activ vs. passive

Music Lover · Post by **Music Lover** » 2008-02-08 00:44

You going to loose money AND reduce the bass, dynamic and impact.
Sure you going to do this?

An alternetive can be to save until you can upgrade the source...

blom · Post by **blom** » 2008-02-08 14:12

No, I haven't decided at all yet. First I will definitely have a good listen, then see if it's economically realistic to gain anything out of all this.

I'm afraid that I will be saving for 5-10 years in order to get a Klimax DS if I don't do anything radical

I attended a nice musical evening last night btw, which made it clear just how much better the Klimax is compared to the Akurate DS, unfortunately. Rest of the system was Kontrol and active Komris w. 8 x solos. The Komris were really showing their potential. Probably the best I've heard them perform. Scary stuff :shock:

Music Lover · Post by **Music Lover** » 2008-02-08 15:42

blom wrote:I'm afraid that I will be saving for 5-10 years in order to get a Klimax DS if I don't do anything radical

So what

Are you happy with the sound today?
You always going to have items to improve but once you reach a level you are satisfied with, why messing around with the system?

My experience is that an upgrade should be an upgrade in ALL aspects to keep the overall satisfaction level.

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2008-02-08 16:22

Hi Blom,
I've heard a Klimax Chakra Twin driving my Ninka's instead of my 6100. I didn't find it all a backwards step which is an indication as to how good the Chakra Twin really is. Timing was slightly better and the bass had more slam and punch which gave the impression of more bass overall, even though the Ninka's don't go so deep when driven passively. I thought it was more musically cohesive as well with a fraction more detail. My 6100 offers more space between instruments as expected for active.
I didn't Tune Dem at the time, so can't comment of the most important aspect, but hopefully this will give you an idea of some of the hi-fi changes to look out for. Rgds, Charlie.

blom · Post by **blom** » 2008-02-08 17:11

Thanks Charlie and ML,
seems the jury is indeed still out on the aktiv vs. passive thing. I'm in principle pro-aktiv (!) myself, having lived many years with aktiv Keilidhs. After a number of years passive, first with Espeks and then Akurates, I'm now back to aktiv with the Akurates.
However, most of my real wow-experiences, with regard to the playback part of things, have come with passive Klimax amplification. Perhaps passive with top-class amps appears more impressive, while active is more natural and easy-going (dare I say more in Tune).

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2008-02-08 17:21

Perhaps if you were currently driving the 242s with Chakra x200 series amps then the Chakra Twin wouldn't stand a chance, but with x100 series it may be a different story. Personally, I'd just Tune Dem the two options and take it from there.

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2008-02-08 19:10

What about a Klimax DS, Klimax Kontrol, Chakra 4200, and Aktiv Ninka's or Katan's as a good source first system?
Or if that's beyond budget, Keep your 5100 instead of getting a 4200.
Also, Linn might be working on a stand mount version of the Majik 140. I've not heard anything, but it would make sense.

Post by **lejonklou** » 2008-02-08 21:33

blom wrote:I would be going from active 242s with Majik 5100s to 212s with a Chakra Twin. This would be a way to free up some funds to go more source first.

Tell us more about the source upgrade! I think 212 can be really great when properly installed (with speakers as good as the Akurates, an optimal positioning down to mm precision makes them at least twice as good) and also this planned system of yours is a lot better looking IMHO.

The bass and dynamic impact will depend a lot on your room. In some rooms, 212 sound very big and powerful. In other rooms, even 242 can sound a bit thin.

ThomasOK · Post by **ThomasOK** » 2008-02-08 23:28

From what I hear a stand mount version of the Majik 140 is indeed coming - probably in the first half of this year. Expect the 2K array and a single bass driver in a box somewhat bigger than the Katan.

blom · Post by **blom** » 2008-02-11 15:24

lejonklou wrote: Tell us more about the source upgrade! ...also this planned system of yours is a lot better looking IMHO.

Thanks Fredrik (loooong time no see, btw!)

What I'm thinking about is of course to get a DS to replace the Uni 1.1. The question is only which one? Having heard the difference between the Akurate and Klimax last week (I've only heard them on separate occasions before) I must say the Klimax is devastatingly good, unfortunately.

However, if I should go for the Akurate, there is room for a Klimax Kontrol as well (especially if I trade in everything...), otherwise I'm probably stuck with the 5103 for a while.

I agree completely that Klimax/212 would be a killer system esthetically. Wonderful to hear that you think it can be set up to sound great as well.

Mikael

Post by **lejonklou** » 2008-02-11 20:08

Hi Mikael!

If it was my system and DVD performance was irrelevant, I wouldn't hesitate to change from aktiv 242's to passive 212's if that meant a Klimax DS would become the source.

You don't mention vinyl - are you playing that at all? If not, you should certainly go for the Klimax DS before the Klimax Kontrol IMHO.

Just give me a call if you want to discuss this further! +4670 558 0549

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2008-02-11 20:49

Hi Mikael. Do you have a spare pair of 212s knocking about then? Because if not, then the math doesn't add up to me. I know the 212s are a fair amount cheaper than 242s, but the Chakra Twin would gobble up the difference, so I don't see how you will raise funds for a source upgrade :?

blom · Post by **blom** » 2008-02-12 17:52

Hi guys!

I must admit that, to me, DVD is just an added bonus that came with the Unidisk. I'm not interested in surround sound and I don't have a flat screen TV.

That nasty vinyl habit I gave up more than ten years ago. Actually not that difficult since new vinyl was almost nonexistent back then, so I traded the LP12 for a Karik III. I felt I couldn't afford to keep up a top-class LP12 and a top-class CD player at the time. (Of course I kept my records; you never know...)

The Chakra Twin/212s would be bought used, so the price can be quite fair, about the same as a new pair of 212s with stands.

I'm really tempted, but of course it also depends on what I can get in trade-in.

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2008-02-13 00:12

Sorry blom - I'm like a dog with a bone with this! Surely a used Chakra Twin and used 212s would not leave you any funds after selling your 242s and 5100?! In the UK, a good pair of 242s sell for approx £3,500 - £4,000. A fairly new Majik 5100 would get around £1,200. Let say you get £5,000.
I don't know what used 212s cost, but a Chakra Twin is approx £2,500 - 3,500, depending on age. Let's say you get one for £3,000, that only leaves £2,000 for 212s and a source upgrade :? ps I promise not to say anymore :)

rowlandhills · Post by **rowlandhills** » 2008-02-13 01:17

Charlie - looking at your figures, Blom would be getting about £6k (two 5100s and a pair of 242s) from what he's selling, giving him £3k for 212s and a new source (assuming £3k for a Chakra Twin). I think you were out by £1k in your example.

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2008-02-13 13:49

Doh! Well spotted though.

blom · Post by **blom** » 2008-02-14 17:05

First of all, I don't think you can compare Swedish and UK prices directly, but then again I will probably be buying and selling in Sweden, so it should even out in the end somehow :?
Let's say a Chakra Twin can be had for about the same (I would say less) as two Majik 5100s barely six months old. Then there's the aktiv cards. Used 212s go for slightly more than half the price of used 242s. There's your margin.

A few days ago I visited a guy who has a 212/Chakra Twin combo for sale, so I have a pretty good idea what it would cost :)

The crux of the matter is really what kind of deal I would get at my dealer. What would I get for my stuff, i.e what margin could we both live with? They're thinking about it right now.

Music Lover · Post by **Music Lover** » 2008-02-14 18:21

blom wrote:A few days ago I visited a guy who has a 212/Chakra Twin combo for sale, so I have a pretty good idea what it would cost :)

So what is his plan moving forward?
That is a good question to ask.

Another is, what did he miss in the Twin/212 setup and what did he like.

Finally, did you like the sound from the combo?

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2008-02-14 19:25

Hi blom, sounds like you're on top of things and my concerns were unfounded. Good luck and I hope you and your dealer can come to a compromise over price. Let us know how things play out in the end.

Chris Morton · Post by **Chris Morton** » 2008-02-15 03:23

This is my first post on this forum so let me give a little background first, then to the point.

I have an LP12 SE/Linto, Unidisk 1.1, Klimax Kontrol, Aktiv Slimline, Isobariks (penultimate version with 4mm plugs but no KuStone bracing). I have to say I think the Briks are more musical than the 242 and I am still somewhat mistified by peoples' preference towards these and other newer Linn speakers. So, I've nailed my colours to the mast and you now know my political persuasion/predudices. Some of you will, I'm sure, stop reading now :) . Anyhow...

I recently purchased a Klimax Chakra Twin 500 and put it on the treble of my active system. I have Spark-280s on the mid and base. I also have custom Linn silver interconnect made by a reputable dealer from the UK which really are essential for getting the system right on tune and with attack and speed with smoothness and without edge.

To the point. I've tried running the Klimax Chakra Twin 500 into the passive crossover, solo, and compared this to active with Chakra Twin on the treble. In my mind there's absolutely no contest. The active configuration is streets ahead. So much more insight--information and rhythm--and just more power and dynamics. The sound active from a pitch perspective is sweet as a nut. Passive there's just not that same harmony and pitch rightness--the sound is slightly off.

With all Spark-280s active, the sound is still more musically satifiying than with the KCT passive. It is closer though. The KCT passive has more resolution but not the same rhythmic grip and dynamics--it give more insight but not in a way that is more musically satisfying than active with lesser amps.

That's my take but I'm sure it is speaker dependent.

The Klimax Chakra Twin is an amazing amplifier.

Cheers,
Chris.

Music Lover · Post by **Music Lover** » 2008-02-15 08:35

Chris Morton wrote: I have to say I think the Briks are more musical than the 242 and I am still somewhat mistified by peoples' preference towards these and other newer Linn speakers. So, I've nailed my colours to the mast and you now know my political persuasion/predudices. Some of you will, I'm sure, stop reading now :) . Anyhow...

Nice to see you onboard Chris!

OT
How do you rate the newer speakers? I take it you talking about Keltik/242/Artikulat 350A/Komri?
(I love Isobarik, also the the look)

Agree, Twin is a super amp. Only Solo is better. But considering the premium, Twin is a very good buy.

blom · Post by **blom** » 2008-02-15 16:59

Music Lover wrote: So what is his plan moving forward?

Actually he's already moved on. Just the day before my visit he had a pair of 350As installed by someone we all know... 8)
For some strange reason my supposedly quick visit lasted until midnight.

Keeping in mind that he's trying to unload his stuff, my impression was that he really didn't miss anything with his previous setup. He said he was really going to miss the speed and precision of the 212/KCT and also the immaculate finish and quality of the KCT.

Since his new system was just installed, I didn't get to hear the Akurate/Klimax combo, but he offered me to try it out at home if I wanted.

ML, Charlie, Chris: Thanks. I will keep you posted.

Mikael

Chris Morton · Post by **Chris Morton** » 2008-02-15 19:54

Music Lover wrote: OT
How do you rate the newer speakers? I take it you talking about Keltik/242/Artikulat 350A/Komri?
(I love Isobarik, also the the look)

Hi Music Lover,

I've heard 242s with LP12SE/Linto/KK/KCT passive. I was surprised. I expected the new treble/mid arrangement with 3K array would move the sound forward a lot. It doesn't. A lot of the complaints about Isobarik treble harshness are likely caused by one or a number of the following 1) source not good enough 2) poor equipment placing 3) dodgy interconnects/speaker cable 4) amplification is not powerful enough (or of sufficent quality) 5) incorrect speaker placement and set-up (no wobbles and perfectly level please).

The 242s have a rather clinical sound. They don't sound right from a rhythm point-of-view. It sounds to me like the drive units are not properly synchronized. It could be that active solves all these problems.

I've heard Keltiks a lot of times and never really liked them. They never sounded as good as Isobariks to me but they were possibly more forgiving of CD back in the 90s. Linn started working on manufacturing efficiency with the last version of Isobariks (Ku-stone). They used gaskets on drive units rather than being manually sealed and I heard a rumour that the Ku-stone elliminated some manual steps regarding internal damping and other related treatments of the cabinet. I know of one person who has done the comparison of Isobariks with Ku-Stone and the prior version and found that the Ku-Stone ones on balance were not quite as good. The Keltiks maybe took the manufacturing process efficiency work a step further.

I've never heard the 350As or Komris. I have heard the 350As are not all they are made out to be (expensive for what they are) but that's just rumour not my own opinion. I hear the Komris are amazing though. Would love to hear them but I think Linn will replace them with something new sometime soon.

blom · Post by **blom** » 2008-02-29 19:02

Here's an update on the aktiv/passive/242/212/KCT saga:

Let me first of all congratulate Charlie. You were right :D . There wasn't much to gain by trading in my playback section! But, that's only because I got an extremely good trade-in deal on the Unidisk. If I had done the amp/speaker trade-in as well it would have rendered insignificantly more than it would have cost to buy the 212/KCT combo second hand. Clearly a case of very different trade-in rates being applied. There really was no point any more (other than aesthetics?).

The rest really went down to the wire. This afternoon I ordered an Akurate DS and a Klimax Kontrol. Initially I had my mind set on a Klimax DS, but taking into account that I will probably be living with this system for quite some time, my dealer and I decided that it might actually be a better soultion to get the Akurate/KK (and get rid of the 5103). Not completely source first (didn't have the opportunity to do the dem either), but that's life. A week ago neither of us would have guessed this would be the outcome :shock: . We've been discussing this back and forth during the past week and finally agreed upon this solution. It will be far cheaper than I initially feared as well.

Time will tell if it was the right decision :?
I think I need a crash course in networking.

Mikael

ThomasOK · Post by **ThomasOK** » 2008-02-29 20:33

Although it is a little late, welcome to Chris - it is always good to see a fellow Isobarik lover here. I still have a pair of the same version Isobarik as you, though currently running passive, in the front of my home theater driven by an LK280Spark. And a pair of SARAs in the rear driven by an LK2-75. I previously had them Aktiv with 3-2250s and before that with 4-LK280Sparks.

I too found that the Akurate 242s, whether passive or Aktiv, did not do enough for me to consider them as a replacement for the Isobariks. Although they did some things in a more tuneful manner, in other ways they were lacking. It was this frustration with being unable to get a real improvement over the Isobariks that led me to my current ATC SCM100ASLs. Interestingly enough it is a big box speaker sitting on a metal frame stand with a soft-dome tweeter, soft-dome midrange and a big woofer. As you can tell from the description, physically my speakers haven't changed all that much - although they have to be further out in the room. Sonically they still perform at least as well as anything I have heard and, like the Isobariks, better than many much more expensive speakers. They provide the musical improvement I was hoping for, but did not find, in the Akurates - all from a three way active speaker with the amps built in.