Sagatun and Sagatun Mono

[matthias]

I could change the pre first and keep my current monos to find out what this will do but I guess using both Tundra AND Sagatun would be best. Synergy!!

Magnus,

it will be very interesting to hear how much better Sagatun(Monos) and Tundra(Monos) perform against TP Pre and TP Monos.
Please keep us updated.

Matt

[magnuska]

Matt


I will. Have you heard any TP kit, if so against what?

Magnus

[lejonklou]

Fredrik is there a specific reason for designing the inputs/outputs like you did on Sagatun apart from sonical ?

Thank you for sharing your impressions, Magnus!

The only reason for the odd connector arrangement is that 'simple to connect' is far down on my list of priorities. Musical performance is at the top and it turned out that a dual mono design performed best. Internally, Sagatun is therefore divided into two channels and the connectors end up in two separate groups on the rear plate.

This would be fairly normal if it wasn't for the colours on my favourite RCA connectors. I found them years ago when comparing many different connectors. They sounded the best and I asked the manufacturer about a version in black plastic (in the middle of the ground barrel) instead of the current white and red. They replied they only made this model in white and red. I then asked if they could make them in black if I made a large order. They replied there were other models in their lineup, but this particular one was only available in white and red.

Now a difficulty in our communication arises, when I try to explain that this model sounded best, and that I need it in black. This was a couple of years back and I have since learned not to bring up the topic of sound with any manufacturer of parts. Even if it's audio parts, they most often don't understand what I'm talking about. I could just as well be saying that the item doesn't have the right karma.

So how did it end? I had to buy the white and red RCA. When I two years later needed more connectors, I found the company had vanished. Don't know what happened to them. I bought the remaining stock of my favourite RCA from a European distributor, at a good price since the entire range was now discontinued. :) I think they will last me for another year or two, then I'll have to search for a replacement. (I made an attempt when working on Tundra, but didn't find anything better - next time I will have to!)

So please simply ignore the colours white and red. Then the connection shouldn't be too difficult, I think.

[matthias]

Matt
I will. Have you heard any TP kit, if so against what?
Magnus

Magnus,
unfortunately not.
But some years ago I had Naim NAC52/NAP250 and there are reports on PFM that your TP Pre/Monos are on par or superior to this Naim Pre/Power.
Now, if Sagatun(M)/Tundra(M) are superior to your TPs, they should also be superior to my former Naims.
So I am very curious to read about your impressions.

Matt

[matthias]

This is the official thread of the pre amplifiers Sagatun and Sagatun Mono.
Feel free to add your impressions, questions and comments!

Fredrik,
can you tell us something about the technical differences between Sagatun Stereo and Mono?
Thanks

Matt

[magnuska]

Fredrik, I fully understand your priority. Absolutely right!
My concerns for connecting wrongly may be a little exaggerated but you know after seeing how Klångedang connection is layed out with also its crossovers it´s easy to make a costly mistake, but thats a speaker we talk about.

Matt: I also come from a Naim system a long time ago and understand what you say. I don`t think you can compare the two brands sonically. Naim has its advantages but only in certain areas IMHO. Teddy is more like Linn i guess, more neutral and let the music play through. You just forget about hardware and just listen. Lejonklou´s in comparision are perhaps a little more transparent than Teddy´s but I´m not sure, testing needs to be done here.
Have listened to ABBA , The visitors, tonight and wow, how good that sounds. A solid lift in musicality was added when putting my source on a Mimer 3.1 shelf.

Magnus

[lejonklou]

Fredrik,
can you tell us something about the technical differences between Sagatun Stereo and Mono?

Yes, certainly!

The main circuit board of Sagatun Mono is the same as in the stereo version but with the audio circuitry of the second channel left empty and disconnected. In both stereo and Mono versions, there are two power supplies feeding the main board; one positive and one negative. The advantage of this configuration, which is also used in Tundra stereo and Mono, is that each power rail has its own switch mode feedback loop, completely independent of the other.

So what differs and why is Sagatun Mono better?
The first advantage of Mono is that the power supplies run more quiet. At first, I thought this wouldn't make any difference, as the current consumption was already very low - one of the battles with Sagatun was to keep it as low as possible, because this was beneficial to sound quality . But nevertheless it turned out that almost cutting it in half was even better.

The second advantage is that with this lower power consumption and only one channel to optimise, it's possible to fine tune the supply a bit further. With two channels, any final tuning becomes a compromise between the two. But with one channel, it can be tuned to its peak. Again, the same applies to Tundra power amplifiers. So each Sagatun Mono go through a final tuning where I manually solder fixed value resistors, selected to an accuracy of less than 0.1%, into certain positions.

The third advantage with Mono is that the signal ground becomes separated in the HiFi system all the way from the source to the speakers. Currently in all the digital sources that I know of, the signal grounds for left and right channels are united. When used with Sagatun Mono and Tundra Mono, they will be united inside the source only and then separated, which prevents any ground loops from occurring. The same thing applies to Linn Urika and all phono stages that I know of: The signal grounds are first united and thereafter divided in two channels with my mono pre and power amplifiers.

Now, potentially, also the phono stage could be completely divided into two mono stages. As the coils in the cartridge are separate, this would result in the left and right channels being completely isolated from one another, all the way from the grooves in the vinyl to left and right loudspeakers. (Perhaps someone knows about a completely mono phono stage or digital source?)

As I haven't yet tried this "Absolute Mono" arrangement, I don't know how much there is to gain from the arrangement. But I am certainly interested to try it! Before testing the separation of signal grounds in two mono pre amplifiers, I was sceptical it would make much of a difference. It was Azazello, our moderator on this forum, who repeatedly insisted that I try it. And when I finally did, I was surprised by the musical result. Perhaps the important part is the complete elimination of ground loops, which is now accomplished. Could a complete electrical separation of the channels bring further improvement? That remains a secret.

[matthias]

Perhaps someone knows about a completely mono phono stage or digital source?

Fredrik,
thank you,
very interesting.

The Mono Phono:

http://www.whestaudio.co.uk/pdf/MC_REF_V.pdf

Matt

[Erik]

As I haven't yet tried this "Absolute Mono" arrangement, I don't know how much there is to gain from the arrangement.

What about using two Gaios?

/Erik

[hcl]

I would think that both the KDS and the KDSM has separate outputs so that the ground can be connected at the pre, preventing from any ground loops (if the rest of the system enables).

In such a system it might be positive to connect signal ground and mains ground at the pre. Have you tried that? Maybe it could be done as an installation option?

[macrotech2]

Perhaps someone knows about a completely mono phono stage or digital source?

Fredrik,
thank you,
very interesting.

The Mono Phono:

http://www.whestaudio.co.uk/pdf/MC_REF_V.pdf

Matt

My friend has a ClearAudio dual mono phono stage. I'm not sure if they still make it though. I couldn't find it on their webpage, but there are some very esoteric looking stages on there.

[Ozzzy189]

OK, I've done a factory reset and put the ds in the single source direct as before, and my TV input into input 2. My phonos may look the wrong way round but if I put them in the correct way the TV audio is out, left sounds come out of the right speaker and vice versa.
One question I do have...
I always look at a unit from the front and say that the right channel is on the right as I look at the front of the unit.
I'm a little unsure as to the explanation in Fredrik's instructions. I think he looks at the unit from the rear and says the right channel is on the right looking from the back. Can anyone clarify which is correct, I'd hate to wax lyrical and have it all out of phase!

Single source..


Two sources...


Obviously if you use one source then flip the little switch down to the yellow writing 'single source only'.
Hope this helps any potential or current owners.

[Ozzzy189]

I put some russ Andrews shorties in to stop any confusion! Lol, couldn't put them in the other outputs as that cut off the sound. Sorted! (unless I find out that I've got my left and right the wrong way around!)

[lejonklou]

The Mono Phono:

http://www.whestaudio.co.uk/pdf/MC_REF_V.pdf

Ok thanks, so it has been done. Are the Whest ones any good?

What about using two Gaios?

Or Slipsiks. Yes, I intend to try that!

[matthias]

The Mono Phono:
http://www.whestaudio.co.uk/pdf/MC_REF_V.pdf

Ok thanks, so it has been done. Are the Whest ones any good?

Something to read about:

http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/show ... p?t=154533

Go to page 3 for a picture of the Whest.

Matt

[lejonklou]

I would think that both the KDS and the KDSM has separate outputs so that the ground can be connected at the pre, preventing from any ground loops (if the rest of the system enables).

No, that is not correct. All signal grounds are united in the DS players. There will always be ground loops, except when used with Sagatun Mono, followed by mono power amps.

In such a system it might be positive to connect signal ground and mains ground at the pre. Have you tried that? Maybe it could be done as an installation option?

I have tried that and it's worse. There's a long story behind this, but I'll keep it short:

I used to believe that signal and mains grounds should be joined somewhere in the system, and the preamp was the most logical place for this. So in Kikkin, I did just that. With Sagatun, I evaluated it more in detail and found it best to keep the entire signal ground floating, but decoupled with small capacitors at various positions along the way. So a floating signal ground layout is now adopted in all my products.

Chris at Hidden Systems told me the other day that he found it beneficial to keep the DS on one mains distribution block and Sagatun/Tundra Mono's on another. I have not yet tried this but if it does work as a general installation rule, it might have to do with the floating signal ground in my amplifiers, while Linn's sources have a connection between signal and mains ground. I think that Urika has signal and mains grounds joined as well, but I'm not sure.

Erik: How are your mains distribution blocks arranged? Have you tried keeping sources on one and Sagatun/Tundra Mono's on another? From where is the switch and NAS powered relative to the rest of the system?

[lejonklou]

I put some russ Andrews shorties in to stop any confusion! Lol, couldn't put them in the other outputs as that cut off the sound. Sorted! (unless I find out that I've got my left and right the wrong way around!)

Hi Ozzzy!

There is no Left and Right on Sagatun, only two separate channels. So pick either of them and call it Right. Then connect all the right channels of your sources to the inputs of that group and connect one of its two outputs to the right channel of your Tundra.

Regarding the shorties: Have you checked what they do to the sound? They might degrade musicality. On Sagatun, the inputs that are NOT selected are already routed to ground, through a resistor. Adding a shortie will create a loop that I suspect is not good.

[Ozzzy189]

Hi fredrik!
I'll test that although I didn't notice anything particularly nasty when I popped them in. I'm currently running her in more than anything. She sounds great of course however!

[HIDDENSYSTEMS]

Quote "Chris at Hidden Systems told me the other day that he found it beneficial to keep the DS on one mains distribution block and Sagatun/Tundra Mono's on another. I have not yet tried this but if it does work as a general installation rule, it might have to do with the floating signal ground in my amplifiers, while Linn's sources have a connection between signal and mains ground."

Confirmed that as soon as you add the DS on the same power strip it loses something which may of what happened in May on the launch - remember how blown away I was on the evening before, then something changed on demo day morning - maybe not a suspect power cord.

Had a little gathering last Friday to show of Exakt and Lejonklou, one chap saw this effect in determining RenewDS into our old Exotik DA vs. Sagatun then on to Sagatun Monos. I'll let him describe where the KK came in that was also warmed up.

Sagatun can reveal good and not so good DS's and in his case tweaked up his RenewDS.

[rowlandhills]

Had a little gathering last Friday to show of Exakt and Lejonklou, one chap saw this effect in determining RenewDS into our old Exotik DA vs. Sagatun then on to Sagatun Monos. I'll let him describe where the KK came in that was also warmed up.

Sagatun can reveal good and not so good DS's and in his case tweaked up his RenewDS.

Indeed I did see the effect very clearly. I've done a bit more of a writeup here:
http://www.lejonklou.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2368

(Not in this thread as a lot of it is about Exakt, KEDSM vs ADSM and some other non-Lejonklou things)

As mentioned by Chris and in my writeup, I felt that the Sagatun (both mono and stereo) was better than the KK/1/D which we tried briefly, although I'm not sure how much that had been warmed through. I certainly think that it's a preamp which I'm keen to try out in my own system sometime before long, although purchase might have to wait until I can find a better way to integrate the control, as the rest of the family would miss being able to select sources and change volume from the iPad. I'm going to start a separate thread on that topic in this forum anyway.

Many thanks to Chris for setting up the demos, and congratulations to Fredrik on more very impressive products!

[rowlandhills]

Oh, and just to be clear, although I'd want to re-run the comparison with the KK/1/D in my own system, with both warmed up and more music that I know well, I'm sure that the Sagatun (even just the stereo version) was a lot better than an Exotik+DA/Dyn...

[rowlandhills]

Another question from me - Is there any way to apply a volume offset to an input (or output)? Specifically, if linking up multiple Sagatuns, such as in a 5.1 surround system, there may be connections to amps with different gains.

I have a 3200 and a Tundra, for instance, which is fine with my Exotik+DA as I can just apply a +8dB offset on the main L&R outputs, while leaving centre and surround at 0dB.

[lejonklou]

Another question from me - Is there any way to apply a volume offset to an input (or output)? Specifically, if linking up multiple Sagatuns, such as in a 5.1 surround system, there may be connections to amps with different gains.

I have excluded the option to add a volume offset to specific inputs, because it easily becomes confusing when setting or adjusting it.

Adding offset to specific channels in a multi channel setup is, however, easy. Each Sagatun or Sagatun Mono can be adjusted by its front buttons, and then have its keys locked and be controlled by the Control Link.

The Control Link sends incremental commands, such as VOL +1. Not absolute values. So all Sagatuns in the control chain can be offset up or down without problems.

[ThomasOK]

Fredrik, if I read that right you would only be able to trim two channels together with stereo Sagatuns, not individual channels.

[lejonklou]

Fredrik, if I read that right you would only be able to trim two channels together with stereo Sagatuns, not individual channels.

You can trim individual channels when using Sagatun Mono. But with Sagatun stereo you can't. In other words, there is no balance control on Sagatun stereo.

The reason for this is - you guessed it - sound quality. The volume circuits can be connected in different ways, and I tried all that I could think of. Sagatun is a dual mono design, so the volume circuits can either be connected in serial, which would allow each channel to be set individually. That is: Balance control would be possible. OR the circuits can be connected in parallel, in which case the two channels always act in unison. Then no balance control is possible.

The parallel connection turned out to sound better than the serial one. That made balance control impossible.