242mk1 with KCT (or Tundra!) vs. 242mk2 with 2200

rowlandhills · Post by **rowlandhills** » 2012-01-22 18:25

I'm well aware that the clear answer to all of these types of questions is "Listen and make your own mind up" but that's not always possible, especially when buying second hand.

So, to my question...

For similar money (about £5k), it should be possible to get a pair of early Akurate 242s and a Klimax Chakra Twin (undynamiked) or alternatively a pair of mark two Akurate 242s and an Akurate 2200 (Dynamiked). Which would people recommend, and why?

What about if the mark one 242s were with a Lejonklou Tundra? :)

SaltyDog · Post by **SaltyDog** » 2012-01-22 19:42

I have no experience with the difference between them either.

The only thing I'd be able to do with MkIs is second guess myself. No joy there for me.

Music Lover · Post by **Music Lover** » 2012-01-22 19:55

2200/D is more musical than Twin mkI
242 mkII is more musical than 242 mkI

So...an easy decision.

Besides, it's easier to change amps than speakers so get the speakers you want.
But be careful, 242 is a VERY unforgiving speaker, so make sure you have the source/pre sorted and the system installed by a pro.
If you don't have Klimax source/pre, it's better spending the money upgrading these instead of the playback.

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2012-01-22 20:42

I just don't feel comfortable with the idea of mk1 242s, even though I liked them first time I ever heard them (on an original KCT for that matter, plus KK and pre-SE LP12). I think it's the fact they cannot be upgraded to mk2, so represent a dead end. That doesn't sit well with me. And I know you have tended to steadily upgrade over recent years. It's not like this will be the end of the line for 15-20 years.

Having answered your question as best as I can, I agree with ML, I'd personally optimise the front end first. I just know that's what makes me tick, although it took a lot of faffing about and questions to get to that understanding, plus plenty of patience from some forum members. It's also safer in that you don't get unstuck by revealing playback.

ThomasOK · Post by **ThomasOK** » 2012-01-22 21:14

While I haven't done the direct A/B of a 2200/D vs. an original KCT I have to agree that ML really hit the nail on the head.

I am not thrilled with the 242 mk1 and especially not with I consider the real mk1. Despite the official Linn product history, I maintain that there have been three versions of the 242. The first set we purchased for demo were rather anemic and lacking in bass. About a year later we purchased a second pair for demo and they had so much deeper and better bass that it made it sound like the woofers were wired out of phase on the first set (they weren't). This set was still called a mk1 by Linn and no mention was ever made of there having been an upgrade. I felt these 242s were pretty good. But the third version of the 242s, which Linn calls the mk2 (maybe mk2 is kind of like /2 and really indicates the third version ;-) ) is a whole different animal. Definitely much better from top to bottom. But since it has a different 3K array, different bass drivers, different crossovers, different ports, different cabinet and different stands there is no way to upgrade earlier versions. So it really makes sense to make sure you get the latest versions.

I also agree that they are quite revealing and will only give of their best with the best front end. And, as mentioned, it will be much easier to upgrade the amp than the speakers so it would definitely be the way I would recommend going.

Music Lover · Post by **Music Lover** » 2012-01-22 21:28

ThomasOK wrote: Despite the official Linn product history, I maintain that there have been three versions of the 242. The first set we purchased for demo were rather anemic and lacking in bass. About a year later we purchased a second pair for demo and they had so much deeper and better bass that it made it sound like the woofers were wired out of phase on the first set (they weren't). This set was still called a mk1 by Linn and no mention was ever made of there having been an upgrade. I felt these 242s were pretty good.

Thomas, these are likely the famous (just kidding) 242 mk1.5! Linn changed the internal cables.

= in total 4 versions as mkIII was released (non officially) summer 2010.

rowlandhills · Post by **rowlandhills** » 2012-01-22 21:50

Music Lover wrote:2200/D is more musical than Twin mkI
242 mkII is more musical than 242 mkI

So...an easy decision.

Besides, it's easier to change amps than speakers so get the speakers you want.
But be careful, 242 is a VERY unforgiving speaker, so make sure you have the source/pre sorted and the system installed by a pro.
If you don't have Klimax source/pre, it's better spending the money upgrading these instead of the playback.

Thanks ML, that's a handy summary of things. In my case, I'm starting with a Renew DS (Klimax level) and Exotik+DA/Dyn (Akurate level, but most people say as good as a Kisto, and I think good enough for now). All mains leads are Linn originals, interconnects are Linn silvers, speaker cable will probably be K400 with Linn Knekt Bananas. I will definitely be getting setup done by a professional (hopefully one who posts here!).

I think that I'll leave the bargain 242mk1s and hold out for a pair of latest spec ones...

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2012-01-22 22:44

Music Lover wrote:Thomas, these are likely the famous (just kidding) 242 mk1.5! Linn changed the internal cables.

I was told Linn modified the bass crossover shortly after the very first release, to give them more bass because dealers thought them too base light. Have you heard of this? Maybe this is the same as your mk1.5, or perhaps even a mk 1.25? :O) It certainly ties in with Thomas' experience reference the bass.

What was the mk III change? I presume you are not just referring to the better stands, but something more integral.

I doubt the mk1's I heard were the very early ones.

rowlandhills · Post by **rowlandhills** » 2012-01-22 23:24

Charlie1 wrote:What was the mk III change? I presume you are not just referring to the better stands, but something more integral.

ML referred to summer 2010, which is indeed when the new stands came out. I'm not aware of anything else as a "Mark III" version...

mrco99 · Post by **mrco99** » 2012-01-22 23:28

I agree that physically it's easier to replace/upgrade an amp than a set of speakers. But the 242 MKII may again prove to be just as non upgradeable to a future replacement, than the MKI to MKII.
And off course MKI is always upgradeable with the newer bases.

It would be interesting to hear with which types Fredrik has done his testing of the Tundra. I believe someone wrote it had some Solo-esque charakteristics. Then a 242MKI/upgraded bases and Tundra may be the best way to spend 5K. You just have to hang in a little longer then as no one can tell yet.

Music Lover · Post by **Music Lover** » 2012-01-23 00:01

rowlandhills wrote:
Charlie1 wrote:What was the mk III change? I presume you are not just referring to the better stands, but something more integral.
ML referred to summer 2010, which is indeed when the new stands came out.

No, I'm not. They were released Q4.
Linn changed the cabinet options (new veneer) mid 2010. When asking what they had modified as these speakers sound better a Linn employee told me that they changed the supplier but I like to get a confirmation on that.

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2012-01-23 10:18

mrco99 wrote:But the 242 MKII may again prove to be just as non upgradeable to a future replacement, than the MKI to MKII.
And off course MKI is always upgradeable with the newer bases.

Good point. I should have said the Mk2 still has the 'potential' to be upgraded, whereas the Mk1 does not.

Anyway, I still think a KDS/1 or KK/1 would be a more musical upgrade. Maybe keep an eye out for some used Majik 140s, if Rowland is desperate to get shot of the Kabers. This wouldn't take much funding away from the source/pre, and 140s should match well with the new center wall speaker.

rowlandhills · Post by **rowlandhills** » 2012-01-23 14:13

Music Lover wrote:
rowlandhills wrote:
Charlie1 wrote:What was the mk III change? I presume you are not just referring to the better stands, but something more integral.
ML referred to summer 2010, which is indeed when the new stands came out.
No, I'm not. They were released Q4.
Linn changed the cabinet options (new veneer) mid 2010. When asking what they had modified as these speakers sound better a Linn employee told me that they changed the supplier but I like to get a confirmation on that.

Ah. Fair enough. Apologies for mis-interpreting your comment. I hadn't realised that the feet were released separately to the new veneer options.

rowlandhills · Post by **rowlandhills** » 2012-01-24 01:32

Ah well...what I'd hoped might wind up as a bargain pair of 242s at about £1500 (even though mark ones) actually went for £2250, which is definitely getting too close to the price of a pair of mark 2s to be worth getting.

Good job I'd already decided to hold out...

rowlandhills · Post by **rowlandhills** » 2012-01-24 12:49

Indeed, now there's a pair of "2011 Akurate 242s" (which should be mk2, although I'd want to check by serial number) listed on eBay at £2750, which looks like a bargain...

...but unfortunately they're white, which my wife would never be happy with!

mrco99 · Post by **mrco99** » 2012-01-24 16:57

White ones with black pods would look rather well here, but they seem
already gone. Probably a but-it-now or a typo?

Music Lover · Post by **Music Lover** » 2012-01-26 13:29

rowlandhills wrote: listed on eBay at £2750, which looks like a bargain...

Please stop looking for bargains!
Define your requirements and search for exactly THAT, do not buy something else based on price. You going to regret it, long term!

And buying expensive HIFI, there is surly a reason for a low price.
Instead - look for performance and wait until finding a good unit, and pay little extra getting it.
There are many Linn products out there that don't perform as they should - for various reasons.
Instead, I strongly advice you to buy only from Linn owners and dealers that:
A/ understand Tune Dem
B/ have a track record being honest

anthony · Post by **anthony** » 2012-01-26 16:26

Music Lover wrote:
rowlandhills wrote: listed on eBay at £2750, which looks like a bargain...
Please stop looking for bargains!
Define your requirements and search for exactly THAT, do not buy something else based on price. You going to regret it, long term!

And buying expensive HIFI, there is surly a reason for a low price.
Instead - look for performance and wait until finding a good unit, and pay little extra getting it.
There are many Linn products out there that don't perform as they should - for various reasons.
Instead, I strongly advice you to buy only from Linn owners and dealers that:
A/ understand Tune Dem
B/ have a track record being honest

Wise words!

rowlandhills · Post by **rowlandhills** » 2012-01-26 16:55

Music Lover wrote:
rowlandhills wrote: listed on eBay at £2750, which looks like a bargain...
Please stop looking for bargains!
Define your requirements and search for exactly THAT, do not buy something else based on price. You going to regret it, long term!

Very valid point. It's exactly what I do intend to do this time, hence my plan to audition Majik Isobariks and 242s at home to work out which I want, and then get good ones. I hope to have Anthony help me with the selection and installation, to take advantage of his Tune Dem knowledge and experience.

...I do find it hard to stop looking at eBay to see if there are bargains though! This has been particularly true as there was no dealer near me worth talking to, although I've now found one who I like, even though I need to travel a bit.

Post by **lejonklou** » 2012-01-26 17:31

Music Lover wrote:Please stop looking for bargains!

I agree with this.

When I've spoken to enthusiasts over the last couple of years, I've heard of a few bargains. Right now I can only recall two, both found on ebay and sold by guys who didn't sell to upgrade but rather got rid of their gear because they had lost their interest in it. (Which makes you wonder how the system actually performed...)

I have however spoken to many who've spent lots and lots of time searching for bargains. Some still haven't found the perfect bargain they've been waiting for, others have made purchases they regret.

One example of a sad story is Linn Silver Interconnects. A couple of years ago, I mentioned that I find the older version of the unbalanced Silver interconnect to sound the best. And that the two earliest pairs I have are much better than later, otherwise identical, ones. The difference is hard to exaggerate; my best pair (bought just when the Silver was first released) is like a different cable altogether and totally superior.

I've realised that some enthusiasts are buying second hand original Silver Interconnects and then selling off the ones that perform worse. This means the quality of the early originals that are circulating is gradually shrinking. There has also been a lot of scams where "original" has proved to be "poorly home soldered". And when the connectors have been of another type than shown in the picture.

The practice of selling off bad performing gear applies to more than just interconnects. So ML's advice is very sound: Buy from someone with an honest track record. And if the sum involved is large; listen before purchase.