Karousel

[u252agz]

Yes

Great analysis - I wish I had the ability do this level of forensic dissection on forum clips.

My assessments amount to a binary comparison of musicality and engagement.

[Charlie1]

When the key shifts up at 0:22, it's difficult to feel it. On the Valhalla/Ittok/K9, the key shift can be felt, and also when it shifts back down. Clearly more enjoyable and more Dylan to me on the Valhalla/Ittok/K9.

I wasn't conscious of this before but I listened again and hear it the same way. Interesting and thanks for sharing.

[Charlie1]

Looking forward to clips with even more run in time on the new Majik LP12, although I wouldn't bet a lot of money on the scales tipping in favour of it.

Yeah, I didn't listen much last week (been too hot to work in the garage) so listening again today (350+ hours). The fundamentals are what they are, so that's that I think - I can't see a point in posting more clips and I've lost the enthusiasm to bother. It's just not my cup of tea so back to plan A and run a '91 spec deck. I can't think badly of it cos I know it suits most many folks here.

[Spannko]

Sorry it didn’t work out for you charlie1.

What are your options for the deck now?

[Tony Tune-age]

Good afternoon Charlie,

I'm late getting to this these audio clips. And one of the reasons is because on my computer, it's not always easy to hear differences. However, with your audio clips I was able to hear some differences (although they did seem to change too). But overall, the Valhalla and Ittok deck came across as being better sounding. Needless to say it would be easier for me to know for sure, simply by listening to each deck in person. And obviously that can't happen...

Good luck

I said I'd do clips vs the Valhalla deck for a forum friend so might as well share here. I will do a final batch at 300 hours which is about 2 weeks continuous running so should be enough :)

These are 200+ hours and include a mid-70s all-analogue track, a late 80s digitally mixed album and a release from last year (presumably digitally recorded and mixed).

Majik LP12
1. https://www.dropbox.com/s/kixj5by22np1n ... 4.MOV?dl=0
2. https://www.dropbox.com/s/77agy2zt96by6 ... 5.MOV?dl=0
3. https://www.dropbox.com/s/5b816v31nxldr ... 6.MOV?dl=0

Valhalla/Ittok/K9
1. https://www.dropbox.com/s/q7uy6j1rp5hbj ... 7.MOV?dl=0
2. https://www.dropbox.com/s/5yfyk83j68sco ... 8.MOV?dl=0
3. https://www.dropbox.com/s/nwqbhxv8e7546 ... 9.MOV?dl=0

[Charlie1]

I'm late getting to this these audio clips. And one of the reasons is because on my computer, it's not always easy to hear differences. However, with your audio clips I was able to hear some differences (although they did seem to change too). But overall, the Valhalla and Ittok deck came across as being better sounding. Needless to say it would be easier for me to know for sure, simply by listening to each deck in person. And obviously that can't happen...

You're welcome anytime Tony :D

Sorry it didn’t work out for you charlie1.

What are your options for the deck now?

My serviced Lingo 1 just off having the mains filter removed at the moment - i.e. for use with Naim amps.

Aiming to get an Ekos 2 at some point but there's no hurry. And I'd like to compare the Adikt to a VM95E as well.

The final step will be to try a Geddon but I've not even got that yet.

[lejonklou]

Just heard that Linn have lowered the recommended torque for Karousel-to-Keel, from 4 to 3.5 Nm? Not sure I got that right.

I recently heard from a retailer - apparently aware of my struggle to appreciate Karousel - who wrote that 4 Nm was way too high and that it was more musical with less.

My first thought is that there are not a lot of folks who are willing to actually make this evaluation properly. It's a lot of hassle and requires a certain amount of obsession.
I have trust in Thomas O'Keefe (after all he pioneered the use of a precision torque tool on the LP12), so I'd like to know how low he started when tuning the Karousel. I'm hoping he gets back to us on this as soon as he's back from his retreat.

[ThomasOK]

I just got back in and am still trying to get caught up on the backlog at the store. No time to listen to clips quite yet but thought I should at least answer Fredrik's question. I started at 3.8Nm +1 notch, my torque for the Cirkus to Keel setting, and then tried 4.0 which I thought was better. I went up and down around the 4.0 setting and settled on 4.0 -2 notches for the top nut (the bottom nut is much lower at 2.4Nm +4 if I remember correctly, I left my notes at home). I didn't try lower than 3.8 so it is certainly possible that a lower torque might be better. I have likened the ideal torque to a mountain peak with the quality falling quickly on either side. But there can be more than one peak. My first Cirkus bearing to Cirkus subchassis setting was revised up after I confirmed Paolo's finding that it was better a bit higher.

I would certainly be interested to know what that retailer feels is the optimum torque so I can experiment further. It is not the easiest torque to test as I have set the inner platter/spindle in such a way as to not lose any oil and then after changing the torque the platters have to be realigned. But I have the hang of it and am always interested in improving the musicality of the turntable/system.

[Lego]

Just heard that Linn have lowered the recommended torque for Karousel-to-Keel, from 4 to 3.5 Nm? Not sure I got that right.

I recently heard from a retailer - apparently aware of my struggle to appreciate Karousel - who wrote that 4 Nm was way too high and that it was more musical with less.

My first thought is that there are not a lot of folks who are willing to actually make this evaluation properly. It's a lot of hassle and requires a certain amount of obsession.
I have trust in Thomas O'Keefe (after all he pioneered the use of a precision torque tool on the LP12), so I'd like to know how low he started when tuning the Karousel. I'm hoping he gets back to us on this as soon as he's back from his retreat.

Why don't a bunch of dealers line up a few Lp12s and listen at different torques ..A kind of Torque face off :0)

[ThomasOK]

Just heard that Linn have lowered the recommended torque for Karousel-to-Keel, from 4 to 3.5 Nm? Not sure I got that right.

I recently heard from a retailer - apparently aware of my struggle to appreciate Karousel - who wrote that 4 Nm was way too high and that it was more musical with less.

My first thought is that there are not a lot of folks who are willing to actually make this evaluation properly. It's a lot of hassle and requires a certain amount of obsession.
I have trust in Thomas O'Keefe (after all he pioneered the use of a precision torque tool on the LP12), so I'd like to know how low he started when tuning the Karousel. I'm hoping he gets back to us on this as soon as he's back from his retreat.

Why don't a bunch of dealers line up a few Lp12s and listen at different torques ..A kind of Torque face off :0)

Just in case you were at all being serious. The difficulty with that is that each LP12 will be a little different. As perfection doesn't exist on this plane of existence, each Kandid, each Radikal, certainly each plinth and even each Keel will sound a little (or sometimes a fair bit) different. So using multiple LP12s to evaluate torque is unlikely to be very helpful.

[Lego]

Just heard that Linn have lowered the recommended torque for Karousel-to-Keel, from 4 to 3.5 Nm? Not sure I got that right.

I recently heard from a retailer - apparently aware of my struggle to appreciate Karousel - who wrote that 4 Nm was way too high and that it was more musical with less.

My first thought is that there are not a lot of folks who are willing to actually make this evaluation properly. It's a lot of hassle and requires a certain amount of obsession.
I have trust in Thomas O'Keefe (after all he pioneered the use of a precision torque tool on the LP12), so I'd like to know how low he started when tuning the Karousel. I'm hoping he gets back to us on this as soon as he's back from his retreat.

Why don't a bunch of dealers line up a few Lp12s and listen at different torques ..A kind of Torque face off :0)

Just in case you were at all being serious. The difficulty with that is that each LP12 will be a little different. As perfection doesn't exist on this plane of existence, each Kandid, each Radikal, certainly each plinth and even each Keel will sound a little (or sometimes a fair bit) different. So using multiple LP12s to evaluate torque is unlikely to be very helpful.

Going by that theory a recommended torque is a nonsense then.

[Spannko]

The difficulty with that is that each LP12 will be a little different. As perfection doesn't exist on this plane of existence, each Kandid, each Radikal, certainly each plinth and even each Keel will sound a little (or sometimes a fair bit) different. So using multiple LP12s to evaluate torque is unlikely to be very helpful.

In the U.K., we’d say “You’ve just done a Ratner” 🤪🤪🤪

[Lego]

The difficulty with that is that each LP12 will be a little different. As perfection doesn't exist on this plane of existence, each Kandid, each Radikal, certainly each plinth and even each Keel will sound a little (or sometimes a fair bit) different. So using multiple LP12s to evaluate torque is unlikely to be very helpful.

In the U.K., we’d say “You’ve just done a Ratner” 🤪🤪🤪

Too much meditation perhaps

[Charlie1]

Decided to make a comparison after all as I'm moving the Valhalla deck back to its home in the house.

Just worked out the Karousel has been running almost 500 hours now. About 50 hours on the Adikt.

Valhalla LP12: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ipdnwd8janhed ... 1.MOV?dl=0
Majik LP12: https://www.dropbox.com/s/5h29skprrpotg ... 2.MOV?dl=0

I do like Stevie's drumming at the beginning - very simple but the man's got rhythm - duh, who would have figured!

Record is a bit warped but seems to play ok.

[V.A.MKD]

Decided to make a comparison after all as I'm moving the Valhalla deck back to its home in the house.

Just worked out the Karousel has been running almost 500 hours now. About 50 hours on the Adikt.

Valhalla LP12: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ipdnwd8janhed ... 1.MOV?dl=0
Majik LP12: https://www.dropbox.com/s/5h29skprrpotg ... 2.MOV?dl=0

I do like Stevie's drumming at the beginning - very simple but the man's got rhythm - duh, who would have figured!

Record is a bit warped but seems to play ok.

Totally different picture than before ... 500 / 50 + hours is with big improvement ...
Maybe I'm wrong, maybe in room is different, but please think once again ...
The more clips that are posted the more I'm convinced (not that I was not before) that Karousel is right decision ...
But that's me ... the most important is you and what make you happy ... :-)))

[beck]

A very fine series of clips you have posted here Charlie1. Thank you.

Easy to hear how the Majik has evolved during the first period. Only you can decide if it is enough.

[Discodave]

Hi Charlie

I notice in the clips you leave the dust cover on.
I have always found replay much better with it off. Indeed my dealer said it acted like a sail for vibrations lol.
Is it the view of the board that the cover is best left on?

[Discodave]

Ps loving the set up by the way!

[Charlie1]

I notice in the clips you leave the dust cover on.
I have always found replay much better with it off. Indeed my dealer said it acted like a sail for vibrations lol.
Is it the view of the board that the cover is best left on?

I would say at least 95% of people remove it. I think it sounds clearer removed but I slightly prefer the music with it on.

However, we live next to crop fields and it does get quite dusty in the house, especially during Summer, so that's the main reason I leave it on. Either that, or we're just very dusty people :D

[Charlie1]

Totally different picture than before ... 500 / 50 + hours is with big improvement ...
Maybe I'm wrong, maybe in room is different, but please think once again ...
The more clips that are posted the more I'm convinced (not that I was not before) that Karousel is right decision ...
But that's me ... the most important is you and what make you happy ... :-)))

Tbh, I think it makes sense that you prefer the Karousel more and more if that's what you prefer anyway.

For me, the Valhalla has better rhythm and as soon as the funky Clavinet starts, the Karousel deck just doesn't work for me.

Also, when the second (or is it 3rd) Clavinet overdub comes in (after about 23sec on Valhalla clip), playing different chords, it makes more sense and I can better discern what both instruments are playing as they are kind of tangled together (in a good way)

[Discodave]

Gotcha Charlie, as we know/have discovered beauty is in the ear of the beholder :)

[Tony Tune-age]

Gotcha Charlie, as we know/have discovered beauty is in the ear of the beholder :)

Agreed...

[FairPlayMotty]

I do like Stevie's drumming at the beginning - very simple but the man's got rhythm - duh, who would have figured!

Record is a bit warped but seems to play ok.

Stevie's a genius!

The tonearm did its job beautifully. Great clips. Stevie on here :)

[ThomasOK]

I listened to the black turntable to the end twice trying to figure out how you got Stevie in the room. The afromosia never got past the middle.

[PaulC]

The Karousel deck sounded more cohesive to me. It's a point when I stop paying attention to the parts and just experience the whole. I didn't have that experience with the Valhalla deck.

I've been thinking though that something is not strictly right with our use of recordings of audio playback as a means to determining which component is better than another in a HiFi system. Here's my reasoning, and feel free to smash it apart, because I am not completely sure of my logic:

I listened to your uploads, both being digitally streamed recordings of audio playback of a Stevie Wonder track on your HiFi. For this 'listening test' I listened through 'speaker A' on 'computer B' using 'browser C'. After listening to your uploads I then opened Tidal in browser C and listened through speaker A on computer B to the audio playback of the same track (I am assuming it is the same recording of that track). Guess what? Your recordings were more enjoyable to listen to! Now, in the context of using a comparison to determine which HiFi component is better than another, this outcome is highly problematic. This is because if we are attempting to determine which of your recordings gives the most faithful playback (which I am assuming is what we are trying to ascertain) then surely listening to the actual track through Speaker A on computer B using browser C ought to give a more faithful reproduction of that track than listening to a recording of the audio playback of that track through Speaker A on computer B using browser C? This because the recording of the audio playback of that track has added an extra step to the audio reproduction. If the recordings of the audio playback of that track are more enjoyable to listen to, one can therefore only conclude that it is not because the music is being more faithfully reproduced, but rather, because the recordings have added artefacts that make the audio sound more enjoyable to us. In other words, what is being experienced as 'better' cannot have anything to do with faithful reproduction of the recorded track.

Perhaps my logic is flawed. Enthusiasts on the forum, please let me know what you think.