Karousel

[Tamblers]

I was quite surprised at the difference in colour of the new inner platter. Very different than the outer platter or the one it replaced. Difference in process or material? Perhaps a little bit of both?

[Ben Webster]

Karousel needs some days to run in. The first hours I noticed that there are more information, lower noice floor and all the other HiFi-Arguments. But I was not sure if the Karousel offers more musicality. The instruments stand alone and I was not sure if all musicians play together (they did but in a distance).

After several days it‘s no question anymore: Karousel is much much. Better in every category. Music makes more sense, has a better flow and makes more fun.

[Ianw]

Karousel needs some days to run in. The first hours I noticed that there are more information, lower noice floor and all the other HiFi-Arguments. But I was not sure if the Karousel offers more musicality. The instruments stand alone and I was not sure if all musicians play together (they did but in a distance).

After several days it‘s no question anymore: Karousel is much much. Better in every category. Music makes more sense, has a better flow and makes more fun.

Relieved to hear that, was a bit concerned about comments on more hifi but less music.

[David Neel]

Relieved to hear that, was a bit concerned about comments on more hifi but less music.

From my perspective there has been substantially more music from the outset. The lower noise threshold/better decay (as mentioned earlier) gives additional clues and nuance to the music - and reduces interpretive strain on the listener. Particularly on piano and orchestral music I get a better feeling of realism, which provides more enjoyment. I don't recognise the fragmentation/cracks in the windscreen effect at all, rather the opposite.

One side effect is that higher volume levels feel natural - so you could always ask my neighbours for a second opinion :)

[Charlie1]

New Majik LP12...
1. 10 hours: https://www.dropbox.com/s/fu4eorw3dkzka ... 5.MOV?dl=0
2. 150 hours: https://www.dropbox.com/s/6eu4tf73bp74y ... 9.MOV?dl=0

Majik (at 150 hours) vs Pre-Cirkus/Radika/Ekos SE/Krystal deck - not taken on the same day so not ideal. It's a different recording of the Majik in an attempt to better match the volume:
1. Pre-Cirkus: https://www.dropbox.com/s/7vdolbdbti1m0 ... 0.MOV?dl=0
2. Majik: https://www.dropbox.com/s/39juxf88htyc7 ... 7.MOV?dl=0

I'll post another clip vs Valhalla/Ittok/K9 deck at some point - maybe after 200 hours.

[Ianw]

Well, I carried out an A v B dem at Loud and Clear Glasgow.

Identical Akurate spec decks except Akito arm and Krystal changed to AO PU7 and DV cart on both. 3 month old Cirkus on one and 3 month Karousel on the other, both with similar hours on them. Super decks by the way.

First observation is the Cirkus deck is fabulous in every way.
The Karousel is more revealing which is good. To me it didn’t add any more music to the sound, rather it revealed more of what is there.

Karousel ordered.

I wouldn’t feel short changed running a Cirkus as it’s a fab bearing.

[Lego]

Initial listening, the bass appears to be more nimble and less laborious going from 10 hrs to 150hrs

[Lego]

Well, I carried out an A v B dem at Loud and Clear Glasgow.

Identical Akurate spec decks except Akito arm and Krystal changed to AO PU7 and DV cart on both. 3 month old Cirkus on one and 3 month Karousel on the other, both with similar hours on them. Super decks by the way.

First observation is the Cirkus deck is fabulous in every way.
The Karousel is more revealing which is good. To me it didn’t add any more music to the sound, rather it revealed more of what is there.

Karousel ordered.

I wouldn’t feel short changed running a Cirkus as it’s a fab bearing.

What are comparing the Cirkus bearing to

[Ianw]

Well, I carried out an A v B dem at Loud and Clear Glasgow.

Identical Akurate spec decks except Akito arm and Krystal changed to AO PU7 and DV cart on both. 3 month old Cirkus on one and 3 month Karousel on the other, both with similar hours on them. Super decks by the way.

First observation is the Cirkus deck is fabulous in every way.
The Karousel is more revealing which is good. To me it didn’t add any more music to the sound, rather it revealed more of what is there.

Karousel ordered.

I wouldn’t feel short changed running a Cirkus as it’s a fab bearing.

What are comparing the Cirkus bearing to

Cirkus versus Karousel on otherwise identical decks

[David Neel]

Identical Akurate spec decks except Akito arm and Krystal changed to AO PU7 and DV cart on both.

Interesting... were you able to form any opinions on the arm and cartridge? From my experience, I'd expect them to have sounded very different from the Linn items.

[PaulC]

Going from 10 hours to 150 hours, for me I experience a coherency between the trumpet and vocals that I don't experience in the 10 hours recording. Moving on to the 'pre-cirkus/....' recording I experience the trumpet as taking a much greater role in the songs overall rhythm as compared to the Majik recording in which the bass dominates. The 'pre-cirkus/...' recording is by far the most engaging in my view.

[lejonklou]

+1 on PaulC's comment

[Charlie1]

I hear the same things as you in the room Paul. It's only recently that the music has started to communicate to me in any significant way. I think there is a degree of getting used to it too - i.e. tracks that I've been using to monitor progress every 24 or 48 hours of running time sound good now. It's only when I play something new to the Majik deck or connect one of the other decks that I'm once again struck by its shortcomings, chiefly rhythm and timing between the musicians.

To my ears, the Karousel deck was pretty soulless at the beginning and the bass, in particular, was laboured and dreary, so it has improved. There have been a small number of tracks that I may prefer on the Majik deck now (didn't do a direct comparison), but they tended to be quite sparsely recorded with a simple beat. I suspect the shortcomings run too deep for it to be a keeper but we'll see.

Being a fan of the pre-Cirkus bearing, I never expected to prefer the Karousel. Plan A was to build a '91 spec deck but it cost the same to buy a new Majik deck and sell the bits I don't need, so I figured why not buy my first new deck in 30 years and also live for the Karousel for a while. I still hope it does win through cos the HiFi improvements are amazing and it makes the Adikt sound like a high-end MC.

[Spannko]

I hear the same things as you in the room Paul. It's only recently that the music has started to communicate to me in any significant way. I think there is a degree of getting used to it too - i.e. tracks that I've been using to monitor progress every 24 or 48 hours of running time sound good now. It's only when I play something new to the Majik deck or connect one of the other decks that I'm once again struck by its shortcomings, chiefly rhythm and timing between the musicians. To my ears, the Karousel deck was pretty soulless at the beginning and the bass, in particular, was laboured and dreary, so it has improved. There have been a small number of tracks that I may prefer on the Majik deck now (didn't do a direct comparison), but they tended to be quite sparsely recorded with a simple beat. I suspect the shortcomings run too deep for it to be a keeper but we'll see. I hope it does win through cos the HiFi improvements are amazing and it makes the Adikt sound like a high-end MC.

I totally agree with your summary of its performance to date charlie1. Let’s hope it improves further, because then it would be one hell of an upgrade!

PS. Getting off the fence feels so much more comfortable!

[PaulC]

Hi Charlie1. I must admit that it's a surprise to hear these differences. I owned an LP12 during the 90's with a cirkus bearing but have never before heard an LP12 with a pre-cirkus bearing before. I've only just recently ordered an ALP12 (with Karousel) after hearing one played as part of an Exakt system. It was a profound emotional experience hearing music being played through it and it was in my mind a whole new level of musical engagement compared with my previous Linn system. Also, my Linn dealer, who is well regarded in Sweden -Anders at Tonläget-, describes the Karousel as a major upgrade. It strikes me as improbable that someone who has developed Harmonihyllan as well as the Klångedang loudspeaker, and who believes in and sells Lejonklou products, is completely on the wrong foot regarding the Karousel. One thought that strikes me is in regard of (what looks like) the IKEA Lack table that you use for your MLP12 in the recordings. I have used Lack tables and found them to be very good. However, I am in no doubt that the coherence, rhythm, and musicality of playback is affected depending upon the rigidity and floor position of the Lack as well as component position on it. Now, the reason I bring this up, and I apologise if this has already been discussed on the forum, but have you thought about the degree to which your Lack table is optimised in relation to your MLP12 (let's just assume for the moment that the MLP12 and pre-cirkusLP12 do not share the same parameters)? Also, do you have the opportunity to make the same comparison on a Harmonihyllan?

[Spannko]

If a dealer really didn’t like the Karousel, I wonder how many would actually tell their customers?

As it happens, I’m listening to Rickie Lee Jones singing Easy Money. How very apt!

[ThomasOK]

New Majik LP12...
1. 10 hours: https://www.dropbox.com/s/fu4eorw3dkzka ... 5.MOV?dl=0
2. 150 hours: https://www.dropbox.com/s/6eu4tf73bp74y ... 9.MOV?dl=0

Majik (at 150 hours) vs Pre-Cirkus/Radika/Ekos SE/Krystal deck - not taken on the same day so not ideal. It's a different recording of the Majik in an attempt to better match the volume:
1. Pre-Cirkus: https://www.dropbox.com/s/7vdolbdbti1m0 ... 0.MOV?dl=0
2. Majik: https://www.dropbox.com/s/39juxf88htyc7 ... 7.MOV?dl=0

I'll post another clip vs Valhalla/Ittok/K9 deck at some point - maybe after 200 hours.

The new Majik LP12 definitely is more musical after 150 hours, pulling the rhythm together and just being more fun. I have a harder time with the pre-Cirkus vs. the 150 hour Majik/Karousel. It seems like each one does some things better and both can move pretty well. The pre-Cirkus sometimes sounds a bit sharp and bright, but the Majik can sound a little dull when you go back and forth. I'm certain that all the other differences between the two decks and the cosmetic changes it brings to the sound make it a bit harder. Overall I think the Majik still moves a little better but not on all parts of the music. I would say that 150 hours is still short of where the Karousel is fully bedded in so it will be interesting to see how you get along with it after some more time.

[ThomasOK]

If a dealer really didn’t like the Karousel, I wonder how many would actually tell their customers?

As it happens, I’m listening to Rickie Lee Jones singing Easy Money. How very apt!

I would. And, if it wasn't already obvious, I'm with Anders.

[PaulC]

Spannko, I understand your thoughts, but I have great trust in my Linn dealers' musical ear, and I believe there are several on this forum who also see him as a person with a strong integrity. The issue is clearly not black and white. I can't deny however that the MLP12 clips are not as musical in my view as the 'pre-cirkus' clip.

[Charlie1]

Hi Charlie1. I must admit that it's a surprise to hear these differences. I owned an LP12 during the 90's with a cirkus bearing but have never before heard an LP12 with a pre-cirkus bearing before. I've only just recently ordered an ALP12 (with Karousel) after hearing one played as part of an Exakt system. It was a profound emotional experience hearing music being played through it and it was in my mind a whole new level of musical engagement compared with my previous Linn system. Also, my Linn dealer, who is well regarded in Sweden -Anders at Tonläget-, describes the Karousel as a major upgrade. It strikes me as improbable that someone who has developed Harmonihyllan as well as the Klångedang loudspeaker, and who believes in and sells Lejonklou products, is completely on the wrong foot regarding the Karousel. One thought that strikes me is in regard of (what looks like) the IKEA Lack table that you use for your MLP12 in the recordings. I have used Lack tables and found them to be very good. However, I am in no doubt that the coherence, rhythm, and musicality of playback is affected depending upon the rigidity and floor position of the Lack as well as component position on it. Now, the reason I bring this up, and I apologise if this has already been discussed on the forum, but have you thought about the degree to which your Lack table is optimised in relation to your MLP12 (let's just assume for the moment that the MLP12 and pre-cirkusLP12 do not share the same parameters)? Also, do you have the opportunity to make the same comparison on a Harmonihyllan?

I prefer the old style feet and Lack to Tramplin. Just another one of my quirky preferences. When I compare MLP12 to Valhalla deck, I'll try to remember to use the same table but personally I think the bearing differences are far more fundamental than the support of base.

I'm not questioning anyone's preferences by thd way. I am confident that my dealer, Tom, Anders and many more simply enjoy their music much more via Karousel. That's all that matters really. Ive long since given up on the idea of a universal 'best'. Sometimes even tunedemmers experience music differently to one another.

[Charlie1]

I would say that 150 hours is still short of where the Karousel is fully bedded in so it will be interesting to see how you get along with it after some more time.

Thanks for the feedback as always. Maybe I will wait until 250 hours before making more clips then.

[Charlie1]

Let’s hope it improves further, because then it would be one hell of an upgrade!

Yes, fingers crossed and glad you're sitting more comfortably now.

[Spannko]

Spannko, I understand your thoughts, but I have great trust in my Linn dealers' musical ear, and I believe there are several on this forum who also see him as a person with a strong integrity. The issue is clearly not black and white. I can't deny however that the MLP12 clips are not as musical in my view as the 'pre-cirkus' clip.

“Actions speak louder than words”, and until we have evidence to the contrary, we have to go with what we hear. At the moment, I’m split 50/50 whether charlie1’s Karousel will improve over time. Hopefully, it will.

[PaulC]

Spannko, 'evidence' is the key word here I think. I think there may be confounding variables at play in the clips we have listened to making it difficult to come to any firm conclusions. Charlie1, I understand your point of view regarding the importance of the bearing as compared to what the deck is sitting on, but my experience of using Lack tables is that they can be a source of significant inconsistency in terms of playback AQ, and most importantly, an inconsistency that can result in, on any given day, a complete loss in a cohesive, rhythmically beguiling sound. This is why I ask if you have the opportunity to make the comparison using a Harmonihyllan. If I understand your last post correctly though you don't use Trampolin, which I understand is not needed when using Lack, but which is needed when using HH. At the end of the day, because of the high possible number of confounding variables, maybe it's not actually possible to make a 'scientific' comparison. Maybe what's required is a leap of faith. For better or for worse my new deck (which hasn't arrived yet) comes with the Karousel, so there's not a lot I can do about it anyway...

[beck]

You should be happy and joyful about getting a new Sondek PaulC.

It is something special.

Then if you at some point do not get the buzz out of listening to it you can return here and discuss what to do.

I hope it will not be the case and that you will enjoy it for years to come. :-)