Playground for practical listening exercices

General HiFi discussion, using the Tune Method to evaluate performance

Moderator: Staff

ThomasOK
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2720
Joined: 2007-02-02 18:41
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by ThomasOK » 2020-02-13 19:05

Charlie1 wrote:
2020-02-13 12:34
I was gonna say 'what could go wrong with a design like that', but with over 20 drive units, I guess the answer is 'quite a lot.'
Over 20? There are 63 drivers in each. But they still aren't the winner (loser?). I don't know who made a speaker with the most drivers, but this McIntosh behemoth, the XRT2K, has to be in the running with 110 drivers (drivels) per side.

Image
The LP12 Whisperer
Manufacturer, Distributor, Retailer and above all lover of music.

Defender
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 312
Joined: 2018-02-14 22:35

Re: Longwell vs. Lejonklou Volex Cable

Post by Defender » 2020-02-13 19:47

tokenbrit wrote:
2020-02-13 15:15

Do you have any thoughts on whether this is because the single cable change is on the KRadikal, so high up the system hierarchy, or would you expect similar improvement going from 2 Longwells on the Sagatun Monos, to 2 of the latest Lejonklou cables on the preamps? Trying to figure priority and number of cables needed across the black boxes... if you have any left unspoken for ;)
I will answer with my subjective opinion.
Does it really matter?
What I heard would make me go the safe track and change at least the 3 cords you are speaking about ... if not more. A pair of Linn Silver‘s is probably 300-400USD and would only improve one device connection. So for less than half the price you improve 3 devices that is what I call a bargain. By the way if Ron thinks of buying one that should be a clear indicator 😉 ... at least I am going with what Ron likes (I trust his ears as much as Tom‘s and Fredrik‘s)

tokenbrit
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1001
Joined: 2012-03-22 19:47
Location: New England

Re: Longwell vs. Lejonklou Volex Cable

Post by tokenbrit » 2020-02-13 20:48

Defender wrote:
2020-02-13 19:47
Does it really matter?
Long term, probably not. Short term - financially - yes, especially when it could be rather more than three that I need, hence the question(s) to Tom on priority, and numbers/availability.
There's always the outside chance that the new cable makes disproportionately more difference on the KRadikal, or that the new cables only make a tangible difference on systems at the level of Tom's. I'm not fortunate enough to own that level of system, but I do have Longwells & Silvers already, and prefer to be judicious in my spending... And, since you trust RtM, you'll notice that he's starting with just one ;)

Defender
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 312
Joined: 2018-02-14 22:35

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Defender » 2020-02-13 21:17

I understand you probably more than some else in the forum - in this case buy the one for the Radikal and the ones for the Sagatun Monos in 2-3months from now.
I am saying this because I am sometimes not sure which clip has the better tune - in this case it was obvious for me. I need to get 4 pcs even though I just bought just 3 pcs from the former ones half a year ago - but no regrets - thank you Fredrik for still finding better ones 😀
Actually I owe Fredrik a lot more than he charges for his products just for the advice through this forum and the enjoyment he brings to my life with his products.

But now I will leave the space for Thomas to comment.

ThomasOK
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2720
Joined: 2007-02-02 18:41
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by ThomasOK » 2020-02-13 23:27

Hey tokenbrit! Due to the hierarchy the AC cable to the Radikal is always going to make the most significant improvement. But I have found the improvements of cables are quite audible down the line. I just told a story to another in a PM that illustrates this. A few years back a customer who had just bought a Rega Apollo came into the store with a big, braided power cable that he bought for $600. He had connected it to the Apolla and found it worse than the stock Rega one and wondered if he was crazy. We compared it on the store Apollo and there was no question the Rega AC cable was more musical. I asked if he wanted to hear something else and I plugged in a Linn AC cable (I don't remember the exact one but I think it was pre-Longwell). He was amazed how much better it was and when he heard the price was $35 (now $40) he bought two of them. AC power is pretty crucial to the sound of the system since it is what is driving everything, in essence being modulated by the music signal (a gross oversimplification, but you get the idea), so it is not surprising the improvements a good cable can make anywhere in the system.

But actions speak louder than words so here are two clips, Clip 1 all Linn Longwell cables, Clip 2 Lejonklou Volex cables on KRadikal and SINGularities. If you would like more than one instrument to make your judgement a fiddle joins in right about the 1:30 mark. I will have a full loom for the show and should have enough available but the response has been more than I originally expected and I have around 20 sold already, not including those I will appropriate for myself. But I have a fair number more than that coming in over the next couple of weeks. They are selling for $40US each.

Clip 1
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ihqy703li0yki ... m.mov?dl=0

Clip 2
https://www.dropbox.com/s/sfvdb63ucxb4v ... m.mov?dl=0

A little addendum. I sent these two clips to Simon, who heard the single cable A/B in the room and he immediately ordered four for his system, which coincidentally includes a Rega Apollo with a Linn power cable on it that he preferred over the Rega one (he is not the person mentioned above - just an amusing coincidence).
The LP12 Whisperer
Manufacturer, Distributor, Retailer and above all lover of music.

Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 3048
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 » 2020-02-14 00:09

Big difference between the cables. I'm much more prone to listen to the sounds being created by your system with the Linn cables. With the Lejonklou cables there is no temptation since its much more real and seems like listening to real (and better) musicians, even digitised through to my phone. You must be having a great time with these!

Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 3048
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 » 2020-02-14 00:17

ThomasOK wrote:
2020-02-11 20:30
[It turns out this piece of music has a very interesting and convoluted history. It was one of the last two songs Peter Green (who some at the time considered a bigger guitar god than Eric Clapton) wrote for Fleetwood Mac before succumbing to the problems caused by too many hits of acid. It was written in two parts and Green considered part 1 to be a "throwaway riff" putting his energy into part two on which he is said to have played all the instruments except the piano (although I wonder if Fleetwood didn't do the drumming near the end, but it's relatively simple drumming so who knows).

Green was surprised when the record company decided to make "Oh Well" a single rather than put it on the album (as was common practice in the 60s) and lobbied unsuccessfully to have part 2 be the A side. It ended up the B side with part 1 the A side. Fleetwood and McVie bet Green 8 pounds apiece that "Oh Well" would flop. Instead it hit #2 on the UK charts and stayed in the charts for 16 weeks also charting elsewhere. It was also the first Fleetwood Mac song to chart in the US although it only reached #55.

After the single came out "Oh Well" was added to the US versions of "Then Play On" joining the two parts of the track into one 8:56 piece simply entitled "Oh Well". This is what is on my record, but may explain why I had such a hard time hunting it down years ago when I fell in love with the second part of the track. It wasn't on early US pressings of the record and I don't think it was on any UK pressings. So it might be hard to track down but certainly worth it.
Thanks for sharing this interesting story.

I played the album again today and enjoyed it. I think I only played the A side a couple of times. I have too many LPs in the queue and stuff often gets forgotten about.

beck
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1449
Joined: 2012-10-22 22:25

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck » 2020-02-14 08:06

Charlie1 wrote:
2020-02-14 00:09
Big difference between the cables. I'm much more prone to listen to the sounds being created by your system with the Linn cables. With the Lejonklou cables there is no temptation since its much more real and seems like listening to real (and better) musicians, even digitised through to my phone. You must be having a great time with these!
+1

User avatar
V.A.MKD
Active member
Active member
Posts: 188
Joined: 2019-10-09 15:33
Location: Skopje / Europe
Contact:

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by V.A.MKD » 2020-02-14 08:33

ThomasOK,
This is comparing of 2 different songs ..... :), or on same song 2 different improvisations ... violin made sense on second clip ...
Clip 2 is better for me, tune / melody have sense on Clip 2 ...
Music First ...
Vlado

User avatar
V.A.MKD
Active member
Active member
Posts: 188
Joined: 2019-10-09 15:33
Location: Skopje / Europe
Contact:

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by V.A.MKD » 2020-02-14 08:44

ThomasOK wrote:
2020-02-13 23:27
AC power is pretty crucial to the sound of the system since it is what is driving everything, in essence being modulated by the music signal (a gross oversimplification, but you get the idea), so it is not surprising the improvements a good cable can make anywhere in the system.
Or starting from the "Wall", important part of any system ... so what first ???
Music First ...
Vlado

User avatar
Tendaberry
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 314
Joined: 2010-08-30 16:08
Location: Hamburg

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Tendaberry » 2020-02-14 16:17

V.A.MKD wrote:
2020-02-14 08:44
Or starting from the "Wall", important part of any system ... so what first ???
This is definitely something you should look into: the best wall socket! Much better than ordinary or "hi-fi" wall sockets.
https://www.produktgesellschaft.de/de/s ... plast.html
I don't know if this is the type you use in your country though...

User avatar
Tony Tune-age
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 917
Joined: 2009-12-19 19:07
Location: United States

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Tony Tune-age » 2020-02-14 16:43

Good point Tendaberry. I installed two Hubbell IG8300 Isolated Ground Receptacles in place of the outlets that were originally installed. It was an improvement, and it was an affordable upgrade as well. Several companies make these products at various price ranges, but the Hubbell works just fine for a lot less money.

Cheers
Tony Tune-age

User avatar
V.A.MKD
Active member
Active member
Posts: 188
Joined: 2019-10-09 15:33
Location: Skopje / Europe
Contact:

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by V.A.MKD » 2020-02-14 18:46

Tendaberry wrote:
2020-02-14 16:17
V.A.MKD wrote:
2020-02-14 08:44
Or starting from the "Wall", important part of any system ... so what first ???
This is definitely something you should look into: the best wall socket! Much better than ordinary or "hi-fi" wall sockets.
https://www.produktgesellschaft.de/de/s ... plast.html
I don't know if this is the type you use in your country though...
Hi Tendaberry,
Yes, this is the Type that Must be used by standardization (previous DIN, now EN) ... Thank you for your suggestion and please feel free to suggest even more ...
Have you try it ...
Yes, for sure I will look and try to find it ...
When start here and say from The Wall, I start with several Power Strips and Power Cords (tests are in progress and will report) and totally miss issue with Wall Socked ... Now I will go one step "beck" and continue ...
Thank you ...
Music First ...
Vlado

User avatar
V.A.MKD
Active member
Active member
Posts: 188
Joined: 2019-10-09 15:33
Location: Skopje / Europe
Contact:

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by V.A.MKD » 2020-02-14 18:52

Tony Tune-age wrote:
2020-02-14 16:43
Good point Tendaberry. I installed two Hubbell IG8300 Isolated Ground Receptacles in place of the outlets that were originally installed. It was an improvement, and it was an affordable upgrade as well. Several companies make these products at various price ranges, but the Hubbell works just fine for a lot less money.

Cheers
Excellence ... I will check and try to find Euro / Shuko in their product portfolio ...
Thank you Tony
Music First ...
Vlado

ThomasOK
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2720
Joined: 2007-02-02 18:41
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by ThomasOK » 2020-02-14 19:28

Ha! Now I'm the one who broke the 100 page mark. :-)

Go back to the wall socket? i went back to the electrical box and wired my system for 230 Volts instead of 115. Separate circuit breaker, heavier gauge wire (which may or may not be better) and tested for most musical direction before installing, to better sounding AC socket. I suppose I should have listened to various brands and gauges of Romex, but you have to draw the line somewhere!
The LP12 Whisperer
Manufacturer, Distributor, Retailer and above all lover of music.

ThomasOK
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2720
Joined: 2007-02-02 18:41
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by ThomasOK » 2020-02-14 19:32

Thanks for the comments on the latest clips. Yes, I note quite an improvement from the three cables and look forward to getting the rest of them in place, probably sometime next week. The music is so much more lucid and real, I felt that somebody was trying to play the violin in the first clip. Listening to the improvement these cables make it feels to me like the system was just waiting for this new cable to arrive in order to reveal what it can really do. It should be one heck of a show at Axpona!
Last edited by ThomasOK on 2020-02-15 16:49, edited 1 time in total.
The LP12 Whisperer
Manufacturer, Distributor, Retailer and above all lover of music.

User avatar
V.A.MKD
Active member
Active member
Posts: 188
Joined: 2019-10-09 15:33
Location: Skopje / Europe
Contact:

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by V.A.MKD » 2020-02-14 19:50

ThomasOK wrote:
2020-02-14 19:28
Ha! Now I'm the one who broke the 100 page mark. :-)

Go back to the wall socket? i went back to the electrical box and wired my system for 230 Volts instead of 115. Separate circuit breaker, heavier gauge wire (which may or may not be better) and tested for most musical direction before installing, to better sounding AC socket. I suppose I should have listened to various brands and gauges of Romex, but you have to draw the line somewhere!
Hahahahaha ... :)
No no no ... first to check what is better ... Hydro Power Station, Nuclear, Sun or ...
Many years ago I check breakers and install new ... but not with Tune Method ... wires are standard ... But wall socket is first and that is "red line" ... not big investment, fast to do and ...
Sorry forget to mention, in Europe we are already 230VAC/50Hz maybe UK is 240VAC ...
That was jokes Thomas, but yes, "line" must be and for me it's wall socket ... for you it is one step back since that you have to go up to 230VAC, because of better sound of all Lejonklou products as I read here ...
Music First ...
Vlado

User avatar
Tony Tune-age
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 917
Joined: 2009-12-19 19:07
Location: United States

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Tony Tune-age » 2020-02-14 21:16

V.A.MKD wrote:
2020-02-14 18:52
Tony Tune-age wrote:
2020-02-14 16:43
Good point Tendaberry. I installed two Hubbell IG8300 Isolated Ground Receptacles in place of the outlets that were originally installed. It was an improvement, and it was an affordable upgrade as well. Several companies make these products at various price ranges, but the Hubbell works just fine for a lot less money.
Excellence ... I will check and try to find Euro / Shuko in their product portfolio ...
Thank you Tony
You're welcome V.A.MKD
Tony Tune-age

El Mero Mero
Member
Member
Posts: 16
Joined: 2007-11-04 22:38
Location: Stockholm

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by El Mero Mero » 2020-02-14 21:54

ThomasOK wrote:
2020-02-13 23:27
But actions speak louder than words so here are two clips, Clip 1 all Linn Longwell cables, Clip 2 Lejonklou Volex cables on KRadikal and SINGularities. If you would like more than one instrument to make your judgement a fiddle joins in right about the 1:30 mark. I will have a full loom for the show and should have enough available but the response has been more than I originally expected and I have around 20 sold already, not including those I will appropriate for myself. But I have a fair number more than that coming in over the next couple of weeks. They are selling for $40US each.

Clip 1
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ihqy703li0yki ... m.mov?dl=0

Clip 2
https://www.dropbox.com/s/sfvdb63ucxb4v ... m.mov?dl=0
Hello ThomasOK! Can you please record some more dynamic music like rock or punk? I am curious to hear how those Quad ESL handle that kind of music. I usually don't listen to a single guitar or base without vocals. That kind of music is a little "hifi-show" to me.

beck
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1449
Joined: 2012-10-22 22:25

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck » 2020-02-14 21:54

I changed my lk100 power cord to an old volex I had lying around from my Linn Pretek.

Before: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ec5b5ha1letbl ... 6.mov?dl=0

After: https://www.dropbox.com/s/9931szhw117y0 ... 9.mov?dl=0


Friday bonus party track:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/75b373n639xw7 ... 4.mov?dl=0

:-)

Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 3048
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 » 2020-02-14 23:58

Nice improvement and can't say no to some boogie on a Friday night.

Spannko
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 890
Joined: 2008-01-24 21:46
Location: East of The Black Country, UK

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Spannko » 2020-02-15 02:41

The difference between these two cables is totally crazy!!!

beck
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1449
Joined: 2012-10-22 22:25

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck » 2020-02-15 07:22

Spannko wrote:
2020-02-15 02:41
The difference between these two cables is totally crazy!!!
My view is that it is not so much the cable itself but all the work with the system that has been done along the way. The cable by hitting the mark just reinforce all the good work with equipment and setup.

OscarH
Active Member
Active Member
Posts: 96
Joined: 2019-03-14 10:57
Location: Exile on Dane St.

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by OscarH » 2020-02-15 09:00

beck wrote:
2020-02-15 07:22
Spannko wrote:
2020-02-15 02:41
The difference between these two cables is totally crazy!!!
My view is that it is not so much the cable itself but all the work with the system that has been done along the way. The cable by hitting the mark just reinforce all the good work with equipment and setup.
I like that view...

Whilst acknowledging that the hierarchy does place the cables in question very high, one can’t help but wonder whether the effect would be the same with less refined/revelatory downstream components and setup. I mean, most would probably agree that either of the two clips are in fact very good.

Another point, which has been nagging me for a while... at what point are the variations in digital playback (iPhone recording, cloud storage, download, iPhone playback etc.) greater than the variations between actual conditions recorded on clips?

beck
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1449
Joined: 2012-10-22 22:25

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck » 2020-02-15 09:26

I do not know if this answers your last question but I have tried to upload a clip via dropbox onto the forum and then downloading it again directly from the forum to my ipad and the two versions I then had were ”identical”.

Another thing: using the clips as guiding line my system has only improved it’s ability to play music.

In short: it works! :-)

Post Reply