radikal

artikulate · Post by **artikulate** » 2009-09-07 17:34

Hi all,

Im finally going to make the jump from my entry level turntable to a linn----my plan is to get the magik lp12 with radikal for now and upgrade other bits a smoney allows. My question is how much of a difference if any does the klimax radikal make over the standard one---the price is double so I would rather get the standard one if there is no or minimal difference. The linn engineers think there is no difference and but what do you guys think---I wont be able to do a comparison before I buy---your help is much appreciated!!!!!

Ron

David Neel · Post by **David Neel** » 2009-09-07 17:53

I'm told the casing makes negligible difference, and the price difference is almost the same as the cost of a keel. If I had the money for the Klimax Radikal, I'd spend it on the Akurate Radikal and Keel.

Then all you'd need to add to the Majik LP12 would be a better arm, and you'll have a really top-flight turntable.

good luck!

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2009-09-07 18:50

I've heard that a couple or more German dealerships now say it's a definite improvement. One dealers findings that there was no difference was reported on Selleri I seem to recall, but that dealer has now reversed their opinion and admitted that in the first test the AR was burned in but the KR wasn't. Some think it is more than just a subtle improvement on a very well setup system. Frustratingly this is all just hearsay at the moment. I don't know if there are any German Linn forum that members know of???

I'd struggle to justify to myself the price increase for a KR, but without comparing myself, I can't be sure. At least Thomas has ruled out 2 x ARs which is a big help to potential buyers.

If you do dem the AR vs KR yourself, then you need to be quite careful its a fair test. So both units either burned in or new (preferably the former) and use the same shelf / cabling. Hope you can report back if you do hear them :)

Post by **lejonklou** » 2009-09-07 20:43

I haven't compared the Klimax and Akurate Radikal yet. But I can say this much: You are on the right track when deciding to get one of them! It has made such an improvement to my vinyl collection and my enjoyment of it that I find it difficult to exaggerate the effect.

Forget the Keel, forget an expensive arm and forget MC. If your funds are limited, make a Radikal your first choice! Right now I can't tell just how old an LP12 needs to be before you're better off considering anything else before the Radikal, but I'm certain it's an old LP12.

I'd like comparing something like a mid-80's LP12 with pre-cirkus bearing and subchassie, Basik Plus arm, AT-95E and Radikal against a top of the notch (Keel with Cirkus bearing, Trampolin 2, Ekos SE, Akiva) LP12 without Radikal. I have a sneaking suspicion that the Radikal LP12 will win rather easily...

Chris Morton · Post by **Chris Morton** » 2009-09-30 22:30

lejonklou wrote:I haven't compared the Klimax and Akurate Radikal yet. But I can say this much: You are on the right track when deciding to get one of them! It has made such an improvement to my vinyl collection and my enjoyment of it that I find it difficult to exaggerate the effect.

Forget the Keel, forget an expensive arm and forget MC. If your funds are limited, make a Radikal your first choice! Right now I can't tell just how old an LP12 needs to be before you're better off considering anything else before the Radikal, but I'm certain it's an old LP12.

I'd like comparing something like a mid-80's LP12 with pre-cirkus bearing and subchassie, Basik Plus arm, AT-95E and Radikal against a top of the notch (Keel with Cirkus bearing, Trampolin 2, Ekos SE, Akiva) LP12 without Radikal. I have a sneaking suspicion that the Radikal LP12 will win rather easily...

I have two LP12s, one with a pre- circus bearing, Steel sub chasis/old arm-board, fluted plinth (with bracing) and Akito / Klyde, Valhalla (not up and running at the moment and needs some work)

and

LP12 SE (Lingo II, Keel, Ekos SE, Akiva)

I just received a couple of boxes, one Radikal and one Urika.

That's got me a thinkin that an experiment could be performed...

Anyhow Peter Swain will be here on the west coast next week to do his thing with my LP12SE and Isobarik Aktiv system (the things we do for sound :roll: ).

I have a good supply of Tetley tea...

Jeremy Marchant · Post by **Jeremy Marchant** » 2009-10-09 01:16

My understanding is that you can't use a Naim Powerline with a Klimax Radikal, whereas you can with an Akurate, so any improvement of the K over the A would be swamped when you add the better mains lead to the Akurate Radikal.

anthony · Post by **anthony** » 2009-10-09 06:51

Although the powerline has its place with Naim, I did not like it with Linn especially with Dynamik, so I will stick with Klimax ds!

Chris Morton · Post by **Chris Morton** » 2009-10-13 19:41

Well I'm pretty late to the party but had a Radikal and Urika installed in my LP12SE last week. It was not practical to consider doing some comparisons using my older deck since the install of the Radikal is not really plug play: some work needs to be done to cut cables and cable sheathing to the right lengths to dress cables properly (among other things.)

Peter Swain from Cymbiosis took me through the install and I found the whole process to be rather interesting. The final dressing and fitting of the arm cable to arm is a little more involved than I first thought. As Peter has found, an Ekos SE box comes in handy for resting the Tramp on when performing the arm cable and earth cable dressing steps.

Before installing the LP12 upgrades Peter went through some adjustments of my system install. At first glance Peter felt that setup looked pretty optimal. One area he worked on though was the dressing of the cables to and from the Aktiv crossover. Getting them in free space as much as possible without touching other surfaces and under as little tension as possible was the objective. The result was quite a surpise to me and really helped to focus the sound and open up the treble. It just shows that there's always something new to learn with system setup. It's intersting because the techniques Peter applies with cable dressing are taken from the Naim philisophy. Linn's position is that it's not important. Believe me, it's very important, at least in my system.

The Radikal/Urika is now running in and out of the gate the difference was, well, quite amazing. Then again, I don't need to go on about this since it has already been said. I was surprise at how the music is pulled apart and presented in such an new and expansive way. The key is that all this new information is coordinated so well and with such harmony.

One thing that might help some and I'm a little surprised to find out is that the earlier Ekos SEs have a problem with the bias calibration so that you need typically to set it over by about 0.5. A bit embarrasing to say the least but even if you use your ears to set the bias (which I do) you are not likely to find this sweet spot unless you are pointed in the right direction... Hope that helps those who were not aware of this... For my Akiva the tracking weight is set at 1.75 and the bias is set at 2.05.

Post by **lejonklou** » 2009-10-13 20:26

Thanks Chris, very interesting.

I've heard about this Ekos SE antiskating issue. At some point rather recently (those who know more, please do fill me in with the details!), the antiskating system was changed on new Ekos SE's and this is (officially) said to result in a sound improvement.

Apparantly no upgrade has been offered for original Ekos SE's. I'd really like to see that they decide to offer this to those who've bought the best tone arm in the world.

Chris Morton · Post by **Chris Morton** » 2009-10-28 06:30

One other update. I received a new outer platter during my Radikal/Urika upgrade. The outer platter has apparently been improved (unofficially). The new one is lighter and in a direct swap comparison sounded noticeably better than my old platter. In fareness the suspension was sitting a little higher as you might expect so it was not an ideal A/B comparison. Nevertheless one would have expected a worse sound not significantly better sound given the suspension was not set perfectly.

Interesting to hear other people's findings...

Chris.

Post by **lejonklou** » 2009-10-28 11:26

Thanks, Chris!

A new and lighter LP12 platter? Never heard of this!

Anyone who has? I'd like to know the weights, that will make it easy to determine if one has the old or the new.

Lego · Post by **Lego** » 2009-10-28 13:46

I remember when a lighter one came out ..in the early 90s I think..!!??

Post by **lejonklou** » 2009-10-28 14:57

Aha... yes, they did change slightly rather long ago.

But I thought this was a recent change.

Chris, is it possible you could either supply us with the weights of both platters or photos of them (both sides)?

wiresandmore · Post by **wiresandmore** » 2009-10-28 15:36

My platter definitely sits higher post-Radikal than it did with the Lingo. It's the same platter in both cases, mind you.

Post by **lejonklou** » 2009-10-29 12:44

RichardMoore wrote:My platter definitely sits higher post-Radikal than it did with the Lingo. It's the same platter in both cases, mind you.

If the platter is the same, it's just a matter of how the suspension has been adjusted by the installer.

ThomasOK · Post by **ThomasOK** » 2009-10-29 16:48

lejonklou wrote:
RichardMoore wrote:My platter definitely sits higher post-Radikal than it did with the Lingo. It's the same platter in both cases, mind you.
If the platter is the same, it's just a matter of how the suspension has been adjusted by the installer.

I meant to weigh on this as well. As Fredrik says your change could only come from a change by the installer. There is nothing in the Radikal itself that would cause the platter/subchassis to be any higher. The Radikal doesn't effect the suspension and subchassis it is just a swap of the motor and electronics.

Of course, when a good LP12 technician installs a Radikal they will check the rest of the setup and make any necessary adjustments so this could account for the change. If you bought a Urika at the same time it is also possible that the dealer set the suspension a little bit higher to give it more clearance. The Urika is a pretty tight fit inside the LP12 - tight enough that the ground connection on the Keel is moved from the back to the front to sit over a recess built into the top of the Urika so the ground screw doesn't bump on it. I have not found it necessary to raise the suspension on the Radikal/Urikas I have installed but if you like to really bounce the suspension hard to test it you could bottom the Keel out on the Urika.

By the way, I have not yet seen any lighter platter on the LP12 but it has been several months since we sold a new one. I would also be interested to find out more about this. However, I would expect that you would normally want to readjust the suspension a touch lower to compensate for the weight difference so that the height remains the same after installation.

Chris Morton · Post by **Chris Morton** » 2009-10-29 18:25

lejonklou wrote:Aha... yes, they did change slightly rather long ago.

But I thought this was a recent change.

Chris, is it possible you could either supply us with the weights of both platters or photos of them (both sides)?

I still have the old platter from my original LP12 bought back around 1992. I'll weigh them both and post numbers. I'll also take a photo of them side by side (not sure where I'll post it though).

When Peter Swain visited to install my Radikal & Urika he brought me the new platter and commented that another customer had found the new platter to be lighter and had suggested it sounded better. We were both intrigued to check this out and both felt that the new platter he had brought sounded quite a bit better in terms of tune dem.

The only variable here was the fact that the suspension was sitting a little higher. I suppose age could be another variable. Peter confirmed that all was well with the bounce using the old platter prior to doing the comparison.

wiresandmore · Post by **wiresandmore** » 2009-10-29 22:15

ThomasOK wrote:
lejonklou wrote:
RichardMoore wrote:My platter definitely sits higher post-Radikal than it did with the Lingo. It's the same platter in both cases, mind you.
If the platter is the same, it's just a matter of how the suspension has been adjusted by the installer.
I meant to weigh on this as well. As Fredrik says your change could only come from a change by the installer. There is nothing in the Radikal itself that would cause the platter/subchassis to be any higher. The Radikal doesn't effect the suspension and subchassis it is just a swap of the motor and electronics.

Of course, when a good LP12 technician installs a Radikal they will check the rest of the setup and make any necessary adjustments so this could account for the change. If you bought a Urika at the same time it is also possible that the dealer set the suspension a little bit higher to give it more clearance. The Urika is a pretty tight fit inside the LP12 - tight enough that the ground connection on the Keel is moved from the back to the front to sit over a recess built into the top of the Urika so the ground screw doesn't bump on it. I have not found it necessary to raise the suspension on the Radikal/Urikas I have installed but if you like to really bounce the suspension hard to test it you could bottom the Keel out on the Urika.

By the way, I have not yet seen any lighter platter on the LP12 but it has been several months since we sold a new one. I would also be interested to find out more about this. However, I would expect that you would normally want to readjust the suspension a touch lower to compensate for the weight difference so that the height remains the same after installation.

It was fitted with a Keel and set-up properly at the same time - as you say, that's probably the issue rather than anything fundamentally different with the Radikal.

Sounds stunning, mind you :-)

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2009-10-29 23:22

Still no one tune dem'd Akurate vs Klimax Radikal?

Thomas has kindly resolved the question mark over two Akurate Radikals or one. Was there also a proposal to check if the Radikal performs better with a Urika than on its own. Perhaps by connecting a Urika to one side that's not in the LP12 being tested?

Post by **lejonklou** » 2009-10-29 23:58

Chris Morton wrote:I still have the old platter from my original LP12 bought back around 1992. I'll weigh them both and post numbers. I'll also take a photo of them side by side (not sure where I'll post it though).

Thanks Chris! I find this quite exciting. Not that I want the expense of a new outer platter (not cheap!), but if there really is a significantly better one out there, I want to hear it!

I can host the pictures for you if you send them to me. If you lay them side by side and take a picture with at least one third of both platters visible, it would be great. One top side picture and one bottom side.

Charlie: Yes, I proposed that test. I'm really curious about whether the load of Urika improves the sound of Radikal or not. When using only Radikal (no Urika), as I do, it's certainly a very sensitive piece of equipment. Clearly audible what power cord it gets, what shelf it stands on etc. And if you disconnect the blue LED for the front light, it sounds worse! This indicates to me that Radikal is a product that has been very carefully tuned by ear.

Now if it does improve when driving a Urika, it would be perfectly possible to make a dummy load inside an XLR connector, for those who don't use Urika. Plug it in and your Radikal sounds better - wouldn't that be cool?

When making this test, care must be taken not to make a mess of grounds. One safe way would be to use a Radikal LP12 with Adikt, going into an MM stage. This is what you listen to. Then you connect a Urika, to see how the Radikal reacts. If the Urika is mounted inside a different LP12, this "passive" LP12 should not be connected to anything as a ground loop might be created.

Chris Morton · Post by **Chris Morton** » 2009-11-03 22:33

lejonklou wrote:
Chris Morton wrote:I still have the old platter from my original LP12 bought back around 1992. I'll weigh them both and post numbers. I'll also take a photo of them side by side (not sure where I'll post it though).
Thanks Chris! I find this quite exciting. Not that I want the expense of a new outer platter (not cheap!), but if there really is a significantly better one out there, I want to hear it!

Last night I weighed both platters using kitchen scales. The old platter weighed a little more than 5lbs 6oz and the new platter weighed 5lbs 5oz. So there's about a 1 oz difference. Frankly, looking at them side by side they look identical in geometry (identical to the resolution of a glance of the eye :D). Looking at the underside, the finish looks different. Ther surface has a speckled tinge to it for the new platter. This could be just that the platter is brand new but I did hear a rumour that the alloy formula of the platter "might" have changed. Anyhow, I can't be more specific than that and there's not much point in posting pictures since there are not obivous differences to see on a 12Megapixel image except that one platter is clean and new and the other is not.

Hope that clears things up :roll:
Chris.

Post by **lejonklou** » 2009-11-05 01:36

Thanks Chris!

Quite a small weight difference there. 5lbs 6oz is 2.44 kg. 5lbs 5oz is 2.41 kg. One ounce (28 grammes) is less than the difference between various vinyl records!

I will weigh mine to find out what it is. But if the alloy (Zamak) actually is altered, this might be the main reason behind the improvement?

I'd really like to try a brand new LP12 platter myself. I have never seen one with a speckled tinge.

vicdiaz · Post by **vicdiaz** » 2009-11-07 19:34

lejonklou wrote:Thanks Chris!
But if the alloy (Zamak) actually is altered, this might be the main reason behind the improvement?

Wasn't it called 'Mazak'???

Don't bother, just checked Wikipedia and the correct name is 'Zamac', but it seems that since the early 30's it has been called 'Mazac' in the UK and I clearly remember that name from some old Linn LP12 literature.

ThomasOK · Post by **ThomasOK** » 2009-11-07 23:35

vicdiaz wrote:
lejonklou wrote:Thanks Chris!
But if the alloy (Zamak) actually is altered, this might be the main reason behind the improvement?
Wasn't it called 'Mazak'???

Don't bother, just checked Wikipedia and the correct name is 'Zamac', but it seems that since the early 30's it has been called 'Mazac' in the UK and I clearly remember that name from some old Linn LP12 literature.

I was going to ask the same question as I had always heard Mazak as well.

Post by **lejonklou** » 2009-11-08 01:40

Your probably confused! :mrgreen:

Checking Wikipedia, it said something interesting: "The most common zamak alloy is zamak 3, but zamak 2, zamak 5 and zamak 7 are still commercially used."

Which one is the LP12 platter made of? And has it changed? Maybe we should ask someone at Linn about this, it seems ridiculous to guess and I'm sure they don't mind if we order a bunch of new platters in case it's actually improved.