The death of K400

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Nature
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Re: The death of K400

Post by Nature »

I have some work to do.

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Re: The death of K400

Post by moog_man »

Great pic !

Look forwards to your thoughts once it's connected and run-in
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Re: The death of K400

Post by rowlandhills »

Nature wrote:I have some work to do.

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I'd start by getting a second plug...

Interested to hear your thoughts once all connected up and burned in for a few days.
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Re: The death of K400

Post by Nature »

Done!

Still got some work to do.
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Re: The death of K400

Post by lejonklou »

:D

Send them to me!
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Re: The death of K400

Post by Nature »

Unfortunately, and I mean it, I need them all.
Aktiv systems requires a lot of wiring.
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Re: The death of K400

Post by Nature »

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Have now used the cable for more than two weeks. I am very pleased and think that it is very good. Will never again use the K400. Finally.
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Re: The death of K400

Post by lejonklou »

Interesting, Nature!

Can you share some details around how the comparison was made between K400 and the Silver K200?
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Re: The death of K400

Post by rowlandhills »

That looks like a very neat bit of work there, Nature. Would be interested to see them in situ, between your amps and speakers. Although it does result in a big black cable to your speakers, one advantage of K600 is that it's all together in a single run and doesn't risk looking like spaghetti!

Interested to hear more of your thoughts on the sound and musicality differences between the cables too.

What were you using before? K600 and K400, or hand-split pairs of old "K200"?
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Re: The death of K400

Post by lejonklou »

Nature sent one of his old K400's to me, because another member wanted me to make a 248 cm pair of black K200.

I note that on Nature's old K400, Deltron connectors are used. If this was used in the comparison with the new silver K200 (I am unsure of whether any comparison actually was made, because Nature doesn't say that), it invalidates the result. Because the silver K200 in the photos above are terminated with Knekt bananas and connectors are more important than the cable.

Cheap mains cable with Knekt bananas sounds better than K400 with worse connectors.

Thomas OK tells me he's made a comparison between the old black K200 and the new silver K200. A thorough one, of course. Identical length, connectors, solder wire, temperature and technique.

I think he will post his impressions next week.
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Re: The death of K400

Post by Efraim roots »

lejonklou wrote:Cheap mains cable with Knekt bananas sounds better than K400 with worse connectors.
Really!? Is there no indication that for example Naim bananas suits their naca5 cable, or that Knekt bananas suits Linn cables, seeing the cable more like a whole? Another thing I have been thinking of on this subject is if there is any truth in the claims of matching the connectors material with the sockets material for best result. I think at least a few from Naim claim this, they also have another type of plating on their Ovator bananas only for some reason. This seems a bit strange coming from the institution of Lejonklou Forum but I don't have much experience myself. I must try the Knekts on naca5.
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Re: The death of K400

Post by Music Lover »

lejonklou wrote: Thomas OK tells me he's made a comparison between the old black K200 and the new silver K200. A thorough one, of course. Identical length, connectors, solder wire, temperature and technique.

I think he will post his impressions next week.
I'm sure he told you...so what cable is best?
Then Thomas can write about it later on!
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Re: The death of K400

Post by lejonklou »

Efraim roots wrote:Really!? Is there no indication that for example Naim bananas suits their naca5 cable, or that Knekt bananas suits Linn cables, seeing the cable more like a whole? Another thing I have been thinking of on this subject is if there is any truth in the claims of matching the connectors material with the sockets material for best result. I think at least a few from Naim claim this, they also have another type of plating on their Ovator bananas only for some reason. This seems a bit strange coming from the institution of Lejonklou Forum but I don't have much experience myself. I must try the Knekts on naca5.
This question is always highly interesting! Which details are independently good or bad, and which need to be judged in their proper context, in certain combinations?

I have tried Deltron, Knekt and various other connectors on different cables and Knekt has always been the best, regardless of cable. Tin plated Deltron 550 has been second. The optimal solder, flux and temperature has also never varied with any of the parts involved.

Same thing with the plating. I have tried different platings for both AC mains, speaker connectors and MC cartridge tags and despite the differing conditions, the results have been the same. The contact pressure is however very important and varies between different materials and designs.

I had selected by ear the cheap 1 mm2 AC mains cable that with Knekt outperformed a pair of K400 with gold plated "tube style" banana/BFA plugs. I doubt that any mains cable will be able to do the same trick.
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Re: The death of K400

Post by ThomasOK »

Hello all! There have been a few questions about the new K200 cable so I thought I'd post some first impressions. (I have been out of town for a week on vacation with family celebrating Thanksgiving day. I didn't touch a computer the whole time I was gone, so I am also a bit behind on other forum happenings as well.)

For starters I can only give you a first impression as the cables haven't been fully run in yet. I have them cooking in a system and hope to get back with a more complete report in a week or two. However, I made another pair of 2.48m split K400 the same day I made the new 2.48m silver K200 versions. So I compared both in the store with no break in. As many already know I use the same soldering station Fredrik uses along with Lejonklou soldier and I solder at 677°F - the best sounding temperature. Both sets of cables used Linn Knelt banana plugs and, as mentioned, were made to the length of 2.48m. I don't know if this is the ideal length for the new K200 but it seemed the fairest way to test the cables for now.

Because of equipment placement in the store I used a Majik DSM as it was easy to position between the speakers and I used streaming for the source. I ran it into the big Dynaudio Focus 380 speakers we used for the Sagatun event but in one of the smaller sound rooms. My first surprise was how close the new K200 sounds to the old split K400. Somebody definitely was shooting for the same sound overall. However, there are differences and IMO they favor split K400. The new K200 has that kind of fast, detailed sound many equate to the new Linn house sound. Details like the fingering of guitar strings were more apparent but to me it sounded artificial and out of balance. At the same time the new K200 seemed to remove some of the body of the guitar and bass instruments as well as a bit on the lower end of voices. The split K400 has a more natural and balanced sound with more body and a better sense of movement. You get into the music more. If Linn were forced to replace the K400 and this is as close as they could get it isn't horrible but it certainly isn't as musical as what we are used to - at least based on the fresh cables. The fact that it costs two and a half times as much hurts a bit considering this.

As stated this is only a preliminary test. Once the new K200 are pretty fully burned in I will do another comparison and will use higher end sources and electronics.
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Re: The death of K400

Post by Spannko »

ThomasOK wrote:Hello all! There have been a few questions about the new K200 cable so I thought I'd post some first impressions. (I have been out of town for a week on vacation with family celebrating Thanksgiving day. I didn't touch a computer the whole time I was gone, so I am also a bit behind on other forum happenings as well.)

For starters I can only give you a first impression as the cables haven't been fully run in yet. I have them cooking in a system and hope to get back with a more complete report in a week or two. However, I made another pair of 2.48m split K400 the same day I made the new 2.48m silver K200 versions. So I compared both in the store with no break in. As many already know I use the same soldering station Fredrik uses along with Lejonklou soldier and I solder at 677°F - the best sounding temperature. Both sets of cables used Linn Knelt banana plugs and, as mentioned, were made to the length of 2.48m. I don't know if this is the ideal length for the new K200 but it seemed the fairest way to test the cables for now.

Because of equipment placement in the store I used a Majik DSM as it was easy to position between the speakers and I used streaming for the source. I ran it into the big Dynaudio Focus 380 speakers we used for the Sagatun event but in one of the smaller sound rooms. My first surprise was how close the new K200 sounds to the old split K400. Somebody definitely was shooting for the same sound overall. However, there are differences and IMO they favor split K400. The new K200 has that kind of fast, detailed sound many equate to the new Linn house sound. Details like the fingering of guitar strings were more apparent but to me it sounded artificial and out of balance. At the same time the new K200 seemed to remove some of the body of the guitar and bass instruments as well as a bit on the lower end of voices. The split K400 has a more natural and balanced sound with more body and a better sense of movement. You get into the music more. If Linn were forced to replace the K400 and this is as close as they could get it isn't horrible but it certainly isn't as musical as what we are used to - at least based on the fresh cables. The fact that it costs two and a half times as much hurts a bit considering this.

As stated this is only a preliminary test. Once the new K200 are pretty fully burned in I will do another comparison and will use higher end sources and electronics.
ThomasOK,

Regardless of sound differences, which of the two do you feel is the most tuneful?

Thanks
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Re: The death of K400

Post by tokenbrit »

Spannko wrote: ThomasOK,

Regardless of sound differences, which of the two do you feel is the most tuneful?

Thanks
The way I read it, the first impressions favour the split K400: (reading musical as tuneful)
ThomasOK wrote:You get into the music more [with the split K400] ... [the new K200] certainly isn't as musical...
Interested to see how the results change with different electronics, cable length, and with burn in.
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Re: The death of K400

Post by ThomasOK »

I tend to use terms such as musical and natural interchangeably with tuneful. If it is not in tune it does not portray the piece musically or naturally. So, yes, I found the split K400 more tuneful than the new K200.
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Re: The death of K400

Post by Spannko »

ThomasOK wrote:I tend to use terms such as musical and natural interchangeably with tuneful. If it is not in tune it does not portray the piece musically or naturally. So, yes, I found the split K400 more tuneful than the new K200.
OK, thanks.

Me too, but I thought I'd check, rather than make an assumption.
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Re: The death of K400

Post by ThomasOK »

Here is the promised followup to my initial thoughts on the K200. I had them running in on my home theater system continuously for a few weeks so they should be fully cooked now. I compared them in the store against a pair of split K400 made in the same way but one I made some time ago and have used for various demonstrations so also well burned in. The system consisted of the store's Klimax LP12 running through Sagtun Mono 1.1 preamps and Tundra Mono 2 power amps into a pair of Vandersteen Treo speakers (about $6900 US and a quite good speaker). Power cables were latest style Linn on the Radikal and Lejonklou on the electronics connected to my preferred Cable Pro Relevation 2 power strip fed by a current Linn AC cable.

The same things I heard with the unbroken in cables reported above held true here. The K200 had mellowed a little bit but it still has the same musical signature. It is not as tuneful as the K400 with the emotion in the voice and the textures of instruments lessened making the music harder to follow and less engaging. While the overall balance is close to split K400 it has a more Hi-Fi presentation with a bit more forward and etched quality to the mids and upper mids. Also the bass, while it has filled in a bit, is still less musical and powerful than the K400 on most music.

So overall I find the split K400 more tuneful and enjoy music played through it more. I am glad I have enough of it personally to handle any situation I expect to encounter. I have heard that the reason that the K400 is no longer available is that Linn is no longer able to source it. This is the apparent reason for the arrival of K200. The construction of K200 is quite a bit different than K400 with the same cross section but made up of hundreds of much finer strands. This makes it a bit of a pain to work with as the strands are difficult to all fit in Knelt Bananas. A tip for those working with it is it is easier to get them in the Knekts if you don't try to twist them all together. They are already twisted into groups and it is easiest if you just keep them bunched together and fit them in the banana. They also, obviously, have quite different outer insulation. I have to say that Linn did a good job of making a radically different cable that sounds pretty close to K400, it is just a shame that it is not an actual musical improvement IMO.
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Re: The death of K400

Post by ThomasOK »

rowlandhills wrote: 2015-10-08 07:08 Interesting development.

Not really a surprise, I think it's been on the cards since the death of K600, which meant that 3 way speakers needed a split cable to run aktiv, and the market has certainly shown a willingness to pay a higher price for cables than K400/600.

I'm glad that I have a couple of spare runs of K400 and K600 for own speakers in storage though, at least until I get to hear K200 for myself!

Of course, it does beg the question of how we now refer to our current manually created "K200" (split K400s)...
I was trying to figure out where to put this photo and note and some searching brought me to this post. I now have several dealers who experienced split K400 ask me to make pairs available for them to sell to their customers. I am in the process of acquiring K400/K600 so that I can make them up and added a quality solder fume extractor to my workbench as I didn't feel the need to supplement the decades of solder fumes I have already inhaled. I figured the current way of talking about these cables is somewhat confusing and cumbersome and thought they could use a more straightforward name. Then an idea popped into my head which Fredrik rather liked. I thought I'd see what you all think and feel free to use the alphanumeric designation if you like.

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Re: The death of K400

Post by Sopper »

It’s K400, no matter what name you print on shrinking tube. I’d rather put some effort in making them look a little better: mesh weave helps
But that’s my opinion… no offense
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Re: The death of K400

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I like it.
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Re: The death of K400

Post by markiteight »

I like it too. Makes it clear at one glance that it's the correct length/solder/temp.
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Re: The death of K400

Post by lejonklou »

I like them. And I definitely prefer the raw PVC to a cover in mesh. Mesh feels cheap to me, because all the cable-scam companies out there use it.
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Re: The death of K400

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DelNaja wrote: 2024-03-29 23:11I like it.
+1
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