? I f the Urika and the KK are dual mono, would t you want a balanced connection. If balanced is so much inferior why would it be an option? Don't mean to be argumentative, simply want to learn and understand
lp12, Keel, K Radikal, Urika, EkosSe/1 Kandid KK1/D, JBL 708p
Linn Pekin
Linn Pekin
Re: Radikal is in place
bonzo wrote:May I ask why is unbalanced so much better/recommended? I f the Urika and the KK are dual mono, would t you want a balanced connection. If balanced is so much inferior why would it be an option? Don't mean to be argumentative, simply want to learn and understand
KK is not a true balanced input, dual mono is not relevant to balanced and unbalanced inputs, it just means left and right channels are separate.
Balanced is not necessarily "so much inferior" its just Fredrik, myself and many others prefer unbalanced.
There will be some who prefer balanced.
I much prefer unbalanced between KDS and kk, but many prefer the less natural, more impressive sound of balanced.
Re: Radikal is in place
I think it's really up the source what is the best. From my Oppo 105 to KK I definitely prefer balanced. I would think this is due to that Oppo have made this output better. Better output stage or something. It's not just more impressive sound from movies, compared with a CD and it's better in tune dem as well IMO.
From Linn DS I prefer unbalanced, more natural and musical.
From Linn DS I prefer unbalanced, more natural and musical.
Would you like to elaborate this ?anthony wrote:KK is not a true balanced input...
Re: Radikal is in place
It is my experience as well that unbalanced is preferable to balanced connection on the Urika. I will also note that Linn recommended unbalanced Silvers over balanced for normal lengths, like the 1.2 meter of standard Linn factory interconnects, when used with the Urika. One would expect this is why a pair of 1.2M Silvers is included in the box with the Urika.
Why would unbalanced be superior? Which connection is superior has much to do with the design of the electronics that are being connected together. Electronic circuits themselves can be balanced or unbalanced. Some companies, like Lejonklou and Linn (in most gear) use unbalanced designs. The claim from those who do is that the unbalanced design is simpler, using many fewer parts, and this helps lead to better musical quality. Other companies such as Burmester and Ayre use circuits that are balanced as they prefer them. Now I haven't done a tremendous amount of comparing of these different designs but the comparisons I have done indicate that unbalanced circuits are most musical with unbalanced cables even when balanced connections are available as with the KK and AK, etc. However, components with balanced circuits I have listened to, specifically some Burmeister gear, are more musical with balanced cables even when unbalanced connections are available.
The likely answer why has to do with how balanced connections are implemented on the KK, AK and most other equipment with unbalanced circuits. This answer will cover stefan's question of the KK not being a true balanced input. But first some might find an explanation of what a balanced connection does helpful. In an unbalanced cable there is a wire for the signal and one for the ground (normally the shield, but not always). In a balanced cable there is a plus wire, a minus wire and a ground. The plus wire contains the musical signal as would be ordinarily carried on an unbalanced cable while the minus wire carries the same exact signal (at least in theory) but with the phase reversed by 180 degrees. The reason for this is to eliminate noise picked up along the length of the cable. Here's the idea: the sending device either already puts out the plus and minus signals or the signal is split into plus and minus by the device. As signals go down the cable it can pick up noise from electromagnetic fields, RFI, etc. For a good example of this run a power cable right next to an interconnect and parallel to it and turn up the volume and you will hear hum. On a balanced cable those interference signals will be basically the same on both the plus and minus wires. So when the minus signal is flipped back over to positive in the receiving device the interference signals will also be flipped 180 degrees and they will cancel out those on the plus signal when the two are combined. Like magic the noise is gone. Balanced is very useful for weak signals that have to travel long runs of cable, microphones being a sterling example as they have signals about as weak as a phono cartridge but often have to run 50 or 100 feet or more before the signal gets into a mic preamp. So balanced is most useful for weak signals that travel long distances (Linn Knelt was a balanced signal because of the lengths involved) and much less helpful for stronger signals run for short distances where good shielding and proper cable routing minimize any interference.
So back to why balanced cables work differently with different electronic designs. The Klimax Kontrol does not have a balanced circuit inside (this is completely different from being dual mono which indicates that there is no connection between the left and right channels of a preamp or power amp internally - with the exception of the ground which is usually shared) so to have balanced inputs and outputs the signal has to be flipped somehow. This is generally done via a transformer or a chip that flips the plus signal to make it minus. In the KK this is done by a pair of chips (in the Urika it is a pair of transformers). What this means is that the balanced connection actually has to go through additional circuitry that the unbalanced one does not. In the case of the KK it also has to go through an additional connection as the RCAs are soldered to the board but the XLRs have small wires and a plug that connect them to the audio board. So the unbalanced connection is the shorter and purer path, hence theoretically more musical. This is one case where theory matches with experience for many of us.
In the case of the Burmester the balanced circuit in their CD player feeds the balanced circuit in their preamp and therefore it sounds more musical with balanced interconnects - at least that is my experience. Hook up a UniDisk to the same preamp and the unbalanced cable is more musical.
Then why does Linn put balanced connections on the Urika? To paraphrase them the XLRs give the ability to use long runs where necessary with minimum degradation. So if you put your LP12 50 feet away from your KK there might be a benefit to balanced. I say might as I have not tried it and Linn preamps can generally run 50 feet of unbalanced interconnect on the way to the amp without a problem. So unbalanced might still sound better - you'd have to try both to be sure. But in general, unless you have very long runs or the equipment is internally balanced, unbalanced connections will be more musical and this is what most of us here have found.
The KDS is the one possible exception in the Linn line as I understand that the output from the DAC is balanced and the unbalanced connection is taken from one leg of it. On the other hand the input of the KK is still going through a chip to flip it back. This might account for the variance in opinion of whether the balanced or unbalanced connection is more musical here. As I sold my KK/2 and replaced it with Sagatun Monos, which have no balanced connections, before I upgraded my ADS to a KRDS/0 I have been unable to test this in my system. But I definitely preferred my Urika connected unbalanced rather than balanced to the KK. And I prefer it even more through the Sagatun Mono 1.1s (pardon the plug).
Why would unbalanced be superior? Which connection is superior has much to do with the design of the electronics that are being connected together. Electronic circuits themselves can be balanced or unbalanced. Some companies, like Lejonklou and Linn (in most gear) use unbalanced designs. The claim from those who do is that the unbalanced design is simpler, using many fewer parts, and this helps lead to better musical quality. Other companies such as Burmester and Ayre use circuits that are balanced as they prefer them. Now I haven't done a tremendous amount of comparing of these different designs but the comparisons I have done indicate that unbalanced circuits are most musical with unbalanced cables even when balanced connections are available as with the KK and AK, etc. However, components with balanced circuits I have listened to, specifically some Burmeister gear, are more musical with balanced cables even when unbalanced connections are available.
The likely answer why has to do with how balanced connections are implemented on the KK, AK and most other equipment with unbalanced circuits. This answer will cover stefan's question of the KK not being a true balanced input. But first some might find an explanation of what a balanced connection does helpful. In an unbalanced cable there is a wire for the signal and one for the ground (normally the shield, but not always). In a balanced cable there is a plus wire, a minus wire and a ground. The plus wire contains the musical signal as would be ordinarily carried on an unbalanced cable while the minus wire carries the same exact signal (at least in theory) but with the phase reversed by 180 degrees. The reason for this is to eliminate noise picked up along the length of the cable. Here's the idea: the sending device either already puts out the plus and minus signals or the signal is split into plus and minus by the device. As signals go down the cable it can pick up noise from electromagnetic fields, RFI, etc. For a good example of this run a power cable right next to an interconnect and parallel to it and turn up the volume and you will hear hum. On a balanced cable those interference signals will be basically the same on both the plus and minus wires. So when the minus signal is flipped back over to positive in the receiving device the interference signals will also be flipped 180 degrees and they will cancel out those on the plus signal when the two are combined. Like magic the noise is gone. Balanced is very useful for weak signals that have to travel long runs of cable, microphones being a sterling example as they have signals about as weak as a phono cartridge but often have to run 50 or 100 feet or more before the signal gets into a mic preamp. So balanced is most useful for weak signals that travel long distances (Linn Knelt was a balanced signal because of the lengths involved) and much less helpful for stronger signals run for short distances where good shielding and proper cable routing minimize any interference.
So back to why balanced cables work differently with different electronic designs. The Klimax Kontrol does not have a balanced circuit inside (this is completely different from being dual mono which indicates that there is no connection between the left and right channels of a preamp or power amp internally - with the exception of the ground which is usually shared) so to have balanced inputs and outputs the signal has to be flipped somehow. This is generally done via a transformer or a chip that flips the plus signal to make it minus. In the KK this is done by a pair of chips (in the Urika it is a pair of transformers). What this means is that the balanced connection actually has to go through additional circuitry that the unbalanced one does not. In the case of the KK it also has to go through an additional connection as the RCAs are soldered to the board but the XLRs have small wires and a plug that connect them to the audio board. So the unbalanced connection is the shorter and purer path, hence theoretically more musical. This is one case where theory matches with experience for many of us.
In the case of the Burmester the balanced circuit in their CD player feeds the balanced circuit in their preamp and therefore it sounds more musical with balanced interconnects - at least that is my experience. Hook up a UniDisk to the same preamp and the unbalanced cable is more musical.
Then why does Linn put balanced connections on the Urika? To paraphrase them the XLRs give the ability to use long runs where necessary with minimum degradation. So if you put your LP12 50 feet away from your KK there might be a benefit to balanced. I say might as I have not tried it and Linn preamps can generally run 50 feet of unbalanced interconnect on the way to the amp without a problem. So unbalanced might still sound better - you'd have to try both to be sure. But in general, unless you have very long runs or the equipment is internally balanced, unbalanced connections will be more musical and this is what most of us here have found.
The KDS is the one possible exception in the Linn line as I understand that the output from the DAC is balanced and the unbalanced connection is taken from one leg of it. On the other hand the input of the KK is still going through a chip to flip it back. This might account for the variance in opinion of whether the balanced or unbalanced connection is more musical here. As I sold my KK/2 and replaced it with Sagatun Monos, which have no balanced connections, before I upgraded my ADS to a KRDS/0 I have been unable to test this in my system. But I definitely preferred my Urika connected unbalanced rather than balanced to the KK. And I prefer it even more through the Sagatun Mono 1.1s (pardon the plug).
Last edited by ThomasOK on 2015-10-20 18:39, edited 1 time in total.
The LP12 Whisperer
Manufacturer, Distributor, Retailer and above all lover of music.
Manufacturer, Distributor, Retailer and above all lover of music.
Re: Radikal is in place
Thanks ThomasOK for the thorough answer.