Musical Consonance: The Importance of Harmonicity

General HiFi discussion, using the Tune Method to evaluate performance

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Spannko
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Musical Consonance: The Importance of Harmonicity

Post by Spannko » 2019-12-02 11:38

For quite a while, I’ve felt that TuneDem, as helpful as the method is, doesn’t fully explain the reason for one component or system being better than another. I don’t want this comment to be interpreted as meaning that I dismiss TuneDem, because I certainly don’t. For me, it’s still the best method of comparing and setting up HiFi systems. But, is there more to it?

Experienced TuneDemers can often tell how good something is by hearing just one note, or even by judging the sound a stylus makes as it drops into a groove. The auditory process involved in this is very different to, for example, someone stating that they can follow the tune on an instrument when playing a piece of music through a highly resolving system; each note may be clearly heard, but the instrument could still sound slightly out of tune. So, what is it that TuneDemers can hear? Or, is it more of a question, how do they hear? Hopefully, the following article will explain it way better than I can.

https://pdf.sciencedirectassets.com/27 ... nload=true

beck
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Re: Musical Consonance: The Importance of Harmonicity

Post by beck » 2019-12-03 11:43

A bit like knocking on a plank. You can hear if it is real wood through and through or if it is fake.

I like systems that try to get the core of the recording through to the listener without breaking it up along the way and putting it back together at the end. They sound more real to me. As short a signal path as possible.
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Spannko
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Re: Musical Consonance: The Importance of Harmonicity

Post by Spannko » 2019-12-03 15:01

There’s definitely something to be said for short signal paths. Didn’t Einstein say that signal paths should be as short as possible, but no shorter? I’m sure he did. If we were to follow his guidance (and why wouldn’t we?), just how short should a short signal path be?

Charlie1
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Re: Musical Consonance: The Importance of Harmonicity

Post by Charlie1 » 2019-12-03 16:14

I did have a read and followed it to begin with but I don't understand a lot of what he's talking about, especially in terms of harmonics and what notes are made up of, etc.

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Re: Musical Consonance: The Importance of Harmonicity

Post by ThomasOK » 2019-12-03 19:26

Spannko wrote:
2019-12-03 15:01
There’s definitely something to be said for short signal paths. Didn’t Einstein say that signal paths should be as short as possible, but no shorter? I’m sure he did. If we were to follow his guidance (and why wouldn’t we?), just how short should a short signal path be?
I like your quote! You do want a short signal path and Lejonklou gear has some of the simplest signal paths in the industry. But the question of how short the signal path should be is a tricky one. One might think that an integrated amp would be preferable to separate preamp and amp as you remove the interconnects and extra connectors. However, you also remove the extra control you have from having separate power supplies for the preamp, which handles delicate signals, and the power amps, which have to be more robust. Likewise, you remove the ability to optimize those power supplies for their intended function. Since all Tundras now have the ability for the user to trim the PS voltage to hundredths of a volt for best musical quality, and the current Sagatuns have this done internally when they are built, the importance should be obvious. Additionally, you lose the shielding between these two functions, and in Monos between the two channels.

Using mono units might seem to make the signal path more complex as there are two of each unit, but the signal paths are the same basic length and the advantages of further optimizing power supplies and circuits for each channel, plus having separate ground planes for the two channels, also have obvious musical benefits.
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Spannko
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Re: Musical Consonance: The Importance of Harmonicity

Post by Spannko » 2019-12-03 23:55

ThomasOK wrote:
2019-12-03 19:26
Spannko wrote:
2019-12-03 15:01
There’s definitely something to be said for short signal paths. Didn’t Einstein say that signal paths should be as short as possible, but no shorter? I’m sure he did. If we were to follow his guidance (and why wouldn’t we?), just how short should a short signal path be?
I like your quote! You do want a short signal path and Lejonklou gear has some of the simplest signal paths in the industry. But the question of how short the signal path should be is a tricky one. One might think that an integrated amp would be preferable to separate preamp and amp as you remove the interconnects and extra connectors. However, you also remove the extra control you have from having separate power supplies for the preamp, which handles delicate signals, and the power amps, which have to be more robust. Likewise, you remove the ability to optimize those power supplies for their intended function. Since all Tundras now have the ability for the user to trim the PS voltage to hundredths of a volt for best musical quality, and the current Sagatuns have this done internally when they are built, the importance should be obvious. Additionally, you lose the shielding between these two functions, and in Monos between the two channels.

Using mono units might seem to make the signal path more complex as there are two of each unit, but the signal paths are the same basic length and the advantages of further optimizing power supplies and circuits for each channel, plus having separate ground planes for the two channels, also have obvious musical benefits.
Good point. I’ve not thought about power supplies in that way before, but I can certainly see an advantage.

One thing I’ve often wondered is why doesn’t someone design an amp with the pre and power circuitry in one box and the power supplies in another, with several power inlets if necessary?

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Re: Musical Consonance: The Importance of Harmonicity

Post by ThomasOK » 2019-12-04 17:54

That's an interesting idea. Certainly there have been several preamps with external power supplies, as exemplified by Naim and others, but I don't think I've ever seen an integrated amp like that. With power amps they mostly don't bother as the audiophile market seems to like honking big amps, which can be put on the floor near the speakers if they are mono blocks.
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Spannko
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Re: Musical Consonance: The Importance of Harmonicity

Post by Spannko » 2019-12-04 23:14

Yeah, that’s what I’ve thought. It’s more a case of what’s been, rather than what’s possible.

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Re: Musical Consonance: The Importance of Harmonicity

Post by OscarH » 2019-12-05 14:59

The Musical Fidelity A1008 integrated in fact has a separate power supply with three separate power cords for control/left/right going to the amp proper.

I know nothing about what goes on inside the two respective boxes, nor have a heard the amp in question, but feature-wise it does actually go down the path suggested by Spannko.

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