Hermanns System

Share your journey!

Moderator: Staff

User avatar
El Mero Mero
Active member
Active member
Posts: 107
Joined: 2007-11-04 22:38
Location: Sweden

Re: Hermanns System

Post by El Mero Mero »

That’s a really cool place you have! Has it always been used as living quarters or it converted from something else? Any chance of getting a picture pointing towards the listening area?
Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4830
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Re: Hermanns System

Post by Charlie1 »

Wow, amazing. Thanks for sharing. All those Mana supports make Briks look small.

The Grahams are unusual looking too.
User avatar
El Mero Mero
Active member
Active member
Posts: 107
Joined: 2007-11-04 22:38
Location: Sweden

Re: Hermanns System

Post by El Mero Mero »

Only listened to the "Take Five" clip. I easily preferred the G2 clip. So much more expression, feeling and suspense in it. It made me curious of which the next note would be and how it would be played.
User avatar
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6504
Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: Hermanns System

Post by lejonklou »

One question about the Isobarik vs Graham LS 5/5 comparison:

I assume the stands below Isobarik are designed specifically for them. Were they made by Mana?

I also assume those stands don't fit LS 5/5. So they were placed directly on one of the big Mana tables (perhaps there was something below each corner of the cabinet). Doesn't this give the 5/5 a serious disadvantage in the comparison? I would imagine that the lack of a proper stand seriously limits the performance of the speaker, as that has been the case with all other speakers that I've evaluated, floorstanders included.

Unfortunately I don't have any solution to present. Designing a good sounding speaker stand requires a lot of work!
User avatar
Tendaberry
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 974
Joined: 2010-08-30 16:08
Location: Hamburg

Re: Hermanns System

Post by Tendaberry »

Looking at the pictures, I cannot keep myself from asking, why the Briks are placed so high up? The total height of the stand seems higher than the speaker itself (76 cm). The original stands are around 33 cm, which is supposed to bring the tweeter to the ear level.
Graham also specifies, that the tweeter should be at ear level, thus requiring a stand that's about 49-50 cm. I think they were a good bit higher, when you tested them?
Spannko
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2281
Joined: 2008-01-24 21:46
Location: North East of The Black Country, UK

Re: Hermanns System

Post by Spannko »

I’m wondering if the rule ‘tweeters at ear height’ is as useful as all the other audiophile rules, such as the ‘equilateral triangle’, ‘ 1:15 isosceles triangle’, ‘38% rule’, ‘golden ratio’, etc, etc? My guess, based on my experience of building speakers with bass and treble units placed in all manner of unconventional positions, is that the optimal speaker position is very much influenced by the speaker topology /room interaction and how it relates to the combinations ability to reproduce music.
User avatar
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6504
Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: Hermanns System

Post by lejonklou »

Spannko wrote: 2023-09-01 11:22 I’m wondering if the rule ‘tweeters at ear height’ is as useful as all the other audiophile rules, such as the ‘equilateral triangle’, ‘ 1:15 isosceles triangle’, ‘38% rule’, ‘golden ratio’, etc, etc? My guess, based on my experience of building speakers with bass and treble units placed in all manner of unconventional positions, is that the optimal speaker position is very much influenced by the speaker topology /room interaction and how it relates to the combinations ability to reproduce music.
In my opinion, yes.

Tweeters at ear height is usually motivated in technical terms with the dispersion pattern of the tweeter, with off-axis nearly always being less flat in its frequency response. Moving yourself away from the on-axis position usually doesn't have much of an effect on musicality, though.

In audiophile terms, tweeters at ear height is usually motivated with where the perceived soundstage is most convincing. Although a realistic soundstage can be awarding to experience, it has little to do with musicality.

Much more important to musicality is in my opinion the position of the voice coil of the bass unit relative to the room boundaries.
Spannko
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2281
Joined: 2008-01-24 21:46
Location: North East of The Black Country, UK

Re: Hermanns System

Post by Spannko »

I actually agree with everything you’ve said here Fredrik. However, there’s something we’ve not addressed, and that’s the fact that tweeters are usually fixed in position and putting the tweeter at ear height may not allow the bass unit to be optimally positioned. This is what I was thinking but didn’t explain myself very well.

One aspect of tweeter positioning, when the tweeter is positioned close to a wall, is its orientation relative to the wall. I have a suspicion that the tweeter/loudspeaker is more musical when aligned parallel with the wall, possibly due to a more coherent half sphere radiation pattern. I don’t think this applies to speakers positioned into the room though.
tokenbrit
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2038
Joined: 2012-03-22 19:47
Location: New England

Re: Hermanns System

Post by tokenbrit »

I did wonder about the height of the 5/5s, but saw that the listening position is raised on a dais, and Hermann did admit that “the Grahams weren't optimally set up”… I know I’d be reluctant to mess with the meticulously installed stack of mana stands unless the Grahams showed promise over the ‘briks. They sounded a little disappointing in the comparison clips, which was unexpected, unless the setup & room so strongly favor the Linns.
User avatar
Hermann
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 604
Joined: 2018-05-13 06:52
Location: Ruhrgebiet

Re: Hermanns System

Post by Hermann »

Thanks all for the comments.
matthias wrote: 2023-08-31 17:50
Hermann wrote: 2023-08-31 11:12 After a long time of consideration and a few requests for pictures, I'm now posting it.
Hermann,
I like this old-school Mana set-up, it must sound terrific!
Well yes, as incredible as it seems, it works great.
lejonklou wrote: 2023-08-31 20:29 Fascinating pictures, Hermann!

Can’t say that I understand how eight levels of Mana can bring an improvement when the height above floor becomes increasingly less optimal. Sadly I have never had the pleasure of listening to a system on Mana. Maybe one day!
Thanks Fredrik
In fact, each level improves musicality and that is the concept behind it. Each level is individually adjusted and set to a clean tone. A worthwhile effort even if conversions take time. The disadvantage of such a stack is certainly the sensitivity to mechanical movement, such as that which occurs when plugging and unplugging RCA plugs. DIN doesn't know this problem.
Our door is open for a visit Fredrik, we look forward to seeing.
El Mero Mero wrote: 2023-08-31 21:06 That’s a really cool place you have! Has it always been used as living quarters or it converted from something else? Any chance of getting a picture pointing towards the listening area?
Thanks El Mero Mero
It's a converted factory from 1963. The first picture shows two blue T-beams. These are supports for a crane, which fortunately was preserved.

In terms of listening area, at times the chair gets turned around when I want to fully immerse myself into music. On the podium to the right of the view of the picture is the actual seating area, which is mainly used for listening. For me, listening to the briks in the sweet spot just means not being distracted by anything else. A good 2 meters further back on the sofa it doesn't sound any different. The music can also be enjoyed there.
lejonklou wrote: 2023-08-31 23:59 One question about the Isobarik vs Graham LS 5/5 comparison:

I assume the stands below Isobarik are designed specifically for them. Were they made by Mana?

I also assume those stands don't fit LS 5/5. So they were placed directly on one of the big Mana tables (perhaps there was something below each corner of the cabinet). Doesn't this give the 5/5 a serious disadvantage in the comparison? I would imagine that the lack of a proper stand seriously limits the performance of the speaker, as that has been the case with all other speakers that I've evaluated, floorstanders included.

Unfortunately I don't have any solution to present. Designing a good sounding speaker stand requires a lot of work!
The stands are made specifically for the briks and are also made by Mana.

As I wrote, the Grahams were not positioned optimally and their original stands were, in my opinion, unusable. The Grahams may create more space if the distance to the wall is greater. But I didn't want to get involved in the experiment because the effort was too much. According to the manufacturer, I had placed approx. 2x2cm cork plates under the four corners, which also benefited the speakers.

With the original stand they were about 60cm away from the wall, I wasn't happy if I ignore the first two days of amazement. Once the changed portrayal was internalized, too many questions arose that never came up with the briks.

On the one hand, the height of the speaker doesn't play a musical role IMHO and on the other hand, I already had it 2 levels higher and yet the kick drum was at the bottom between the speakers. I have never noticed a negative effect of placing the briks high (in moderation, of course).
Last edited by Hermann on 2023-09-22 04:31, edited 1 time in total.
Trust your ears
User avatar
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6504
Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: Hermanns System

Post by lejonklou »

Thank you Hermann!

Your system is really inspiring and provides plenty of food for thought!
ive
New member
New member
Posts: 1
Joined: 2022-04-07 21:19

Re: Hermanns System

Post by ive »

matthias
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2089
Joined: 2007-12-25 16:47
Location: Germany

Re: Hermanns System

Post by matthias »

Thanks for sharing :-)
Matt

MBP / Exposure pre + power (both modified) / JBL3677
Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4830
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Re: Hermanns System

Post by Charlie1 »

I like him. Enjoyed that. Tx for sharing.
User avatar
Hermann
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 604
Joined: 2018-05-13 06:52
Location: Ruhrgebiet

Re: Hermanns System

Post by Hermann »

Since the link exists in my thread, I want to contribute something to it. At first I asked the poster to remove the link because I didn't want to be associated with any connections to Mana. Ok, that didn't happen.

His statements are known to me through several personal visits and the use of Mana were raised to dogma in his forum at the time. Many statements are understandable as long as they cover the musical area.

We had a business relationship that abruptly ended in financial loss for me.

At the time 18 soundstages supported my LP12 and it completely confused some dealers and listeners. When a nice user from England (now runs a large audio forum) visited us, he said it was the best system he had ever heard, even though he was familiar with JWs and someone else's system of the same league. Overall, the mana levels were higher than they are currently. But thanks to Fredrik's products, this is no longer necessary, as significantly better musicality is achieved despite fewer levels.

That means there isn't just one path that leads to Rome.
Trust your ears
User avatar
Hermann
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 604
Joined: 2018-05-13 06:52
Location: Ruhrgebiet

Re: Hermanns System

Post by Hermann »

By the way, new action coming up. I had the opportunity to purchase three Ubiquity Amplifi HD routers cheaply and will create a dedicated WiFi network for the Källa. One should be connected directly to the AVM router via LAN, the second one floor higher and the third directly next to the Källa. This makes a direct comparison of both WiFi routes possible.
Trust your ears
Spannko
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2281
Joined: 2008-01-24 21:46
Location: North East of The Black Country, UK

Re: Hermanns System

Post by Spannko »

Not easy on the first two, but I think I have a preference for E4 over D3. I’ll listen again later.
tokenbrit
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2038
Joined: 2012-03-22 19:47
Location: New England

Re: Hermanns System

Post by tokenbrit »

I was thinking the same as Spannko on Take Five but it’s an odd one: D is very sax forward with less musical support from the rest of the band… E is more enjoyably balanced, but I don’t know that the sax is as accomplished. Overall I prefer the presentation of E - not sure if it’s better tune~wise, but it is band-wise… A bit on the fence (with Spannko) hoping it takes our weight :/
User avatar
ThomasOK
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4345
Joined: 2007-02-02 18:41
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: Hermanns System

Post by ThomasOK »

I prefer E on all three of them. I had the hardest time on the 2 clips but even there her voice sounded more natural and things seemed more together. On 1 the whole thing just sounded wrong on D but good on E such that I am still listening to it as I type. On 3/4 I also noticed the overblown sax on D3 but I felt all the instruments were better portrayed on E4 and sounded a bit off on D3.
Last edited by ThomasOK on 2023-11-08 21:46, edited 2 times in total.
The LP12 Whisperer
Manufacturer, Distributor, Retailer and above all lover of music.
User avatar
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6504
Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: Hermanns System

Post by lejonklou »

I find E4 better than D3.

Something is odd about how they play in D3, all of them, while with E4 it's just good.
Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4830
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Re: Hermanns System

Post by Charlie1 »

The only one I didn't like was D2 as the tempo seemed hurried.

Couldn't really get anything from the first track though.

Take Five was more even for me with perhaps a slight preference for E.
User avatar
Hermann
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 604
Joined: 2018-05-13 06:52
Location: Ruhrgebiet

Re: Hermanns System

Post by Hermann »

Thank you very much for your comments.

D - AVM Repeater
E - Amplifi HD

Compared with the Amplifi HD, the music via the AVM repeaters does indeed sound strange, but not if only the AVM is known. On the other hand, I have no comparison with other routers, so can't say anything about the absolute quality of the Amplfi HD.

I also had difficulties hearing the difference in the recordings with the JBL 308. I don't know why.
But the gain is so clear that I spontaneously made a hierarchical classification of the upgrades of recent years.

Tundra Monos 3.0 !
.
.
.
.
.
Ekstatik - Amplifi HD
.
.
Tundra Stereo
.
Entity 1.2 - Källa
Sagatun Monos
KR/2

Above all, the entire "microcosm" of musical representation changed. A clear push towards vinyl which really amazes me. It's not because of the dedicated wifi network for the Källa. In the meantime, I connected other devices, but couldn't detect any influence.

With the AVM repeaters it was possible to play music in the background. The Amplfi HD hardly allows this. Conversely, this of course means that the AVM repeater is less suitable for audio streams.

And once again I have to quote Fredrik's words when he commented some time ago that I hadn't heard the Källa properly yet. I really hadn't until yesterday, because this unexpected gain in musicality is enormous and reminds me of the presentation of almost perfect vinyl playback.
Trust your ears
matthias
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2089
Joined: 2007-12-25 16:47
Location: Germany

Re: Hermanns System

Post by matthias »

Hermann wrote: 2023-11-09 10:39
But the gain is so clear that I spontaneously made a hierarchical classification of the upgrades of recent years.
Tundra Monos 3.0 !
.
.
.
.
.
Ekstatik - Amplifi HD
Thanks for sharing Hermann,
when the upgrade by a router is about the same as by a 7k cartridge it really makes sense to explore this category of devices.
Matt

MBP / Exposure pre + power (both modified) / JBL3677
User avatar
Hermann
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 604
Joined: 2018-05-13 06:52
Location: Ruhrgebiet

Re: Hermanns System

Post by Hermann »

The assessment is not absolute. I see the jump from Kandid to Ekstatik rather like the jump from AVM to Amplifi. Maybe it wasn't stated clearly enough.
Trust your ears
Post Reply