Playground for practical listening exercises

[tpetsch]

Clip one for me Charlie.

[Spannko]

Clip 1 for me too, by a very substantial margin! For me, clip 2 = McDonald’s Filet o Fish. Clip 1 = lobster with caviar and a candle on top!

[lejonklou]

I prefer clip 1

[Charlie1]

Clip 1 is a 2016 Linn Majik Integrated and clip 2 is the Giella 1.0 with LK140.

I really like both, although they are a little different. I find the Giella/LK140 more compelling (Majik seems a little boring by comparison), but I slightly prefer the Majik in terms of timing. The Majik also seems to offer slightly better synergy / balance with these old Linn speakers.

I also compared the Majik phono to the Slipsik 8 but there was no contest so I didn't bother with clips. I thought it might be closer cos I used to really like the MC card in my Majik Kontrol.

Lego preferred 2 (blind) via WhatsApp.

[lejonklou]

Interesting Charlie! My impression of what was missing in Clip 2 makes sense now that I know it’s an original Giella with LK140.

If that Giella is ever upgraded to 1.2, I’d love to compare the same units again. Blind of course.

[Charlie1]

I will probably get it upgraded so will do!

[Tendaberry]

For those of you, who haven't torqued their Klimax Radikals yet, here's what you can expect:
A: https://www.dropbox.com/s/l4jm5g8hlzmlc ... 2.mov?dl=0

B: https://www.dropbox.com/s/7454iy2nhocfy ... 7.mov?dl=0

I couldn't torque the XLR's on the back, however, due to a missing tool. And I also changed the LED from bright to dim.

[tpetsch]

Well, I'm not sure which one is which but I'm digg'n "A".

[Hermann]

It was a long time ago when I torqued the KRadikal/2. While A sounds balanced and relaxed, B is rather the opposite. I prefer A.

[Whatsmynaim]

I prefer "A". It got more joy and bounce to it.

[beck]

I prefer "A". It got more joy and bounce to it.

+1

[Tendaberry]

For those of you, who haven't torqued their Klimax Radikals yet, here's what you can expect:
A: https://www.dropbox.com/s/l4jm5g8hlzmlc ... 2.mov?dl=0

B: https://www.dropbox.com/s/7454iy2nhocfy ... 7.mov?dl=0

I couldn't torque the XLR's on the back, however, due to a missing tool. And I also changed the LED from bright to dim.

I must say, I'm a little baffled here. All of you prefer the factory settings, whereas I clearly prefer the new torques in the room (and in the videos). Maybe the Radikal needs to settle a while after being torqued?

[beck]

I completely understand your feelings Tendaberry. I was in the same situation with my Sondek on top of my cd player.
But listening to this forum has been a wise move on my part. :-)

[Hermann]

I wonder about that too. Remember the difference when I had my KRad torqued and later the KRad2. I think the difference was serious and immediately audible. Maybe check the torques again?

[lejonklou]

I was torn between the two clips and lack of time made me abstain from voting.

I’m curios what torques you were using, Tendaberry.

[Charlie1]

My immediate reaction was that A is easier to follow with better timing. However, once the singing starts, B seems more tuneful, interesting and engaging. So I like both for different reasons.

[Tendaberry]

I was torn between the two clips and lack of time made me abstain from voting.

I’m curios what torques you were using, Tendaberry.

I used the ones I got from ThomasOK, so they will be correct. Or my Sturtevant Richmont is way off calibration :-(

[Hermann]

A calibration cost 62 € without VAT 3 years ago. Today certainly more expensive. Maybe that is an option. Alternatively, I could send you mine to check the values.

https://kalibrierlabor.de/

[lejonklou]

Unless you bought your SR tool second hand, the calibration is rarely further off than a few steps. But those steps can of course be crucial.

I would check by ear one step at a time, beginning with the low torque holding the pcb. If you’re sensitive to immediate changes, which I believe you are, it’s enough to change only one screw. Loosen that, try two steps below Thomas’s recommendation and listen. Increase one step on the tool, tighten the screw and let it click a couple of times (there’s variation between each click, so by doing 4-5 of them, you end up on the highest). And then continue until it gets worse. The previous one was the best.

You now have a deviation from Thomas’s tool in that specific range. This means that for torques that are twice as high, this particular deviation is no longer valid. You will need to listen to a fastener in that range as well to see what the deviation is from Thomas’s values.

The lower torques don’t settle much, but the higher ones sometimes do. If there’s a high torque, say around 1 Nm, on a circuit board, that will compress over a day or two, so it will settle and the best value can be difficult to find right away. The same might be true for torques into chassis that are several Nm.

[Tendaberry]

Thanks very much for your kind advice :-)

[tpetsch]

My immediate reaction was that A is easier to follow with better timing. However, once the singing starts, B seems more tuneful, interesting and engaging. So I like both for different reasons.

Interesting you think that way Charlie and I think you may be overthinking it?. For me "A" was on it musically with great musician interplay that was all easy to understand/follow and enjoy being overall more tuneful. And simply stated "B" was a haphazard note puzzle that my brain struggled to string together/make sense of by comparison & a total non-starter for me until that's fixed as that's the fundamental foundation of any musical performance, and I personally found Zero engagement or tune in "B" because of it.

..Also we all need to remember, in the real world -after we've set our system up for the most part- we don't go back and forth replay and replay again the same track analyzing & your probably right that we can always find some aspect that we like in any track. But in the real world we plop the record down and listen one time, one pass and onto the next one.

[ThomasOK]

Unless you bought your SR tool second hand, the calibration is rarely further off than a few steps. But those steps can of course be crucial.

I would check by ear one step at a time, beginning with the low torque holding the pcb. If you’re sensitive to immediate changes, which I believe you are, it’s enough to change only one screw. Loosen that, try two steps below Thomas’s recommendation and listen. Increase one step on the tool, tighten the screw and let it click a couple of times (there’s variation between each click, so by doing 4-5 of them, you end up on the highest). And then continue until it gets worse. The previous one was the best.

You now have a deviation from Thomas’s tool in that specific range. This means that for torques that are twice as high, this particular deviation is no longer valid. You will need to listen to a fastener in that range as well to see what the deviation is from Thomas’s values.

The lower torques don’t settle much, but the higher ones sometimes do. If there’s a high torque, say around 1 Nm, on a circuit board, that will compress over a day or two, so it will settle and the best value can be difficult to find right away. The same might be true for torques into chassis that are several Nm.

Fredrik's advice is spot on. I always recommend people check at least one and two notches above and below any torque recommendations I make to verify what is best with their driver. If two notches above or below sounds better than the recommended torque then try 3 notches and go on until it gets worse, then go back. If two above or below is not as good then try one. Doing this will allow you to be sure you have it right. Being off just a little can be as bad as being off a lot.

[tpetsch]

Unless you bought your SR tool second hand, the calibration is rarely further off than a few steps. But those steps can of course be crucial.

I would check by ear one step at a time, beginning with the low torque holding the pcb. If you’re sensitive to immediate changes, which I believe you are, it’s enough to change only one screw. Loosen that, try two steps below Thomas’s recommendation and listen. Increase one step on the tool, tighten the screw and let it click a couple of times (there’s variation between each click, so by doing 4-5 of them, you end up on the highest). And then continue until it gets worse. The previous one was the best.

You now have a deviation from Thomas’s tool in that specific range. This means that for torques that are twice as high, this particular deviation is no longer valid. You will need to listen to a fastener in that range as well to see what the deviation is from Thomas’s values.

The lower torques don’t settle much, but the higher ones sometimes do. If there’s a high torque, say around 1 Nm, on a circuit board, that will compress over a day or two, so it will settle and the best value can be difficult to find right away. The same might be true for torques into chassis that are several Nm.

Fredrik's advice is spot on. I always recommend people check at least one and two notches above and below any torque recommendations I make to verify what is best with their driver. If two notches above or below sounds better than the recommended torque then try 3 notches and go on until it gets worse, then go back. If two above or below is not as good then try one. Doing this will allow you to be sure you have it right. Being off just a little can be as bad as being off a lot.

And I'm curious, what about the effects of temperature and humidity once one tweaks the torque juuust right? Here in NY Temp & humidity can swing wildly season to season & wooden plinths can actually swell & dry out depending.

[lejonklou]

Temperature and humidity has a strong effect on the torque of fasteners that are clamping wood. Like the front and rear middle bolt that holds the top plate down on an LP12. I have several customers who fine tune that torque at least twice a year. Once when it’s cold and dry outside and once when it’s humid summer.

Fasteners that are holding metal and glass fiber are rarely affected by temperature and humidity, unless things get really warm.

When I first tried clamping the output transistors in my power amps between two pieces of copper, I found that the cold torque wasn’t right for when the amp got warmer. It sounded more and more strangled as the amp heated up. When I retuned the torque while hot, it sounded great then, but rather dull after having been switched off and cooled down. The solution became to use a spring that controlled the torque.

[Charlie1]

Interesting you think that way Charlie and I think you may be overthinking it?. For me "A" was on it musically with great musician interplay that was all easy to understand/follow and enjoy being overall more tuneful. And simply stated "B" was a haphazard note puzzle that my brain struggled to string together/make sense of by comparison & a total non-starter for me until that's fixed as that's the fundamental foundation of any musical performance, and I personally found Zero engagement or tune in "B" because of it.

..Also we all need to remember, in the real world -after we've set our system up for the most part- we don't go back and forth replay and replay again the same track analyzing & your probably right that we can always find some aspect that we like in any track. But in the real world we plop the record down and listen one time, one pass and onto the next one.

That's just the way I hear it tpetsch. Taken many years to realise this sort of thing is not a one-off or irregular scenario for me, but I fully appreciate you (and many/most others) will experience the music differently.

I like the words "note puzzle' - not heard that description before.