Yep! 7m, checked for direction (all the Classic 110’s have been best with the text so far), several weeks burn in. In the early days, when I compared one cable against another, the results were pretty inconsistent. This was because although I was ordering from the same supplier, they would get their cables from the cheapest wholesalers so I would end up with cables from different manufacturers. Getting everything directly from Lapp Kabel eliminates this problem, although the cables end up being much more expensive.tokenbrit wrote:Both radial - same length, direction, and burn-in?Spannko wrote: .. next up we have a comparison between 4mm Classic 110 Vs 6mm Classic 110.
Optimal House Wiring
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Re: Optimal House Wiring
Re: Optimal House Wiring
Very thorough - many thanks. I asked because I heard a surprising amount of difference between the clips - more than I'd expected just from 4<>6mm. Do you get the same difference in room, or are the clips 'adding' to the difference, do you think?Spannko wrote:Yep! 7m, checked for direction (all the Classic 110’s have been best with the text so far), several weeks burn in.tokenbrit wrote:Both radial - same length, direction, and burn-in?Spannko wrote: .. next up we have a comparison between 4mm Classic 110 Vs 6mm Classic 110.
I really appreciate the time & effort that you put into this. Curious to know which mm everyone is favouring.
Re: Optimal House Wiring
Yes, this has been really thorough and should be of great use to folks over time, should they get an opportunity to run a dedicated spur to their HiFi. Thanks Spannko!
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I think the clips represent the musical differences quite well, however the sound differences are greater in the room. The sound is more out of the box and sounds less stressed.tokenbrit wrote:I heard a surprising amount of difference between the clips - more than I'd expected just from 4<>6mm. Do you get the same difference in room, or are the clips 'adding' to the difference, do you think?
From that, you might have guessed that everyone prefers the 6mm cable.
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Thanks for the thanks charlie1 & tokenbrit!
Re: Optimal House Wiring
Interesting. Forgot to ask: are the 4mm and 6mm sizes the cable width or the cross-sectional area? I looked at the Lapp website/catalogue, but couldn't figure what specs of Classic 110 you've used, and the site is a little obscure on total csa.Spannko wrote: .. everyone prefers the 6mm cable.
Trying to get a sense of what Classic 110 4 & 6mm might be in AWG. If those are mm², then best I can tell is they're roughly equivalent to AWG 12 & 10 here... a little thicker than expected.
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The sizing refers to the CSA in mm2.
Re: Optimal House Wiring
Good to know, thanks. I have 14 & 12 - guess I need to get some 10.Spannko wrote:The sizing refers to the CSA in mm2.
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What sort of cables do you have?tokenbrit wrote:Good to know, thanks. I have 14 & 12 - guess I need to get some 10.Spannko wrote:The sizing refers to the CSA in mm2.
Re: Optimal House Wiring
I have 14 and 12 in both stranded and solid. Nothing special - just what's available from the local home improvement warehouse. I think the brand is Southwire for both.
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Re: Optimal House Wiring
The cable I’m using can be found on page 44 of the NA catalog.
https://lappdigitallibrary.cld.bz/2016-LAPP-Catalog/44/
It’s the braid free Ölflex Classic 110 (not Classic 110SY, which has a steel braid, or Classic CY, which has a copper braid). In Europe it’s known as Classic 110 YY cable.
https://lappdigitallibrary.cld.bz/2016-LAPP-Catalog/44/
It’s the braid free Ölflex Classic 110 (not Classic 110SY, which has a steel braid, or Classic CY, which has a copper braid). In Europe it’s known as Classic 110 YY cable.
Re: Optimal House Wiring
Cheers. 3 conductor presumably. Not sure what I'd do with 4, 5, or 7...
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Re: Optimal House Wiring
That’s correct. Part #1119603
Re: Optimal House Wiring
I really appreciate your effort - when you say well burned in what is your experience on how much hours a power cable should have at least to make a comparison.
I know it might change even after 2 weeks burn in but what do you think is it more around 48hours or 72hours or even more?
I know it might change even after 2 weeks burn in but what do you think is it more around 48hours or 72hours or even more?
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Burn in time hasn’t been a part of my investigation, so the following is more of a gut feeling than anything based on documented research.Defender wrote:I really appreciate your effort - when you say well burned in what is your experience on how much hours a power cable should have at least to make a comparison.
I know it might change even after 2 weeks burn in but what do you think is it more around 48hours or 72hours or even more?
Some cables seem to improve in sound after about 100 hrs use, and some seem to take a bit longer, possibly over 250 hrs for the thicker cables, but I tend to keep burning them in until I don’t notice any further changes in musicality.
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Re: Optimal House Wiring
I’ve just noticed that I haven’t updated my house wiring experiments since November 2018!
It’s been so long, I can’t remember exactly how I got to where I am now, so I’ll just describe the setup that I’ve finally settled on.
11m of Prysmian 6mm2 Twin & Earth mains cable
The Prysmian cable is a standard “building cable” but manufactured to a higher standard than the cheaper versions which are available on the internet. After comparing the 2.5mm2, 4mm2, 6mm2 and 10mm2 in single and multiple configurations of every type I could imagine, I felt that a single run powering the entire system gave the most musical results. The length of the cable also had an effect on the sound, but to a much lesser degree. However, with the 6mm2 cable I had a slight preference for an 11m length. Cable direction is also important, with the text reading from the consumer unit/fuse box to the system sounding best.
MK Miniature Circuit Breaker (MCB)
After comparing every MCB available (about 7 types), the MK stood out as being significantly better than the others.
In-room Power Distribution
I’m currently using a “hydra” arrangement to power 3 components plus the network switch. But, tbh, I’m going to have to look at this again at some point. I’ve had good results with hydras in the past, but my power supply experiments have totally challenged my beliefs about “star earthing”, because I’ve got a feeling that connecting everything to one point can actually make things worse!
It’s been so long, I can’t remember exactly how I got to where I am now, so I’ll just describe the setup that I’ve finally settled on.
11m of Prysmian 6mm2 Twin & Earth mains cable
The Prysmian cable is a standard “building cable” but manufactured to a higher standard than the cheaper versions which are available on the internet. After comparing the 2.5mm2, 4mm2, 6mm2 and 10mm2 in single and multiple configurations of every type I could imagine, I felt that a single run powering the entire system gave the most musical results. The length of the cable also had an effect on the sound, but to a much lesser degree. However, with the 6mm2 cable I had a slight preference for an 11m length. Cable direction is also important, with the text reading from the consumer unit/fuse box to the system sounding best.
MK Miniature Circuit Breaker (MCB)
After comparing every MCB available (about 7 types), the MK stood out as being significantly better than the others.
In-room Power Distribution
I’m currently using a “hydra” arrangement to power 3 components plus the network switch. But, tbh, I’m going to have to look at this again at some point. I’ve had good results with hydras in the past, but my power supply experiments have totally challenged my beliefs about “star earthing”, because I’ve got a feeling that connecting everything to one point can actually make things worse!
Re: Optimal House Wiring
Thanks for feeding this back to the forum. Very useful.
Re: Optimal House Wiring
Hi Spannko,
Thank you for sharing here important experience for this issue ...
Do you try to compare simple (but checked here) power strip vs your ...
As continue of the same chain ... before power cords ...
Thank you for sharing here important experience for this issue ...
Do you try to compare simple (but checked here) power strip vs your ...
As continue of the same chain ... before power cords ...
Music First ...
Vlado
Vlado
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Re: Optimal House Wiring
I’ve compared power strips to hydras in the past V.A.MKD, and preferred hydras at the time, but because star wiring/earthing hasn’t been totally successful in the DIY Netgear power supply I’ve been playing with recently, I’m not 100% sure hydras are the way to go with power distribution now.
Experimenting with power distribution is next on my project list!
Experimenting with power distribution is next on my project list!
Re:
Having a few electrical issues here in the house and may need some work done. In which case why not grab a silver lining and put in a dedicated circuit!!! Cost/benefit question - is the performance upgrade worth the cost in people's opinion? I have no idea about this sort of thing and certainly don't wish to be out of pocket for marginal improvement. I do appreciate that everyone's grid is different and this could be a very theoretical query. Many thanks.lejonklou wrote: ↑2008-05-02 22:09 Hi John!
I have played with these parameters a bit, but have never been able to A-B dem all the options to the extent that I've understood it completely. I can therefore share some guidlines, but no exact advise:
One dedicated circuit from fuse board and an extension board (distribution block) near the system - YES
Ring - NO
Large fuses (or none) whereever possible - YES
Cabling thickness - difficult! Mixed results with this. The make and type of cable seems to be more important than thickness. Excessive thickness seems to do no good. Check directionality of this cable by listening before final installation.
One question regarding the system: What are you going to use the Solos for if you have powered speakers such as the 350's?
LP12, Lingo 3, Cirkus/Kore, Tramp 2, Basik Plus Ania, Linto
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Re: Optimal House Wiring
p.s. can you clarify on:
Large fuses or none at all?
Ta
Large fuses or none at all?
Ta
LP12, Lingo 3, Cirkus/Kore, Tramp 2, Basik Plus Ania, Linto
Majik Ds, Kisto, Tundra 2.0, Majik 109
Majik Ds, Kisto, Tundra 2.0, Majik 109
Re: Optimal House Wiring
Happy New Year
Maybe this will help a little. I have been installing my own cable for my music system after every move for 40 years now. This is also one of the first actions at friends. Together with the replacement of the circuit breaker with a screw fuse in the house distribution, there is a significant improvement in terms of musicality. If it is difficult to install a cable, exchanging the circuit breaker for a screw fuse is a good way to go.
Cable and cross-section
In my experience, anything over 2.5qmm is suitable. I myself have installed 10qmm, because it was available but also because a length of about 20m was necessary. I have made the best experience with 4qmm. Regarding the direction of the power cable, it is quite simple if there is a roll of cable. The probability that the inner end will be the first to come out of the production machine should help to determine the direction. Even though at the time only one test gave an audibly better result in this regard, I still think this is a good approach. By this I mean that the end of the smaller ring in the middle of the roll has since been placed in the distribution in my installations. Hope this is understandable.
Fuses
Simple screw fuses are preferable to automatic ones. Without fuse? In no case! Apart from that it is not possible, because the house connection is already fused with (depending upon load) 35, 50 or 63A. Imagine a possible short-circuit current with this fuse protection. Therefore, it is strongly advised not to connect cables without fuse protection in the sub-distribution. The best results I get with 25A slow-blowing (Neozed) fuses and 4qmm cable. I have not tested audiophile fuses yet.
My own 10qmm cable is fused with 25A, although 50A would be possible, which is too risky for me.
Nevertheless, some comments on the grounding of the system. As generally known, a good grounding is essential for good sound. With a separate cable to the system is to ensure that the grounding points have as little contact resistance as possible. The same applies to the entire house grounding. I think this is also generally known.
Installing separate cable has always been an improvement. But to optimize the grounding as well. Depending on the installation situation, the optimized grounding can mean musical gain, even if no separate cable can be installed.
Maybe this will help a little. I have been installing my own cable for my music system after every move for 40 years now. This is also one of the first actions at friends. Together with the replacement of the circuit breaker with a screw fuse in the house distribution, there is a significant improvement in terms of musicality. If it is difficult to install a cable, exchanging the circuit breaker for a screw fuse is a good way to go.
Cable and cross-section
In my experience, anything over 2.5qmm is suitable. I myself have installed 10qmm, because it was available but also because a length of about 20m was necessary. I have made the best experience with 4qmm. Regarding the direction of the power cable, it is quite simple if there is a roll of cable. The probability that the inner end will be the first to come out of the production machine should help to determine the direction. Even though at the time only one test gave an audibly better result in this regard, I still think this is a good approach. By this I mean that the end of the smaller ring in the middle of the roll has since been placed in the distribution in my installations. Hope this is understandable.
Fuses
Simple screw fuses are preferable to automatic ones. Without fuse? In no case! Apart from that it is not possible, because the house connection is already fused with (depending upon load) 35, 50 or 63A. Imagine a possible short-circuit current with this fuse protection. Therefore, it is strongly advised not to connect cables without fuse protection in the sub-distribution. The best results I get with 25A slow-blowing (Neozed) fuses and 4qmm cable. I have not tested audiophile fuses yet.
My own 10qmm cable is fused with 25A, although 50A would be possible, which is too risky for me.
Nevertheless, some comments on the grounding of the system. As generally known, a good grounding is essential for good sound. With a separate cable to the system is to ensure that the grounding points have as little contact resistance as possible. The same applies to the entire house grounding. I think this is also generally known.
Installing separate cable has always been an improvement. But to optimize the grounding as well. Depending on the installation situation, the optimized grounding can mean musical gain, even if no separate cable can be installed.
Trust your ears
Re: Optimal House Wiring
In Germany we have a three-phase AC mains supply, I have reserved one phase for my audio system.
So one spur of 16sqmm cable goes into my living room and terminates into a hard wired distribution box. From there 4sqmm cables go to my devices. All devices have Neutrik PowerCon 32amp connectors.
I am very happy with the musicality and sound quality of this wiring.
A blessed New Year 2022 to all!
So one spur of 16sqmm cable goes into my living room and terminates into a hard wired distribution box. From there 4sqmm cables go to my devices. All devices have Neutrik PowerCon 32amp connectors.
I am very happy with the musicality and sound quality of this wiring.
A blessed New Year 2022 to all!
Matt
MBP / Exposure pre + power (both modified) / JBL3677
MBP / Exposure pre + power (both modified) / JBL3677
Re: Optimal House Wiring
Guys many thanks for the advice!
LP12, Lingo 3, Cirkus/Kore, Tramp 2, Basik Plus Ania, Linto
Majik Ds, Kisto, Tundra 2.0, Majik 109
Majik Ds, Kisto, Tundra 2.0, Majik 109