Playground for practical listening exercices

General HiFi discussion, using the Tune Method to evaluate performance

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Charlie1
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 » 2019-07-12 10:07

Regardless of preferences, like tokenbrit, I'm really surprised how much difference it makes - crazy when you think of the small change that was made.

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by u252agz » 2019-07-12 12:34

tokenbrit wrote:
2019-07-11 21:47
More musically together, and better balanced with. Loses something (a lot) without, and changes the presentation to more vocal fwd almost to the point of shouty for me. I can understand Charlie liking it for a more raw & immediate connection to the vocalist; it just loses too much overall for me though. Surprising amount of difference between the two, but definitely with for me thanks, and thanks for posting.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by tokenbrit » 2019-07-13 00:02

beck wrote:
2019-07-12 07:13
Without the block is the gig I would attend... Less brain, more body.
Does that mean I'm more brain, less body? Thank you :)
I can see the attraction in each presentation. It's just that with is a whole performance, for me, whereas without is a lead performance with the backing a bit farther back. Maybe, as a musician, you're more comfortable / better at picking up on the lead (vocal or percussion) and following or filling in around, while I like the musicians - all of them - to bring it together for me ;)

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck » 2019-07-13 00:28

tokenbrit wrote:
beck wrote: Without the block is the gig I would attend... Less brain, more body.
Does that mean I'm more brain, less body? Thank you :)
I can see the attraction in each presentation. It's just that with is a whole performance, for me, whereas without is a lead performance with the backing a bit farther back. Maybe, as a musician, you're more comfortable / better at picking up on the lead (vocal or percussion) and following or filling in around, while I like the musicians - all of them - to bring it together for me ;)
I hear the attraction in each presentation too and it is kind of comforting that we can disagree (a little) again as we have done in the past! :-)

Thomas system sounds great and he knows best what he likes to listen to.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by lejonklou » 2019-07-13 01:10

I feel that the song as a whole is better with the damping pad. But it also seems to loose a bit of the dynamics that are present without the pad.

As I've done this comparison live many times, I feel the clips don't quite do it justice. Because in the room, the presentation is a lot more dynamic and without the pad it just gets more chaotic, while with the pad everything is kept in check and balance. And the consensus from others in the room has always been 100% in favor of the pad in place.

Worth noting is that with the latest incarnation of the Harmoni rack, the washer in between the thick and the thick shelf has been changed. And as a result, you no longer need the damping pad. And to make it even better, you can also add another thick shelf (making it thick-thin-thick on the bottom shelf), and you can place a unit on that shelf without loss of performance.

I still haven't tried this latest version of the bottom shelf of the Harmoni rack, but I will soon. It's called Schabrak.

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck » 2019-07-13 09:19

A few points:

It is easy enough to hear that Thomas setup is tuned into the “block on” sound and it sounds great that way. Block off is as you say Fredrik a bit chaotic and I do think it can be heard in the clip.

Todays mantra in the hifi industry is to hear everything all the time and it has been for some time. I personally do not buy into this mantra. I have even listened to Naim people saying it.
I feel that you loose something very important when “making everything obvious to hear”.

A loss of human nature embedded in the music. Every human feeling gets ironed out loosing some of its power to touch our souls. Listening becomes more like observing the music than feeling it.

The most important message to anyone is still to trust their own gut feeling when listening not letting anyone dictate how they should feel (myself included.... :-)).
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Tendaberry » 2019-07-13 10:05

I agree with Tokenbrit: it's clearly better with the block in place. It gets heavy-handed, clumsy and looses the natural swing without it.

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 » 2019-07-13 11:51

These occassional split differences of opinion are always interesting. For me, they highlight how different people can sometimes experience music in different ways.

Whilst I have the same preference as beck, I'm not sure I can 100% relate to his explanation. For me, 'block off' just has better rhythm and I react to it in a more engaged way.

I too can hear the less chaotic impact of 'block on' - it just doesn't do as much for me for some reason.

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck » 2019-07-13 14:40

Charlie1 wrote: ..............and I react to it in a more engaged way.
As I will always tell anyone who ask me: It is not what you think you hear, it is how you react to what you hear. :-)
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by ThomasOK » 2019-07-13 21:13

I think Fredrik hit the nail on the head with his comments. In the room the without pad track sounds more forceful but not pleasantly so. The cymbal hits sometimes shatter and the voice becomes more coarse, all while overshadowing some of the other instruments. I would say that a good analogy would be the sound of a somewhat worn stylus that starts emphasizing the louder sounds through a small amount of breakup - it sounds a bit more dynamic but not as together or informative. It definitely doesn't move me as much, emotionally or physically. To me this comes through on the clips as well, but not as much as it does in the room.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by ThomasOK » 2019-07-13 21:16

beck wrote:
2019-07-13 09:19
A loss of human nature embedded in the music. Every human feeling gets ironed out loosing some of its power to touch our souls. Listening becomes more like observing the music than feeling it.
I would say that this is a very good indictment of the music industry today as well. The "perfection" of massaging all the notes through ProTools, etc. has robbed much (if not most) new music of any real life and joy.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by markiteight » 2019-07-17 01:06

I'm a bit late to the party but it's been a while since I've been close to a computer for any significant period of time.

I listened to Thomas' latest clips before reading the replies and found the conclusions really fascinating. After listening to the first clip twice through it wasn't until the second clip that the head bopping and foot tapping began. The music flows on the second clip in a way that is more engaging and makes it easier to connect with the musicians. I was completely sold on clip 2...until the end. In the 2nd clip the more rounded leading edges of notes and the softer attack drained away some of the life from the music that's there in full force on clip 1. It wasn't until the percussion at the end of the track (which sounded a bit timid and confused compared to clip 1) that I fully understood what Beck meant when he said, "Without the block is the gig I would attend." Clip 1 sounds like the system is doing it's damnedest to fool the listener into believing they're listening to live music (and doing a REALLY good job of it). In clip 2 the system makes no excuses for being a recording and just plays the music to the best of its ability. It sure would be nice if we could inject some of clip 1's life into clip 2's tune, but I get the impression from Thomas and Fredrik's followup comments that that's indeed what's heard in the room with the pad in place.

Thank you for the fascinating and fun clips, Thomas. This makes me reeeeely wish I had the opportunity to hear first hand what these stands can do.

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck » 2019-07-23 15:12

My guilty plessure at the moment made useful.

A comparison between playing using the youtube app and just using the homepage:

Youtube app:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9mi48btqewplz ... 8.mov?dl=0

Homepage:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/nps8js4bcv133 ... 2.mov?dl=0

Only in 360p.

I find this very interesting........
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by tokenbrit » 2019-07-24 15:38

Do we know that this is the same file via each?
Google (compression?) does not do the song any favours...

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck » 2019-07-24 18:06

tokenbrit wrote:
2019-07-24 15:38
Do we know that this is the same file via each?
Sorry, I do not know. Not really being into digital this is how I use the internet catching up with the latest and finding rare recorded music on youtube.
Ipad via headphone socket into system using cheap minijack/phono cable.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by David Neel » 2019-07-24 23:37

This is the result of my ripping exercise: the only difference between this pair of clips is the ripping software. One is iTunes, the other is JRiver, both using ALAC. The LSNAS is optimised back to being a server, the files come from different directories on the same SSD.

Track 1:
A: https://www.dropbox.com/s/pt2k64wsjb0zg ... 9.mp4?dl=0
B: https://www.dropbox.com/s/afveb89raw2no ... 2.mp4?dl=0

Track 2:
A: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ep8bx2i2kpfvd ... 7.mp4?dl=0
B: https://www.dropbox.com/s/r6mfykbk6aoua ... 8.mp4?dl=0

What do you all think?
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Ron The Mon » 2019-07-25 01:06

David,
Did you pull the old switch-a-roo?

On Track 1, B is better. On track 2, A is better.

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by tokenbrit » 2019-07-25 03:50

I think I prefer A in both, not based on any knowledge of how they should sound, because I don't have any, but solely on comparison of the clips - I just felt more comfortable; more enjoyment; more inclination to listen to the As than the B's... That's not to say that the B's were bad, just that they were a surprisingly different presentation: more overtly expressive from the musician, but at the expense of my connection with the music and, therefore, less appealing to me... I can understand Ron picking an A and a B as it may depend on relating to the presentation of the particular piece that appeals differently to each of us depending on how we personally interpret the piece. (assuming you didn't switch up or mix the order)

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by lejonklou » 2019-07-25 06:51

Ron The Mon wrote:
2019-07-25 01:06
On Track 1, B is better. On track 2, A is better.
I feel the same, although I for some reason found track 2 (where I had a clear preference for A) much easier to compare than track 1 (where I went back and forth repeatedly).

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck » 2019-07-25 09:21

B for me both times.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by David Neel » 2019-07-25 10:00

No switcheroo.... but here's a tie-breaker for those who are undecided.

Track 3:
A: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ncv3c5as58aa5 ... 5.mp4?dl=0
B: https://www.dropbox.com/s/lqkonl21zianl ... 2.mp4?dl=0
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Tendaberry » 2019-07-25 11:30

I think I would go with B (based on the third track), there you're upfront at the stage. On A you're further back and it's not so intimate.

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by matthias » 2019-07-25 12:01

3B for me.

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by lejonklou » 2019-07-25 12:53

Tendaberry wrote:
2019-07-25 11:30
I think I would go with B (based on the third track), there you're upfront at the stage. On A you're further back and it's not so intimate.
I feel the same, but I'm not 100% convinced that everything's better with B. There's something a little rushed and detail-oriented about it.

A on the other hand needs a cup of coffee.

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by tokenbrit » 2019-07-25 13:57

lejonklou wrote:
2019-07-25 12:53
Tendaberry wrote:
2019-07-25 11:30
I think I would go with B (based on the third track), there you're upfront at the stage. On A you're further back and it's not so intimate.
I feel the same, but I'm not 100% convinced that everything's better with B. There's something a little rushed and detail-oriented about it.

A on the other hand needs a cup of coffee.
Yes :) Detail oriented is the problem I had with 2B, and it's the same with 3B ... A little too 'front row' for me, but I know what you mean about 3A.

I'd be interested in hearing this 'live', in room, because it's not clear cut, for me, via the clips as I feel we're missing something with the oversimplification of 'simple' songs.

As it is, A or B would depend on how I feel on the listening session as to whether I wanted intimate physically, up close with B, or intimate emotionally, relaxed with A.

How do our comments match up with in room? Is the result clearer there?

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