The Mighty AT95E Becomes The AT-VM95E

General HiFi discussion, using the Tune Method to evaluate performance

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Re: The Mighty AT95E Becomes The AT-VM95E

Post by Defender »

hi tokenbrit
I asked more or less the same question somewhere ... I asked if I now have a Linto and an Arkiv B if it would be an upgrade to buy the Adikt/Slipsik 7 (as I was afraid of the higher running costs of an MC system). So my question was the other way around.
Fredriks answer was that would be a downgrade - the only chance would be to wear the Arkiv down really much and than make that move it would be perceived as an upgrade.
However if the move would be combined with a more close to source upgrade (what the Karousel would be) only than I would perceive it as an upgrade (source first at play).

To answer your question yes the rule is to spent the money first on closer to the source upgrades ... after Karousel into Radikal (edit: forgot the Keel) than into Ekos SE/1. But I am the best against the rule example and I am happy.
Sometimes the money you have is not enough to buy you the more value the source upgrades have.
Especially the Ekos SE/1 is difficult as you barely see it used.

found it meanwhile:
lejonklou wrote: 2020-01-25 21:15 Hi Defender!

That is a step down. If you at the same time upgrade something that is higher in the hierarchy (arm, subchassis, motor), it will be a step up.

I know many who've taken this step down (MC to MM) and the easiest way to cope with it seems to be to run the MC until it's really worn. Then, just before it starts sounding really bad and potentially begin harming the records, it will feel like an upgrade.
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Re: The Mighty AT95E Becomes The AT-VM95E

Post by ThomasOK »

Three things. On the tracking weight thing I think saying low tracking force cannot damage records is making an absolute where there is none. Is it safe to track at .5 grams as was attempted in the 70s? How about .25 grams? If you set the tracking force so low that you are running into mis-tracking then you are definitely damaging the record. However, kept within reason, lower tracking force is not causing record damage. Also not all manufacturers get the optimum force right - hence the Grado explanation I posted. I have also had other cartridges with recommended forces of 2.0 grams that were most musical at 1.9. As has been mentioned several times the best approach is to start at the recommended force and try a little above and below it to find the most musical setting. But it is rare that you have to go more than a quarter of a gram above or below the recommended setting to find the most musical one. Anti-skating force has more variance as a lot of turntables don't have that calibrated very well.

On the hierarchy question the answer is a Radikal and a 95e will musically outperform a Lingo and a Kandid. This was close to proven with Ron's LP12 which had a Radikal, Cirkus bearing and sub-chassis, Basik LV-X and AT95e and easily outperformed an LP12 with Lingo 2, Kore with Cirkus bearing, Ekos 2 and Adikt (and even a superior plinth). It is also indicated by Øyvind I who found that a new Majik LP12 with the Karousel musically outperformed his Klimax LP12 with Cirkus bearing. So within the turntable itself the cartridge comes last and I would say that MC makes no sense until you have a Radikal. That is the reason I have never sold an Accurate LP12 as a Majik LP12 with a Radikal is more musical for less money.

On the question of what it takes to beat the VM95e/c I can't answer as I haven't tried it yet. Ron said at one point that there should only be two cartridges, the VM95 (I assume C) and the Kandid. So there is the extreme version. I son't think Fredrik wants to give up his Krystal and I find it to be a very musical cartridge and I don't think a lot of people want to give up their Adikts. Does it sound better than a Troika? I'd have a hard time with that too, but since you can't buy a new Troika so that you could put both in the same LP12 setup it is a moot point. What can obviously be said is the little AT can certainly provide a lot of musical enjoyment and is the obvious budget champ.
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Re: The Mighty AT95E Becomes The AT-VM95E

Post by OscarH »

ThomasOK wrote: 2020-05-13 15:28
On the question of what it takes to beat the VM95e/c
This is a very interesting point - which MM cartridges are better in absolute, not value for money, terms?

For someone, it could be me, who has no obvious turntable upgrade path and 'only' wants a good cart when the current one is done...

As it stands one would probably be a fool to not give the VM95 a go.... but let's say you actually WANT to pay much more?
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Re: More Bogus Information

Post by Ron The Mon »

lejonklou wrote: 2020-05-10 19:56 Calm down, Ron. Nobody's picking a fight with you, so skip the accusational tone.

What is happening is that your info is being questioned. My suggestion is that you welcome that with open arms. It's a necessity for progress.
Fredrik,
I appreciate your concern for my mental health.

To be clear, the PDF link Spannko provided above was NOT written by anyone from Audio Technica. The "AT" logo is used as S.E.A. is a wholesaler for Audio Technica, not a manufacturer or designer. It is quite deceptive. It is false. Fake. Made-up. Bogus.....

I believe Audio Technica has their own offices in the United States and Europe. In Malaysia, S.E.A. is a box shifter and warranty service center.

If you buy an AT-VM95ML sealed in the box and the instruction sheet from Audio Technica says it will last 1000 hours, are you going to throw the needle out after 300 hours? What about your Linn Krystal and Adikt? I'm sure you will throw those out after 1000 sides of a record played (300 hours) because Spannko linked to a PDF that says so and you must welcome "progress" with "open arms"?

Why are you insistent I welcome inaccurate fraudulent information with "open arms"? How is that "progress"? What "info is being questioned" of mine?

Regarding the "chipping away" nonsense, it is just that; nonsense! With the millions of pages of hi-fi websites out there and the availability of cheap high-powered USB microscopes and editing software, you'd think there would be hundreds of videos out there showing this phenomenon. But there are no videos because it doesn't exist.

The later video (actually from Audio Technica) Spannko linked to is also deceptive in that the beginning of the video hints there could be damage from too light a tracking force. However, later in the video it reads, "If you set too light, the stylus can skip out of the groove on loud or dynamic musical passages.". Later it reads, "Setting it too heavy can cause excessive wear to the stylus and records". Nowhere in the video does it state low tracking force causes wear. This is also reflected in the owners manuals from which the video is based. Notice the words are "can" and "possibly" from the video. All this from Audio Technica themselves.

On the old 95 series (over a period of 35 years), AT used to recommend 2.0 grams tracking plus or minus .5 grams. Now they still recommend 2.0 grams but plus or minus .2 grams. Needle lifespan is the same. What changed? Nothing except the recommended range. The new stylus assemblies have almost exactly the same compliance and same tips, nothing has changed that would lead to wear or damage or tracking. Most importantly, every stylus I've tried on an AT-95 or new AT-VM95 version sounds best closer to 1.5 grams.


Ron The Mon wrote: 2019-09-13 00:16 This subject topic includes all variants of the current AT-VM95 line and its' predecessors including older non-compatible Audio Technica models. Also included here will be discussions of the Linn K5, K9, and K18. Source-first discussions and phono stages relating are also welcome and expected.
Fredrik,
I would prefer all current side discussions in this thread stay here. I find it fascinating that a little $34 cartridge can provoke so much thought and disruption.

The main person here "accepting progress with open arms" is me. The new AT-VM95 series is the very definition of progress. The many changes made to this cartridge and stylus assembly all are done to make it sound better. The majority of you reading this thread haven't heard this gem on an LP12. It is outrageously good. Not just good for the money, but good.

It is silly not to own one just as a backup. Buy the Conical version first. As you are listening, I guarantee you will not be thinking it can't track, has end of side distortion, limited frequency response, bad separation, and all the other hi-fi myths out there.

All you'll be thinking is, "Damn, this sounds good!".

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Q&A with T&R

Post by Ron The Mon »

tokenbrit wrote: 2020-05-12 17:54 Prompted by Mr Pig, but an open question to those in the know: since a K9/conical &/or various shapes of AT(-VM)95 threaten to better the Adikt, and sounds better than a Troika or OC9, what's the next step up from a 95(C) & best MM phono stage/Slipsik? Does Krystal+Entity beat VM95/Adikt+Slipsik, or do you have to budget for better than a Krystal to make it worth stepping up to MC? (asking as the owner of an OC9 & Linto ;)

Further, at what point in the hierarchy does cartridge start to factor in as the 'next upgrade' - is Lingo 4 'good enough' to switch to MC, or does MC make no sense until Radikal? Or, put it another way, keep enjoying MM of choice with Slipsik & Lingo, until funds allow you to get Radikal and motor on to MC/Entity... (after taking a spin on the Karousel ;)
tokenbrit,
I noticed most of the last dozen or so posts on this thread are from those like you, Mr Pig, and others to whom my english isn't your native language. There may be a little bit of a translation issue, so I'd like to clarify a few things.

Mr Pig and I are not saying an AT-VM95C sounds better than a Krystal or OC9. It is in the context of source-first examples.

EXAMPLE: Any Ekos with an AT-VM95C will sound better in every way than an Akito with an Adikt. This example uses the same moving magnet phono stage.

Now let's start throwing monkey wrenches: Does an EkosSE/AT-VM95C into a cheap NAD 3020 sound better than an Akito/Kandid into an Entity? There's the rub. Most moving coil phono stages are of a higher quality and design than moving magnet stages. It is my opinion that you should buy a Lejonklou Gaio or Slipsik to use with an AT-VM95. The cost of running a Krystal for six years (or OC9 for 8 years) will pay for a brand new Slipsik 7 which will last you the rest of your life. Replacement AT styli will cost you nothing because every year you just ask for one as a gift. It makes the perfect stocking stuffer. Even your teenagers can afford to give you one.

Monkey wrench number B: You (tokenbrit) don't work on your own LP12. I suspect about half reading this don't either. If you buy an AT-VM95 online, it makes no economic sense to drive 500 miles to Ann Arbor Michigan to visit Tom O'Keefe. After time, gas, and lodging you are out hundreds of dollars. On top of it, Tom will charge his going rate to reset your LP12. My advice (in addition to others recommending here) is to "downgrade" your cartridge when doing your next LP12 "upgrade". It doesn't just need to be a cartridge downgrade either. You could do as I've done and downgrade the tonearm and cartridge and upgrade the turntable itself.

As to your question of when there comes a time to upgrade the AT-VM95 to a better cartridge; I say it may be never. I recently upgraded my tonearm and the music I'm hearing now is mind-blowing! A huge improvement for nominal outlay.

The bottom line is this; for those who work on their own deck, the cost of trying a $34 cartridge is negligible.

For you it is a giant leap of faith. Especially when the main guy advising you is a nut-job from Detroit who insulted you to your face when we last met.

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Re: Q&A with T&R

Post by V.A.MKD »

Ron The Mon wrote: 2020-05-16 18:30
I recently upgraded my tonearm and the music I'm hearing now is mind-blowing! A huge improvement for nominal outlay.

Ron The Mon
Hi Ron,

Interesting info you post ... What is the tonearm?

I'm interested because as Fredric, Tom, you and also others, highly respect & follow source first ...
Top Spec LP12 / Tonearm ??? / AT-95C.
Music First ...
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Q&A with V&R

Post by Ron The Mon »

V.A.MKD wrote: 2020-05-16 19:23
Ron The Mon wrote: 2020-05-16 18:30
I recently upgraded my tonearm and the music I'm hearing now is mind-blowing! A huge improvement for nominal outlay.
Interesting info you post ... What is the tonearm?

I'm interested because as Fredrik, Tom, you and also others, highly respect & follow source first ...
Radikal LP12 / Tonearm ??? / AT-VM95C.
Vlado,
I will make some recordings and post the tonearm differences. I will award a prize of a brand new AT-VM95C to the first person who can guess my current tonearm.

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Re: Q&A with V&R

Post by V.A.MKD »

Ron The Mon wrote: 2020-05-16 19:45
V.A.MKD wrote: 2020-05-16 19:23
Ron The Mon wrote: 2020-05-16 18:30
I recently upgraded my tonearm and the music I'm hearing now is mind-blowing! A huge improvement for nominal outlay.
Interesting info you post ... What is the tonearm?

I'm interested because as Fredrik, Tom, you and also others, highly respect & follow source first ...
Radikal LP12 / Tonearm ??? / AT-VM95C.
Vlado,
I will make some recordings and post the tonearm differences. I will award a prize of a brand new AT-VM95C to the first person who can guess my current tonearm.

Ron The Mon
:-)
Music First ...
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Re: Marcel Story

Post by Lego »

imarcel wrote: 2020-02-19 16:12
Ron The Mon wrote: 2020-02-14 18:10 Marcel,
What a great story and history!

It appears you have the best sounding AT-VM95 on the planet right now. No wonder it sounds so good; you've already taken it to the limit. It's good to get positive feedback of my tracking and torque settings.

Where is your café/bar? I'd love to have a drink and chat while listening to "vinyl" over Saras.

Ron The Mon
Hello Ron,

my bar is in Berlin/Germany, so I suppose it will be difficult for you to visit. But if you ever are around you are very welcome and we will have a few glasses of wine or a few beers together while talking abount good music (which is most important) and good hifi (which is also important).

https://de.foursquare.com/v/lass-uns-fr ... 20a34621e3

Some years ago the local linn dealer and Mr. Ivor Tiefenbrun were my guests. We had a few glasses of good south german Pinot Noir. At that time I was still running Linn Inteks with the Saras and Kans at the bar. Source were either MD´s (yes minidisc) of recordings from my records or a wadia 170i into a musical fidelity dac for the employees (they mostly use ipods or iphones). Of course Mr. Tiefenbrun adviced me to buy a DS. It was a nice evening.

...meanwhile I am still working on my setup. I got rid of the Urika and installed a Majik Base Board. I had been using the "old" feet with he Urika anyway. The timetable tables were designed to be used with them. I redid the spring adjustment and torqued again. Now that I have a Sturtevant Richmont CAL 36/4 it makes so much more sense.

By the way, if someone is interested: There is a guy selling them new over the german ebay site right now. He wants 230.-€ but is open for offers. So maybe a chance to get one here in Europe for a reasonable price (below 200 ? is that reasonable ?). It´s a bit hard to find because he spelled Richmond instead of Richmont. https://www.ebay.de/itm/303442839971
Please note that I am not the seller nor do I know him.

My turntable has been running many hours a day. If this goes on, I will need a new VM95E stylus before summer.
The Kandid I gave away for rebuilding has not come back. I will report, maybe it´s of interest. But I think it will probably not be anywhere near a new Kandid.

Greetings from Berlin
Marcel
Hi Marcel
Apart from cost what were the advantages and disadvantages changing from Kandid to 95E
I know that tune
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Re: Q&A with T&R

Post by Lemmy »

V.A.MKD wrote: 2020-05-16 19:23
Ron The Mon wrote: 2020-05-16 18:30
I recently upgraded my tonearm and the music I'm hearing now is mind-blowing! A huge improvement for nominal outlay.

Ron The Mon
Hi Ron,

Interesting info you post ... What is the tonearm?

I'm interested because as Fredric, Tom, you and also others, highly respect & follow source first ...
Top Spec LP12 / Tonearm ??? / AT-95C.
Yes Ron, could you share some more info about the tonearm? I (and I’m sure a lot of other people here) would really like to hear about your findings.
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Q&A with L&R

Post by Ron The Mon »

Lemmy wrote: 2020-06-01 11:06
V.A.MKD wrote: 2020-05-16 19:23
Ron The Mon wrote: 2020-05-16 18:30 I recently upgraded my tonearm and the music I'm hearing now is mind-blowing! A huge improvement for nominal outlay.
... What is the tonearm?

...highly respect & follow source first ...
Radikal LP12 / Tonearm ??? / AT-95C.
Yes Ron, could you share some more info about the tonearm? I (and I’m sure a lot of other people here) would really like to hear about your findings.
Lemmy,
I am going to have audio comparisons posted here soon. Your mind will be blown. Have a napkin ready, you will need it.

I am going through all my old recordings and will re-record using the same songs for comparison. I am fastidious when making changes to my hi-fi. I am also quite anal when recording, making sure everything is kept the same. Things like temperature and humidity affect the sound. I have a high traffic road nearby (which is also the local firetruck route) which worsens the sound during the weekdays or when emergency vehicles drive by.

It is frustrating listening to some comparisons in the "Playground" thread when the camera is in a different position, birds chirp only in one clip, there are volume differences, etc. I have made a habit that when I make a video/audio recording, I also snap a few pictures of the hi-fi, overall room, and humidity and temperature conditions (which also have a date-clock), blinds drawn, etc. This way I can get as accurate a comparison as possible.

I also use the same stylus for comparisons. Since the AT-VM95 series (and AT95E) are so inexpensive, I have "broken-in" units I keep for reference purposes. Once a stylus gets around 50 hours, I put it aside and mark it. I keep one of each to compare against others to tell when wear becomes excessive or damage occurs.

This is something you can't do with any low-output moving coil. I hate getting that nagging feeling of getting worse sound from a diamond tip, but no way to prove it. Now I have a standard for each profile type. It is fascinating to me how consistent Audio Technica's styli are from unit to unit. I have compared units to their respective reference and after around 19 hours, they sound identical!

Back to my "new" tonearm; there is no cartridge on the market that offers anywhere near the performance jump for the same price. My most recent interesting experience is using a JICO Shibata stylus on my upgraded tonearm. The JICO Shibata is the absolute worst sounding stylus you can use in an AT95E or AT-VM95 body or K9. [As an aside, one needs to slightly "trim" the plastic upper section of "95-style" units with side-cutters/dykes to fit in VM-style bodies.] The JICO Shibata absolutely aborts the tune. It does however have a HUGE soundstage and is weirdly quiet with gobs of resolution; kind of like the "moving coil sound" many audiophiles like.

What is fascinating from a source-first perspective is the tonearm improvement completely negates the Shibata tune abortion. I mentioned to tokenbrit several posts above to upgrade closer to the source while downgrading the cartridge. I am now saying you can further downgrade by purchasing a Shibata model (JICO or AT-VM).

FACT: Ron's "new-and-improved" "Mystery Tonearm" with a Shibata needle blows away his old Basik arm with the much more tuneful Conical (or Elliptical) diamonds in all aspects. If you have a higher end MC cartridge and are worried your records will be missing something, spend the extra $140 on a Shibata stylus and upgrade further up the chain. It is bewitching.
V.A.MKD wrote: 2020-05-16 19:23I'm interested because as... you['re]... highly respect[ed] & follow source first ...
Hmmmm. Am I "highly respected" on this Forum? I doubt it. There are several on this thread alone questioning what I say, including our courteous host.

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Re: Q&A with L&R

Post by V.A.MKD »

Ron The Mon wrote: 2020-06-02 04:31
Lemmy wrote: 2020-06-01 11:06
V.A.MKD wrote: 2020-05-16 19:23
... What is the tonearm?

...highly respect & follow source first ...
Radikal LP12 / Tonearm ??? / AT-95C.
Yes Ron, could you share some more info about the tonearm? I (and I’m sure a lot of other people here) would really like to hear about your findings.
I have made a habit that when I make a video/audio recording, I also snap a few pictures of the hi-fi, overall room, and humidity and temperature conditions (which also have a date-clock), blinds drawn, etc. This way I can get as accurate a comparison as possible.
Take a time :-) ...

* this will be hard ... we need time to practice Tune Method ...
Music First ...
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Re: Q&A with L&R

Post by Spannko »

Ron The Mon wrote: 2020-06-02 04:31
Hmmmm. Am I "highly respected" on this Forum? I doubt it. There are several on this thread alone questioning what I say, including our courteous host.

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I think you’ll find that you really are respected for your knowledge and experience, Ron the Mon, and “questioning” what you say in no way diminishes that. It’s a necessary part of learning and understanding from the perspective of others.

I look forward to hearing your new arm, it sounds interesting.
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Re: AT-VM95 ...

Post by V.A.MKD »

Ron The Mon wrote: 2020-05-15 00:36 It is silly not to own one just as a backup. Buy the Conical version first. As you are listening, I guarantee you will not be thinking it can't track,
has end of side distortion
, limited frequency response, bad separation, and all the other hi-fi myths out there.

All you'll be thinking is, "Damn, this sounds good!".

Ron The Mon
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This "issue or distortion" in sound of TT in general, is because of ... wrong set-up of geometry or shape of tip of the cartridge (C vs E vs ...).
In my experience I never make valid conclusion ...
With better Tone-arms and cartridges it was less "visible" ... here looks to me that "C" because of shape of tip it don't have ...
Ron do you find that on this issue "C" and "E" are the same = don't have this type of distortion?
Music First ...
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Re: The Mighty AT95E Becomes The AT-VM95E

Post by jffsnfrd »

Hi Ron,

Please forgive me for hitting on a technical issue in my first post but while it is true that the VM95E and VM95C have a 4.0 mV output, The VM95EN, ML and SH have a 3.5 mV output and the old K5, K9 and K18 have a 4.5 mV output. The AT info can be found here: https://www.audio-technica.com/en-us/ca ... m95-series and the Linn info can be downloaded from VinylEngine. I just retired my second gen Adikt from my LP-12/Ittok LVII/Hercules due to excessive inner wall stylus wear and mounted up my old K9 for the first time in 33 years. Listening to the K9 is far more pleasing than I expected and I am now looking into getting a VM95ML or SH that I can mount in a second turntable and swap styli around.
Last edited by jffsnfrd on 2020-09-18 23:03, edited 1 time in total.
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Welcoming Forgiveness

Post by Ron The Mon »

jffsnfrd wrote: 2020-09-18 22:58 Hi Ron,

Please forgive me for hitting on a technical issue in my first post but while it is true that the VM95E and VM95C have a 4.0 mV output, The VM95EN, ML and SH have a 3.5 mV output and the old K5, K9 and K18 have a 4.5 mV output. The AT info can be found here: https://www.audio-technica.com/en-us/ca ... m95-series and the Linn info can be downloaded from VinylEngine. I just retired my second gen Adikt from my LP-12/Ittok LVII/Hercules due to excessive inner wall stylus wear and mounted up my old K9 for the first time in 33 years. Listening to the K9 is far more pleasing than I expected and I am now looking into getting a VM95ML or SH that I can mount in a second turntable and swap styli around.
Hi Jeff,
I forgive you, and welcome.

You are on this thing called "the internet". It appears you may be new to it. What you read on an "internet site" may not be true or accurate. In the case of Vinyl Engine, there is a lot of specious information there. I have copied several photos from there. However, the data on that site is highly inaccurate.

Even before the internet, manufacturers stated "specifications subject to change" in their blurbs.

Do you know how loud a phono cartridge is that has 4.5mv output compared to 3.5mv? It is SUPER loud. I have an acquaintance that wants to hear my LP12. He has a K9. I may measure the coil windings. I need not, as it is quite clear an AT-VM95 is louder.

The entire reason Linn produced the K9 was they could buy a stock AT95 generator assembly dirt cheap. They casted an aluminum body and molded a plastic stylus body cheap. If Linn would have required a higher output coil for the K9, it would have been much more costly. I have taken apart several cartridge bodies and confirmed this. One thing I haven't done is take apart an AT-VM95 and put its' coil into a K9 body; that would be interesting, and is easy to retrofit.

An AT-VM95 body sounds better than a K9 using tune-dem. For the money, it is far better. You can sell your K9 body for about $200 right now. An AT-VM95C is $34. Replacement styli are $21. Yes, twenty-one bucks!!!!

Please remember, I am using a Sturtevant Richmont Torque Screwdriver; Cal 36/4. Read this entire thread for recommended torque values, and experiment. An AT-VM95C torqued properly sounds better than a K9 with any stylus; and is far cheaper.

I have purchased an AT-VM95C, E, and EN. The EN body is made in Japan, supposedly. I also have purchased (several) replacement styli for C, E, EN ML, and SH (and 78). The Japanese body sounds, or looks, no different to the Chinese versions. Maybe that has changed. There is also a "DJ" version body with higher output which I haven't heard.

Listen for yourself, using tune-dem; forget about how it "sounds". Start with buying an AT-VM95C. First put just the stylus in your K9. Then install the entire AT-VM95C. Then buy a Sturtevant Richmont Torque Screwdriver Cal 36/4. This will cost you less than a hundred dollars. When you realize you can sell your K9 body for more than $200, then possibly try other styli. I am telling you, you are a fool if you continue believing gunk on the internet after hearing with your own ears what I'm writing.

If I am wrong, prove it here with audio evidence. Not one person has disproven what I've written on this thread. An AT-VM95C (with stock aluminum screws) is far lighter than a K9, especially with stainless hardware. This brings the counterweight much closer to the pivot point. In your Ittok, it is critical.

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Re: The Mighty AT95E Becomes The AT-VM95E

Post by Spannko »

RTM’s absolutely right. Don’t believe anything you haven’t experienced for yourself.

Sorry for going slightly off topic, but whilst going through the process of designing a linear power supply, I’ve turned to the internet for guidance and advice. Unfortunately, 99.9% of it has been erroneous, typically along the lines of “Transformers, diodes, capacitors, etc can’t affect sound quality”. However, my experience suggests that this well meaning advice is incorrect. As we know, everything matters in HiFi. Just check out becks experiments for proof of that!
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Re: The Mighty AT95E Becomes The AT-VM95E

Post by V.A.MKD »

Spannko wrote: 2020-09-20 11:43 RTM’s absolutely right. Don’t believe anything you haven’t experienced for yourself.

Sorry for going slightly off topic, but whilst going through the process of designing a linear power supply, I’ve turned to the internet for guidance and advice. Unfortunately, 99.9% of it has been erroneous, typically along the lines of “Transformers, diodes, capacitors, etc can’t affect sound quality”. However, my experience suggests that this well meaning advice is incorrect. As we know, everything matters in HiFi. Just check out becks experiments for proof of that!
+1 and use Tune Method it works perfectly ...
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Re: The Mighty AT95E Becomes The AT-VM95E

Post by lejonklou »

+1 from me too on the last three posts.

I have not yet, however, compared a K9 with the AT-VM series. Looking forward to that!
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Re: The Mighty AT95E Becomes The AT-VM95E

Post by jffsnfrd »

Brilliant Ron!

Please share the source for your information on the K9's output or whether it is purely based on the measurements given for the AT 95E. Are you taking your own measurements?

Yes, VinylEngine is only one source, no need to be snarky. I also have the same information directly from the Linn website that I downloaded years ago, although Linn has published spurious information every now and then... Of course, the same cartridge body will have different outputs based on the magnets in the stylus unit. Plug an ATN 12S stylus into a regular AT 12 body and you will find a lower output that with an ATN 12E stylus. Have you ever heard an Empire 888 cartridge with its 8.0 mv. That will wake you up!
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Post by Ron The Mon »

jffsnfrd wrote: 2020-09-21 06:29 Brilliant Ron!
Jeff,
I thought saying "Brilliant!" was a British thing? Are you from Arizona? Because it's a British phrase, I don't quite understand it. Is it like a teenage American saying "Awesome!" when something isn't literally awesome and is overused? Because of my upbringing, whenever I hear the word "brilliant", I think of "bright and colorful".

Anyway, you seemed to be using it as an insult. I also wasn't insulting you in any way; I was being funny. Let's start over again;

I forgive you and welcome!
Please share the source for your information on the K9's output or whether it is purely based on the measurements given for the AT95E. Are you taking your own measurements?
I have shared much on this thread and hidden nothing. I've compared the bodies of two Linn K9s, two Linn K5s, two AT95Es, and four AT-VM95s directly, on the same LP12, and at the same volume within the range of several months. I have made many audio recordings. My set-up skills are brilliant and my ears are awesome.

I am in no way saying volume level has anything to do with tune-dem. Quite contrarily, I was surprised the louder body sounds best; meaning the AT-VM95. My thoughts were poisoned by the myth of low-output moving coils sounding best.

Please tell me your favorite measurement. Tell me which two items you want comparatively measured. I am a manager of a large manufacturing facility, owned by a well-known corporation. I have access to older and newer testing devices. I have thousands of hours experience making, testing, and shipping quality electrical/electronic products. I have hand and machine wound hundreds of load cells and torque sensors; the most accurate in the industry used for testing purposes. Before you respond, I also need to know the testing parameters you know positively point to improving tune-dem.

Back to the K9. Here is a link to Linn's info. Click on K9 (or whichever cartridge interests you). The K9 output shown is 4.5mV. What is the variant? Plus or minus 3db? 1.5db? .5db?

Now go to the AT-VM95 page you linked to on your first post. Click on each individual cartridge and read the specifications. Each cartridge body has identical coil impedance, DC resistance, coil inductance, and T.P grade copper wire. Then why are the Conical and Elliptical models rated at 4mV output and the Japanese nude styli models 3.5mV? The compliance figures possibly point to different magnets. You alluded to this in your second post.

The most simple explanation is the specifications are identical and the output is really 3.78mV for all models and the range is plus or minus 1.5db. Maybe they're all 4mv output plus or minus 3db? Then Audio Technica show a lower output for the more expensive models to attract the audiophool crowd who think lower output is better and "Made in Japan" is better than "Made in China". The reputation of Japanese coil winders is better, right? In fact, I bet Audio Technica has a 104 year old woman who has perfect hearing who is the only person who winds and hand tunes the AT-VM95EN/ML/and Shibata. I bet she also hand-carves the Shibata diamond as well as she has perfect vision too.

I doubt this as all six AT-VM95 styli I've tried (I have the 78 model as well), to my ears, have the same output.

I believe the Linn K5, K9, and K18 specifications were invented by Audiophile Systems when they were the importer of Linn in the U.S. Prior to a decade and a half ago, Linn didn't show specifications for the older models. Linn may have copied the info for posterity. Or perhaps not.

I don't understand why people come to me on this thread and ask me to disprove wrong data and old wives tales. Noone can disprove misleading information and incorrect theories. You can't prove a non-entity doesn't exist.
Of course, the same cartridge body will have different outputs based on the magnets in the stylus unit. Plug an ATN 12S stylus into a regular AT 12 body and you will find a lower output that with an ATN 12E stylus. Have you ever heard an Empire 888 cartridge with its 8.0 mv. That will wake you up!
I am quite acquainted with many high output cartridges. I used to rebuild juke-boxes as a hobby. In fact, I just received a request to rejuvenate a Rock-Ola, which I specialize in. I also have worked on quite a few Wurlitzer models which were all made about five miles from my house. I believe most hi-fi products designed for long-term use sound good musically by default, including juke boxes. Most have well tracking tone-arms and cartridges but are not "hi-fi" in the "sound" sense, but really have a foot-tapping groove.
Yes, Vinyl Engine is only one source, no need to be snarky. I also have the same information directly from the Linn website that I downloaded years ago, although Linn has published spurious information every now and then...[cough-cough (ha-ha)]
Again, I wasn't being snarky. The Vinyl Engine database is loaded with very inaccurate information. I own a certain rare turntable which is belt-drive. For over a decade it continues to be claimed a direct-drive model on vinylengine.com. The Vinyl Engine Forum members do not use tune-dem at all in their discussion forums. The Lejonklou Forum is much different; there is a standard here that doesn't vary.

I plan on posting a few more comparison videos here in the next month. I will have a contest or two giving you a chance to win a free cartridge. Better yet, I just looked and there is a Sturtevant Richmont Torque Screwdriver Cal 36/4 model for sale for $28 with free shipping. Several more are available for a few dollars more. If you buy one and promise to post videos and your findings here, I will send you a brand-new AT-VM95C.

I guarantee you will like the VM Conical stylus better than the stock K9. You will also be amazed at what precision torquing your K9 body will do. If you prefer the AT-VM95 body, you may come out more than $200 ahead on the deal as used K9 prices have increased in the past few months. Once you get hooked on precision torquing, you will never look back.

Send me a private message if you're interested.

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Re: The Mighty AT95E Becomes The AT-VM95E

Post by FairPlayMotty »

Ron The Mon wrote: 2020-09-22 22:38 I thought saying "Brilliant!" was a British thing?
Ron,

I think that's generally true from the etymology. It does make me wonder about its use in Brilliant Corners by Melodious Thunk. My brain is wired for song lyrics, album titles etc.

Great thread! My next cartridge will almost certainly be one of the AT-VM95 variants.
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Post by Ron The Mon »

FairPlayMotty wrote: 2020-09-22 23:54
Ron The Mon wrote: 2020-09-22 22:38 I thought saying "Brilliant!" was a British thing?
I think that's generally true from the etymology. It does make me wonder about its use in Brilliant Corners by Melodious Thunk. My brain is wired for song lyrics, album titles etc.
FPM,
A bad brain indeed. I knew of Thelonious Monk but looked up and was expecting something sounding crazily "brilliant" by Melodious Thunk, thinking them an avant garde cover band. Instead, Spotify sent me to a song by David Biedenbender called Melodious Thunk. It is a really cool, Monk-inspired symphonic piece. The recording quality of the record is also fantastic. Thanks for the accidental recommendation.

I get what you mean about the use of "brilliant" in the Monk case. Many Monk pieces are clever inner mind descriptions. I picture "Brilliant Corners" as being about a room in which the musicians colorfully paint each corner during the four solos melodically and with bright colors. The beginning of the drum solo totally reminds me of someone brush painting a wall regularly, then him getting nutty.

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Re: The Mighty AT95E Becomes The AT-VM95E

Post by ThomasOK »

This may or may not factor into this discussion, but I thought I should note that different companies often use different modulation levels on the record for their output level specs. This makes them often much harder to compare.
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Post by Ron The Mon »

ThomasOK wrote: 2020-09-23 21:42 This may or may not factor into this discussion, but I thought I should note that different companies often use different modulation levels on the record for their output level specs. This makes them often much harder to compare.
Tom,
I just realized you may have been working for Audiophile Systems during the release of the K9. How modulated was their test record? I know you didn't do the testing as the figure would have been far more accurate, like 4.387mV output at modulation level 3.5, first pressing #837567.

The Linn Adikt (and variant Goldring 1042, which I have owned) is rated at 6.5mV output. Does anyone have an opinion (using their ears) if it is louder than a K9? I have directly compared a K9 to a 1042 and didn't notice a difference. I remember being told the Rega RB100 (which is my all-time favorite cartridge after the Troika) overloaded most phono stages. The RB100 cartridge is also a 1042 variant and is louder than a K9, but not by much.

Hmmm. Those damn modulations must be at it again.

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