Playground for practical listening exercices

General HiFi discussion, using the Tune Method to evaluate performance

Moderator: Staff

Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2751
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 » 2019-07-12 10:07

Regardless of preferences, like tokenbrit, I'm really surprised how much difference it makes - crazy when you think of the small change that was made.

u252agz
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 421
Joined: 2013-10-03 12:44
Location: UK

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by u252agz » 2019-07-12 12:34

tokenbrit wrote:
2019-07-11 21:47
More musically together, and better balanced with. Loses something (a lot) without, and changes the presentation to more vocal fwd almost to the point of shouty for me. I can understand Charlie liking it for a more raw & immediate connection to the vocalist; it just loses too much overall for me though. Surprising amount of difference between the two, but definitely with for me thanks, and thanks for posting.
I agree
KDS2/Sagatun Tundra Monos /242s /LP12 Kore-KRad-Ekos SE/Slip 7

Sneaky/RP3/Slip 6.1/ Boazu/ Komp110

tokenbrit
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 859
Joined: 2012-03-22 19:47
Location: New England

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by tokenbrit » 2019-07-13 00:02

beck wrote:
2019-07-12 07:13
Without the block is the gig I would attend... Less brain, more body.
Does that mean I'm more brain, less body? Thank you :)
I can see the attraction in each presentation. It's just that with is a whole performance, for me, whereas without is a lead performance with the backing a bit farther back. Maybe, as a musician, you're more comfortable / better at picking up on the lead (vocal or percussion) and following or filling in around, while I like the musicians - all of them - to bring it together for me ;)

beck
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1205
Joined: 2012-10-22 22:25

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck » 2019-07-13 00:28

tokenbrit wrote:
beck wrote: Without the block is the gig I would attend... Less brain, more body.
Does that mean I'm more brain, less body? Thank you :)
I can see the attraction in each presentation. It's just that with is a whole performance, for me, whereas without is a lead performance with the backing a bit farther back. Maybe, as a musician, you're more comfortable / better at picking up on the lead (vocal or percussion) and following or filling in around, while I like the musicians - all of them - to bring it together for me ;)
I hear the attraction in each presentation too and it is kind of comforting that we can disagree (a little) again as we have done in the past! :-)

Thomas system sounds great and he knows best what he likes to listen to.
............in our thoughts.............

User avatar
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 4325
Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by lejonklou » 2019-07-13 01:10

I feel that the song as a whole is better with the damping pad. But it also seems to loose a bit of the dynamics that are present without the pad.

As I've done this comparison live many times, I feel the clips don't quite do it justice. Because in the room, the presentation is a lot more dynamic and without the pad it just gets more chaotic, while with the pad everything is kept in check and balance. And the consensus from others in the room has always been 100% in favor of the pad in place.

Worth noting is that with the latest incarnation of the Harmoni rack, the washer in between the thick and the thick shelf has been changed. And as a result, you no longer need the damping pad. And to make it even better, you can also add another thick shelf (making it thick-thin-thick on the bottom shelf), and you can place a unit on that shelf without loss of performance.

I still haven't tried this latest version of the bottom shelf of the Harmoni rack, but I will soon. It's called Schabrak.

beck
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1205
Joined: 2012-10-22 22:25

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck » 2019-07-13 09:19

A few points:

It is easy enough to hear that Thomas setup is tuned into the “block on” sound and it sounds great that way. Block off is as you say Fredrik a bit chaotic and I do think it can be heard in the clip.

Todays mantra in the hifi industry is to hear everything all the time and it has been for some time. I personally do not buy into this mantra. I have even listened to Naim people saying it.
I feel that you loose something very important when “making everything obvious to hear”.

A loss of human nature embedded in the music. Every human feeling gets ironed out loosing some of its power to touch our souls. Listening becomes more like observing the music than feeling it.

The most important message to anyone is still to trust their own gut feeling when listening not letting anyone dictate how they should feel (myself included.... :-)).
............in our thoughts.............

User avatar
Tendaberry
Active member
Active member
Posts: 240
Joined: 2010-08-30 16:08
Location: Hamburg

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Tendaberry » 2019-07-13 10:05

I agree with Tokenbrit: it's clearly better with the block in place. It gets heavy-handed, clumsy and looses the natural swing without it.

Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2751
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 » 2019-07-13 11:51

These occassional split differences of opinion are always interesting. For me, they highlight how different people can sometimes experience music in different ways.

Whilst I have the same preference as beck, I'm not sure I can 100% relate to his explanation. For me, 'block off' just has better rhythm and I react to it in a more engaged way.

I too can hear the less chaotic impact of 'block on' - it just doesn't do as much for me for some reason.

beck
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1205
Joined: 2012-10-22 22:25

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck » 2019-07-13 14:40

Charlie1 wrote: ..............and I react to it in a more engaged way.
As I will always tell anyone who ask me: It is not what you think you hear, it is how you react to what you hear. :-)
............in our thoughts.............

ThomasOK
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2443
Joined: 2007-02-02 18:41
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by ThomasOK » 2019-07-13 21:13

I think Fredrik hit the nail on the head with his comments. In the room the without pad track sounds more forceful but not pleasantly so. The cymbal hits sometimes shatter and the voice becomes more coarse, all while overshadowing some of the other instruments. I would say that a good analogy would be the sound of a somewhat worn stylus that starts emphasizing the louder sounds through a small amount of breakup - it sounds a bit more dynamic but not as together or informative. It definitely doesn't move me as much, emotionally or physically. To me this comes through on the clips as well, but not as much as it does in the room.
Manufacturer, Distributor, Retailer and above all lover of music.

ThomasOK
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2443
Joined: 2007-02-02 18:41
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by ThomasOK » 2019-07-13 21:16

beck wrote:
2019-07-13 09:19
A loss of human nature embedded in the music. Every human feeling gets ironed out loosing some of its power to touch our souls. Listening becomes more like observing the music than feeling it.
I would say that this is a very good indictment of the music industry today as well. The "perfection" of massaging all the notes through ProTools, etc. has robbed much (if not most) new music of any real life and joy.
Manufacturer, Distributor, Retailer and above all lover of music.

markiteight
Active member
Active member
Posts: 117
Joined: 2012-01-13 01:50
Location: Seattle, Wa. USA

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by markiteight » 2019-07-17 01:06

I'm a bit late to the party but it's been a while since I've been close to a computer for any significant period of time.

I listened to Thomas' latest clips before reading the replies and found the conclusions really fascinating. After listening to the first clip twice through it wasn't until the second clip that the head bopping and foot tapping began. The music flows on the second clip in a way that is more engaging and makes it easier to connect with the musicians. I was completely sold on clip 2...until the end. In the 2nd clip the more rounded leading edges of notes and the softer attack drained away some of the life from the music that's there in full force on clip 1. It wasn't until the percussion at the end of the track (which sounded a bit timid and confused compared to clip 1) that I fully understood what Beck meant when he said, "Without the block is the gig I would attend." Clip 1 sounds like the system is doing it's damnedest to fool the listener into believing they're listening to live music (and doing a REALLY good job of it). In clip 2 the system makes no excuses for being a recording and just plays the music to the best of its ability. It sure would be nice if we could inject some of clip 1's life into clip 2's tune, but I get the impression from Thomas and Fredrik's followup comments that that's indeed what's heard in the room with the pad in place.

Thank you for the fascinating and fun clips, Thomas. This makes me reeeeely wish I had the opportunity to hear first hand what these stands can do.

Post Reply