JBL 308P and 708P

[u252agz]

I don’t think Spannko can be using his KDS/1 as a preamp.

I have still not recovered from switching from Sagatun Monos to the digital volume control on KDS/1 a few years ago.

The Sagatuns went off for an upgrade and the music fell off a cliff. I remember being quite upset for a long time.

I’m currently using KDS/2 with Giella pi and JBL 308s and it’s actually OK.

Those JBLs really need a Kalla and Giella/sagatuns to really show what they are capable of.

Out of interest the DVC on KDS/2 is vastly superior to that on KDS/1 - still not a patch on sagatuns orvGiella though.

[Spannko]

has the performance of your JBL308 increased over time Spannko?

I haven’t tried them again, since discovering that the KDS/308 combo isn’t a good one, however I’m very tempted to follow F’s lead and build them into the TV cabinet!

Using JBL 308s without a preamp!? ...say it ain't so Spannko!

Ha! No. I tried it but it wasn’t good. My Kairn has stopped working too, so they’re just gathering dust atm.

[Lego]

I haven’t tried them again, since discovering that the KDS/308 combo isn’t a good one, however I’m very tempted to follow F’s lead and build them into the TV cabinet!

Using JBL 308s without a preamp!? ...say it ain't so Spannko!

Ha! No. I tried it but it wasn’t good. My Kairn has stopped working too, so they’re just gathering dust atm.

That's a pity

[Defender]

I haven’t tried them again, since discovering that the KDS/308 combo isn’t a good one, however I’m very tempted to follow F’s lead and build them into the TV cabinet!

Using JBL 308s without a preamp!? ...say it ain't so Spannko!

Ha! No. I tried it but it wasn’t good. My Kairn has stopped working too, so they’re just gathering dust atm.

and yours was a KDS 2 if I remember it right … with EXACT outputs it cant be a KDS 1

[Spannko]

Using JBL 308s without a preamp!? ...say it ain't so Spannko!

Ha! No. I tried it but it wasn’t good. My Kairn has stopped working too, so they’re just gathering dust atm.

and yours was a KDS 2 if I remember it right … with EXACT outputs it cant be a KDS 1

Actually, you’re quite right Defender. You know more about my system than I do!

[Defender]

what I was trying to say is the 708 transfers analog to digital and than digital to analog and than drives the ClassD amp

where the

308 transfers analog to digital and than uses a digital amp directly without transferring back to analog before
so it seems one conversation less.

I know its a theoretical discussion.

The codec chip is a combined DAC and DSP unit.

the ST 350 is a DAC, DSP and power amp - you wouldnt believe if you see the small form factor and the small heat sink on top.

[tokenbrit]

Has anyone here listened to 708Ps, or is it only Jajo (& Fredrik), with Azazello (im)patiently waiting for his?

[Hermann]

Inspired by the discussion about the JBL 308, I swapped my Presonus E8 and often catch myself in front of my PC listening to Spotify (Free 3 month subscription).

While they are still on the old stands, they are replaced with Kan Stands. I make up the missing height with Soudstages and some stone slabs.

But already I'm excited about the change, even when cutting videos.

My thanks to the round to deal so extensively with these speakers.

[jajo]

A word of caution regarding speakers.

They are the most "dangerous" part of the Hifi system because they change the tonal character the most. This can surely be fun, but also very confusing and steal valuable time from listening to music. In my experience, changing speakers frequently makes me more "nerdy" and I lose the positive energy that I am addicted to from listening to music.

When I have found speakers that work great and communicate the emotions from the music, I try to spend as little time as possible thinking about them and also the tonal character of the system. I just try to enjoy music and movies.

We are all different and I am not saying how other people should spend their time or what to do with their systems - this is just something I've noticed with myself and I had many lost years trying to find the "optimal sound". It is a never-ending chase for something that is constantly changing as we get bored. It is cured by exploring the world of music.

/ Jacob

[matthias]

A word of caution regarding speakers.
They are the most "dangerous" part of the Hifi system because they change the tonal character the most. This can surely be fun, but also very confusing and steal valuable time from listening to music. In my experience, changing speakers frequently makes me more "nerdy" and I lose the positive energy that I am addicted to from listening to music.
When I have found speakers that work great and communicate the emotions from the music, I try to spend as little time as possible thinking about them and also the tonal character of the system. I just try to enjoy music and movies.
We are all different and I am not saying how other people should spend their time or what to do with their systems - this is just something I've noticed with myself and I had many lost years trying to find the "optimal sound". It is a never-ending chase for something that is constantly changing as we get bored. It is cured by exploring the world of music.

+1,
I stick to my 3677s...:-)

[u252agz]

A word of caution regarding speakers.

They are the most "dangerous" part of the Hifi system because they change the tonal character the most. This can surely be fun, but also very confusing and steal valuable time from listening to music. In my experience, changing speakers frequently makes me more "nerdy" and I lose the positive energy that I am addicted to from listening to music.

When I have found speakers that work great and communicate the emotions from the music, I try to spend as little time as possible thinking about them and also the tonal character of the system. I just try to enjoy music and movies.

We are all different and I am not saying how other people should spend their time or what to do with their systems - this is just something I've noticed with myself and I had many lost years trying to find the "optimal sound". It is a never-ending chase for something that is constantly changing as we get bored. It is cured by exploring the world of music.

/ Jacob

I agree.

All one needs is a ‘musical’ set of speakers that let the rest of the system do it’s job, with minimal interference.

Soaring treble and thundering bass are good and well but never at tjhe expense of musicality.

My Komponent 110s have no bass and very little dynamics but I think they are as musical as my 242s and possibly my 308s. They sound just great with a top source and good amplification and disappear from the music.

The old Ninkas may look nicer and have more bass and better dynamics but not a patch on the 110s in terms of musicality .

[Hermann]

Thanks jajo. That's right and a realisation from many earlier listening sessions. And also the reason why I have been listening to briks since the beginning of the 90s.

[Spannko]

A word of caution regarding speakers.

They are the most "dangerous" part of the Hifi system because they change the tonal character the most. This can surely be fun, but also very confusing and steal valuable time from listening to music. In my experience, changing speakers frequently makes me more "nerdy" and I lose the positive energy that I am addicted to from listening to music.

When I have found speakers that work great and communicate the emotions from the music, I try to spend as little time as possible thinking about them and also the tonal character of the system. I just try to enjoy music and movies.

We are all different and I am not saying how other people should spend their time or what to do with their systems - this is just something I've noticed with myself and I had many lost years trying to find the "optimal sound". It is a never-ending chase for something that is constantly changing as we get bored. It is cured by exploring the world of music.

/ Jacob

I agree.

All one needs is a ‘musical’ set of speakers that let the rest of the system do it’s job, with minimal interference.

Soaring treble and thundering bass are good and well but never at tjhe expense of musicality.

My Komponent 110s have no bass and very little dynamics but I think they are as musical as my 242s and possibly my 308s. They sound just great with a top source and good amplification and disappear from the music.

The old Ninkas may look nicer and have more bass and better dynamics but not a patch on the 110s in terms of musicality .

For me, what you’re both highlighting is just how unmusical practically all modern loudspeakers are, and why, after finding a musical source and amplification, most people are stuck in a cycle of trial and error with their loudspeakers - they never do the front end of the system justice. We’re reduced to exploring the quirky alternatives like 35 year old Kans, surround sound 110s, cinema 3677s, budget semi-pro and discontinued 308s and 70 year old ESLs!

[lindsayt]

I agree.

All one needs is a ‘musical’ set of speakers that let the rest of the system do it’s job, with minimal interference.

Soaring treble and thundering bass are good and well but never at tjhe expense of musicality.

My Komponent 110s have no bass and very little dynamics but I think they are as musical as my 242s and possibly my 308s. They sound just great with a top source and good amplification and disappear from the music.

The old Ninkas may look nicer and have more bass and better dynamics but not a patch on the 110s in terms of musicality .

A speaker with very little dynamics and no bass would be my definition of an untuneful speaker and therefore one that I'd relegate to surround sound duties in my AV system instead of using them to listen to music.

That's because dynamics - or dynamic freedom - are essential to preserving the tune.

Speakers with no bass filter out the bass drum and bass guitar. The bass drum is the most important drum in the drumkit. It's this drum that drives the music along. The bass guitar is important for setting the rhythm of the track and complimenting what the drummer is doing.

Bass should be there in the right quantity and the right quality. There are so many slimline ported low efficiency speakers that fail in this area. Relatively speaking.

Get the 110's in the same room, playing the same track as speakers that are at least as good at overall clarity and are better at dynamics and bass quantity and quality and it will be obvious which speaker gets you humming along to the tune more and tapping your feet more.

Speakers like the 110's impose far too much of their character on the music. Instead of getting out of the way like a good / tuneful pair of speakers and allowing the music to come through and speak for itself.

[FairPlayMotty]

For me, what you’re both highlighting is just how unmusical practically all modern loudspeakers are

To quote Brent Butterworth, "In the case of speakers, measurement methods that have been shown to predict user satisfaction with 86% correlation were established more than 30 years ago. They were developed largely through extensive research led by Dr. Floyd Toole, conducted at Canada’s National Research Council (NRC) in Ottawa, and continued at Harman International. Countless speaker companies now use these methods as a design guideline. That’s because they know that speakers that measure well according to these principles will sound good to most listeners."

An 86% correlation is extremely difficult to achieve. The requirements from a loudspeaker on this forum are more arduous than on most audio forums. Nevertheless even on this forum JBL 3677, 308P, 708P and other JBL models have been thought to exhibit musicality by many forum members. Harman International makes a plethora of loudspeakers via a number of companies using the same overriding methodology. The design principles developed by the NRC then Harman are now being followed (to a greater or lesser extent) by many other companies. That doesn't mean that every loudspeaker produced using the NRC/Harman methodology will meet the criteria demanded by this forum. However to conclude that the NRC/Harman are able to achieve an 86% user satisfaction correlation by sheer luck is a stretch, at best. The methodology used isn't a secret - it's widely available and has been published in a variety of open source publications for many years. Some of the other loudspeaker companies using that methodology produce models that have been quoted by leading forum members as exhibiting musicality.

What does this tell us? The one area of audio component design that has a high degree of proven user satisfaction predictive accuracy is loudspeaker design.

[Spannko]

For me, what you’re both highlighting is just how unmusical practically all modern loudspeakers are

To quote Brent Butterworth, "In the case of speakers, measurement methods that have been shown to predict user satisfaction with 86% correlation were established more than 30 years ago. They were developed largely through extensive research led by Dr. Floyd Toole, conducted at Canada’s National Research Council (NRC) in Ottawa, and continued at Harman International. Countless speaker companies now use these methods as a design guideline. That’s because they know that speakers that measure well according to these principles will sound good to most listeners."

An 86% correlation is extremely difficult to achieve. The requirements from a loudspeaker on this forum are more arduous than on most audio forums. Nevertheless even on this forum JBL 3677, 308P, 708P and other JBL models have been thought to exhibit musicality by many forum members. Harman International makes a plethora of loudspeakers via a number of companies using the same overriding methodology. The design principles developed by the NRC then Harman are now being followed (to a greater or lesser extent) by many other companies. That doesn't mean that every loudspeaker produced using the NRC/Harman methodology will meet the criteria demanded by this forum. However to conclude that the NRC/Harman are able to achieve an 86% user satisfaction correlation by sheer luck is a stretch, at best. The methodology used isn't a secret - it's widely available and has been published in a variety of open source publications for many years. Some of the other loudspeaker companies using that methodology produce models that have been quoted by leading forum members as exhibiting musicality.

What does this tell us? The one area of audio component design that has a high degree of proven user satisfaction predictive accuracy is loudspeaker design.

You’re confusing “sound preference” with “musicality”, and, when listeners are trained to listen in a certain way, by “educating” them in what constitutes “good” and “bad” sound, it’s hardly surprising that they then tend to agree with one another! Harman are as likely to produce an unmusical speaker as they are a musical speaker. Take the 308 mk 2 as an example. It doesn’t have the musicality of the Mk 1. Why? Because “musicality” isn’t considered in their design process. When they release a musical speaker, it’s by pure chance.

[u252agz]

For me, what you’re both highlighting is just how unmusical practically all modern loudspeakers are

To quote Brent Butterworth, "In the case of speakers, measurement methods that have been shown to predict user satisfaction with 86% correlation were established more than 30 years ago. They were developed largely through extensive research led by Dr. Floyd Toole, conducted at Canada’s National Research Council (NRC) in Ottawa, and continued at Harman International. Countless speaker companies now use these methods as a design guideline. That’s because they know that speakers that measure well according to these principles will sound good to most listeners."

An 86% correlation is extremely difficult to achieve. The requirements from a loudspeaker on this forum are more arduous than on most audio forums. Nevertheless even on this forum JBL 3677, 308P, 708P and other JBL models have been thought to exhibit musicality by many forum members. Harman International makes a plethora of loudspeakers via a number of companies using the same overriding methodology. The design principles developed by the NRC then Harman are now being followed (to a greater or lesser extent) by many other companies. That doesn't mean that every loudspeaker produced using the NRC/Harman methodology will meet the criteria demanded by this forum. However to conclude that the NRC/Harman are able to achieve an 86% user satisfaction correlation by sheer luck is a stretch, at best. The methodology used isn't a secret - it's widely available and has been published in a variety of open source publications for many years. Some of the other loudspeaker companies using that methodology produce models that have been quoted by leading forum members as exhibiting musicality.

What does this tell us? The one area of audio component design that has a high degree of proven user satisfaction predictive accuracy is loudspeaker design.

You’re confusing “sound preference” with “musicality”, and, when listeners are trained to listen in a certain way, by “educating” them in what constitutes “good” and “bad” sound, it’s hardly surprising that they then tend to agree with one another! Harman are as likely to produce an unmusical speaker as they are a musical speaker. Take the 308 mk 2 as an example. It doesn’t have the musicality of the Mk 1. Why? Because “musicality” isn’t considered in their design process. When they release a musical speaker, it’s by pure chance.

Yes - I think that is why have a very limited number of 'musical' speakers, many of which are 'old'.

I am sure most manufactures will not design and build a speaker with the above 'NRC/Hardman 'criteria, and then reject them on musicality terms, and start again from scratch. Or dismantle each and every part of that speaker and try new parts or different combinations until the desired musicality is achieved.

Its just too time consuming and for most companies too expensive.

Makes more commercial sense to make them look really nice and tick all the Hi FI parameters most people are happy with.

[jajo]

Speakers are the least important part of the music system which probably makes it pretty difficult to construct them. I have no experience from this, but it is just my gut instinct. It requires following a very strict method to ensure that the development is about actually improving the musicality and not just being affected by personal taste in tonal character. Also they must perform in many different types of rooms with different acoustics.

I am not surprised that there are so many bad speakers out there.

[FairPlayMotty]

You’re confusing “sound preference” with “musicality”

I'm confusing nothing.

There's a body of science to back up the theory. Read what I wrote - there are carefully worded caveats about musicality.

[Defender]

there is a discussion about the 308 and the 708 in audiosciencereview where the 308p scored more points than the 708p measured with Harmans own evaluation test. Measurements can help but not all the time.
I trust the ears in this forum more than those measurements. Another example is Linns DVC measures better sounds worst.

… and the 308p tested was even the MKII version

[FairPlayMotty]

If you read about the Harman methodology it's not time or staff intensive to go from concept to prototype.

[lejonklou]

You’re confusing “sound preference” with “musicality”

I'm confusing nothing.

There's a body of science to back up the theory. Read what I wrote - there are carefully worded caveats about musicality.

If you're not confusing the two, what are you trying to say with your post?

However to conclude that the NRC/Harman are able to achieve an 86% user satisfaction correlation by sheer luck is a stretch, at best.

Perhaps I missed it, but I don't recall anyone mentioning the NRC research or drawing this conclusion. Why did you bring it up?

[ThomasOK]

You’re confusing “sound preference” with “musicality”

I'm confusing nothing.

There's a body of science to back up the theory. Read what I wrote - there are carefully worded caveats about musicality.

I read what you wrote and it makes little sense. If the parameters set by the NRC and Harman using that research could really be used to make a truly musical speaker then you would expect most, if not all, of the JBL speakers would be very musical. But as Jajo and others have found there are actually relatively few of their models that really do the trick. This is also true of speakers from Paradigm, PSB and others who were part of the NRC. They have had some models that were good for the money and others that just weren't. It was the downturn in musical quality of the Paradigms over the last few years that made us decide to stop carrying them, yet they still proudly talk about the design criteria that came from the NRC research. I'm sorry but I have heard many designs claimed to be based on NRC principles and only a few that I truly liked. I rather like the PSB Alpha P5 as for it's $449 a pair price it is quite musical and hard to beat for a passive speaker at that price in the US. Then again you can probably source a pair of JBL 305P Mk 1 for the same kind of money if you don't mind used. My experience is that the "body of science" has still yet to be able to consistently make truly musical and engaging audio equipment. Not even in electronics, where you would think things would be simpler than in a speaker where you have to marry electronics, acoustics and mechanics to produce a sound which then has to interface with a room.

[u252agz]

I agree.

All one needs is a ‘musical’ set of speakers that let the rest of the system do it’s job, with minimal interference.

Soaring treble and thundering bass are good and well but never at tjhe expense of musicality.

My Komponent 110s have no bass and very little dynamics but I think they are as musical as my 242s and possibly my 308s. They sound just great with a top source and good amplification and disappear from the music.

The old Ninkas may look nicer and have more bass and better dynamics but not a patch on the 110s in terms of musicality .

A speaker with very little dynamics and no bass would be my definition of an untuneful speaker and therefore one that I'd relegate to surround sound duties in my AV system instead of using them to listen to music.

That's because dynamics - or dynamic freedom - are essential to preserving the tune.

Speakers with no bass filter out the bass drum and bass guitar. The bass drum is the most important drum in the drumkit. It's this drum that drives the music along. The bass guitar is important for setting the rhythm of the track and complimenting what the drummer is doing.

Bass should be there in the right quantity and the right quality. There are so many slimline ported low efficiency speakers that fail in this area. Relatively speaking.

Get the 110's in the same room, playing the same track as speakers that are at least as good at overall clarity and are better at dynamics and bass quantity and quality and it will be obvious which speaker gets you humming along to the tune more and tapping your feet more.

Speakers like the 110's impose far too much of their character on the music. Instead of getting out of the way like a good / tuneful pair of speakers and allowing the music to come through and speak for itself.

Although the 110s are not at well endowed in the Bass department, or the dynamic range - they do have some bass and dynamics, easily enough for me to enjoy the music and 'hum along'. The Bass drum and Bass guitar are not absent, just reduced in quantity. The timing and rhythm of the track are still there, and to my ears, preferable to many larger speakers. My Ninkas being a case in point.

The same would apply to a great pair of musical headphones, with which a good source and amp can sound very musical.

It is of course preferable to keep the musicality and increase the quantity of bass, but only if the quality is there- the latter to my ears is far more important..

[El Mero Mero]

There are more parameters then just tunefulness involved in loudspeakers. How loud do you listen to music for instance. A loudspeaker can be really tuneful at low to moderate volume and struggle at loud volume. How important is it to hear all the bass notes at the same strength? Do you have to take considerations of your neighbours and so on..