Hermanns System

Share your journey!

Moderator: Staff

Post Reply
User avatar
PetterS
Active Member
Active Member
Posts: 54
Joined: 2017-06-03 15:11
Location: Luleå, Sweden

Re: Hermanns System

Post by PetterS »

That is indeed very interesting. Since I was not familiar of any of theses tracks before, I just checked them out on my own setup from Spoitfy. Tracks 1 and 3 are actually way more electronic and loudness pushed in the mix than I thought when hearing your mobile recordings.
The setup on clip 2 excelled in the Labend clip. Listen to the section from 1.31 when the triangle starts. The middle parts are all blurred in 1 but so clear and easy to follow in 2.
Since I'm mostly listening on acoustically based music, my choice would definitely be the set up on 2.
Primare Np5 & NP30, Genki, Boazu, Ninka w. Poly. st., ICs: Linn Si & bl incl. dig, tt TD46,
User avatar
Hermann
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 616
Joined: 2018-05-13 06:52
Location: Ruhrgebiet

Re: Hermanns System

Post by Hermann »

Hi Defender

Regarding both preamps, I play each for two days and then switch to the other. Unfortunately, I can not proceed as you describe. I need the Mark Levinson Din to Chinch cable between Entity 1.1 and 552, but also to connect the streamer to the Sagatuns. For the Sagatuns, as written, I have another set of RCAs available, which I will probably test out tomorrow, then it will be the Sagatuns turn again. I think but each two days of idle (of course under power) should not falsify the result.

With cables I'm just not well equipped and so far only at home in the Naim environment.

Nevertheless, I do not want to leave unmentioned that the respective switch to the Sagatuns does not miss anything. As with the Entity 1.1, my heart now also beats for the Sagatuns. However, the switch to the 552 always lets me breathe a little easier.
Trust your ears
Defender
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1266
Joined: 2018-02-14 22:35

Re: Hermanns System

Post by Defender »

I see - I was only afraid the Sagatuns did not got enough play time so far to be fully run in ... and as stated before to run in the component needs an actual signal to run through like in a normal listening situation - only powering the device doesn’t let it run in (maybe only the power supply of the device). But thats just my experience and this doesnt mean it is like I said (maybe it is just my subjective understanding).

As long as the recordings for the Sagatun are not done with the ML Silver cable in the chain all is fine.
Hope Marco gives you more time with the Sagatun to be sure what to do in the end.
User avatar
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6524
Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: Hermanns System

Post by lejonklou »

Interesting findings, Hermann!
User avatar
mrco99
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 723
Joined: 2009-12-10 17:14
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: Hermanns System

Post by mrco99 »

No problem to enjoy and compare them a bit longer Hermann.
Distributor of Lejonklou | Aqua | Graham Audio | Klangedang | NOKTable | Ophidian | The Wand
Defender
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1266
Joined: 2018-02-14 22:35

Re: Hermanns System

Post by Defender »

maybe again Fredrik finds a joker card to play ;)
User avatar
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6524
Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: Hermanns System

Post by lejonklou »

Defender wrote: 2021-06-03 21:06 maybe again Fredrik finds a joker card to play ;)
Just to explain what Defender is referring to:

When Hermann compared Entity with his Naim (top of the line?) phono stage a while back I already had a list of ideas for Entity to test at some point in the future. That I preferred the Naim in the set of clips he then posted inspired me to put everything else aside and go through that list right away. Sometimes you just get the urge. And I was lucky to find one thing working really well, which resulted in the upgrade of Entity to version 1.1. I sent the first 1.1 unit to Hermann and this time it won over the Naim.

This time I'm afraid I don't have any Jokers.

Which input was used on the Sagatun Mono's? Single Source and the switch flipped down?

Were the original power cords used? Are they positioned first in the power strip and the source second or the other way around? (That order has been debated a lot on this forum).

I'm looking forward to what impact the change of interconnects will have. The connection between source to preamp is quite influential.
matthias
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2092
Joined: 2007-12-25 16:47
Location: Germany

Re: Hermanns System

Post by matthias »

lejonklou wrote: 2021-06-03 22:52 This time I'm afraid I don't have any Jokers.
Just joking:

Maybe using the new Mana Clamp for both the 552 and SM and then the differences become much clearer:

https://adriancowderoy.com/the-mana-aco ... er-review/

Matt
Matt

MBP / Exposure pre + power (both modified) / JBL3677
User avatar
PetterS
Active Member
Active Member
Posts: 54
Joined: 2017-06-03 15:11
Location: Luleå, Sweden

Re: Hermanns System

Post by PetterS »

lejonklou wrote: 2021-06-03 22:52
Defender wrote: 2021-06-03 21:06 maybe again Fredrik finds a joker card to play ;)
This time I'm afraid I don't have any Jokers.
Why would you need a Joker? As I said earlier, Sagatun really excelled in the Labend clip. It's so obvious in the section from 1.31 where the middle parts are all blurred in the Naim. I think the other clips were recordings just in the sweetspot for Naim, with a lot of loudness and "nice" sounds.
Primare Np5 & NP30, Genki, Boazu, Ninka w. Poly. st., ICs: Linn Si & bl incl. dig, tt TD46,
User avatar
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6524
Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: Hermanns System

Post by lejonklou »

Thank you PetterS!

It's of course only because I want Sagatun Mono to be the best in every aspect and angle.
User avatar
Ron The Mon
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 301
Joined: 2014-07-17 17:17
Location: Detroit
Contact:

Power Strip Order

Post by Ron The Mon »

lejonklou wrote: 2021-06-03 22:52 Were the original [Sagatun Mono] power cords used? Are they positioned first in the power strip and the source second or the other way around? (That order has been debated a lot on this forum).
Naim recommend power-amp first, pre-amp second, and sources last in the power strip. I am a pre-amp firster, then Radikal, then phono stage, then other sources, then power-amp; as recommended here.

I have stayed away from commenting on most threads on this Forum about power strips as I believe they are all misleading. A proper power strip is only as good as the power fed to it. This isn't about cable type or diameter or outlet composition; it is about a completely separate circuit fed off the main house distribution sequentially. The hi-fi should be the first leg off that distribution block, including ground, neutral, and hot; then spread in the same manner. I believe Hermann has this, though his German to Queen's English translator doesn't quite work in Detroit.

Sequentially means there is no "star" (or mixed) anything. Hot, neutral, and ground are all in sequential order for all hi-fi items. When I compare any two items in my hi-fi, I keep the items I'm not listening to connected to a completely separate extension cord just to keep them warm and the capacitors fully polarized. It seems Hermann is doing this. That order should benefit both the 552 and Sagatun Monos.

Ron The Mon
User avatar
Hermann
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 616
Joined: 2018-05-13 06:52
Location: Ruhrgebiet

Re: Hermanns System

Post by Hermann »

@Defender
The recordings via the Sagatuns are done with Marco's cable.
However, there is no need for a Joker in this case.

@mrco99
Thank you Marco.

@matthias
I definitely don't do business with JW anymore.

@PetterS
I have listened to the said passage several times through DT770pro headphones and headphone amplifier (Sabay D3) and can not understand the blurred sound of the 552. I also do not understand the Naim sweet spot. That certain volume differences arise between both preamps I do not see as tragic.

Power connection
The Sagatuns use the single source inputs, as well as the original power cables. Regarding the order, I follow my rule that has been valid for decades. First a separate cable (here 5x10qmm) from the house distribution to the system. The cable is soldered directly into a 5 way connector strip and two of the 5 wires including ground are led directly to another one. So two 5-fold plug strips in a row. Thus two circuits are available, which are connected in the main distribution to the same phase but fused separately. I paid special attention to the grounding and checked it for possible bad contact. Fortunately, this is very well installed.

My order of connecting the power cables follows a different rule.
LP12 - Entity 1.1 - Preamp - Poweramp > Fuse 1
NDS - WLAN Repeater > Fuse 2

The Tundra Stereo is also connected in the digital sector of the power strip currently. So the two Sagatuns are served by the 3rd and 4th plugs of the first powerblock, the 552 is in the 5th.

@Ron the Moon
"A real power strip is only as good as the power it is fed." Once again, we agree. Tested every conceivable scenario in terms of arrangement and material and stuck with a well executed, as you write, sequential solution.

Since no digital source is necessary for the recordings, I could give the Sagatuns first place on the power strips. In fact, I had not thought of changing the order.

Well Ron, DeepL helps to translate to British English. Should I trust them completely instead of parts only?
Trust your ears
Defender
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1266
Joined: 2018-02-14 22:35

Re: Hermanns System

Post by Defender »

yes thats one promising step to try ... as Fredrik said - order in the Power Strip:
Sagatun Monos first (Single Source input, flip down and upper output for the connection to Tundra) closest to the Fuse
than Radikal/LP12
than Entity
than Tundra (Tundra at the same power strip/Fuse) last device ... most away from the Fuse.

Fuse > Sagatun Mono > Radikal > Entity > Tundra

that should change some and sounds promising
beck
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2752
Joined: 2012-10-22 22:25

Re: Hermanns System

Post by beck »

.....and remember to compare the two different power cord setups against each other.

I would also have a listen to the Giella pi as a preamp just to hear the difference.
Playing cd’s…………
matthias
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2092
Joined: 2007-12-25 16:47
Location: Germany

Re: Hermanns System

Post by matthias »

beck wrote: 2021-06-04 08:43 I would also have a listen to the Giella pi as a preamp just to hear the difference.
This was my suggestion as well, Hermann replied that he is currently on a different path to finding his happiness.

Matt
Matt

MBP / Exposure pre + power (both modified) / JBL3677
User avatar
Hermann
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 616
Joined: 2018-05-13 06:52
Location: Ruhrgebiet

Re: Hermanns System

Post by Hermann »

Thanks to all for the hints. I will modify as recommended. Especially to exchange the power cables of the Sagatuns among themselves. Will proceed as Defender described. To do this, the 552 must be temporarily connected to the power strip 2. But since I have the option to give both Sagatuns the first place in a power strip each, I will also test this option.

But first, Marco's new cable run in, looped between pre and amp for now. Later between entity and Sagatuns. Before any further change is triggered, I want to have the cable halfway ok. To do this, the NDS now runs on the Sagatuns.

Already a difference of the new cables is clear as a first impression to the Linns.
Trust your ears
User avatar
Hermann
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 616
Joined: 2018-05-13 06:52
Location: Ruhrgebiet

Re: Hermanns System

Post by Hermann »

Short update regarding cable

Once again, I don't know how to describe the new finding. After less than four hours, the roughness of the new cable has almost disappeared, and worse, I can't write any more. In fact, the increase in musicality is clearly noticeable. Although the NDS is connected via the Mark Levinson cable, I don't miss anything.

What a cable! By the way, the brand is completely unknown to me.

At these times I like to play lounge music in the background. Preferred stations are "HirschmilchRadio" and "HiOnLineLo". Nothing special and not even music I just wanted to listen to. But it pulls me along and I hear almost like from record. Unimaginable, really...

Will see what the cable offers after a longer warm-up periode tomorrow. Guess I post examples then. Since the recordings from the NDS still exist via Sagatuns (Linn cable), a comparison Linn against Vermöuth cable would be possible.
.
.
20210604_131452.jpg
20210604_131534.png
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Trust your ears
Defender
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1266
Joined: 2018-02-14 22:35

Re: Hermanns System

Post by Defender »

so difference is now only the cable between pre and power amp? but the same order of connection of the devices to the power strip?
User avatar
Hermann
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 616
Joined: 2018-05-13 06:52
Location: Ruhrgebiet

Re: Hermanns System

Post by Hermann »

Well yes, thats the current setup. Powercords will be changed tomorrow evening or maybe later. Before that I want to record some music. What I think is necessary for a fair comparison.

After about six hours with new cables returns significantly more quiet and sounds more relaxed.
Trust your ears
User avatar
Hermann
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 616
Joined: 2018-05-13 06:52
Location: Ruhrgebiet

Re: Hermanns System

Post by Hermann »

Good morning everyone
After the internet was down for the whole day yesterday, here are the promised recordings as a comparison between Linn and Vermönth kabel. Source is the Naim NDS.

As before, the setup is the same and will be rebuilt regarding the powercords during the day. Vermöunth cable between Sagatun pre and Tundra amp.

1 Linn cable
2 Vermöuth cable

Malia

1 https://drive.google.com/file/d/1AV8rP8 ... sp=sharing

2 https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hR11WV ... sp=sharing

Labend

1 https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WdThSp ... sp=sharing

2 https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ALX02P ... sp=sharing

Grand


1 https://drive.google.com/file/d/1uvAjnI ... sp=sharing

2 https://drive.google.com/file/d/1miFVHh ... sp=sharing
Trust your ears
Defender
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1266
Joined: 2018-02-14 22:35

Re: Hermanns System

Post by Defender »

here is what I hear - the Vermöuth cable seem to sound more clear and precise - the Linn cable sounds like there is a halo around some notes. Initially the Vermöuth sounded more relaxed to me but with respect to musicality I am not 100% sure if its better than the Linn.
matthias
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2092
Joined: 2007-12-25 16:47
Location: Germany

Re: Hermanns System

Post by matthias »

Hermann wrote: 2021-06-07 07:58 1 Linn cable
2 Vermöuth cable
Hermann,

thanks for the clips but why the disclosure pre-listening?
Thanks

Matt
Matt

MBP / Exposure pre + power (both modified) / JBL3677
User avatar
Hermann
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 616
Joined: 2018-05-13 06:52
Location: Ruhrgebiet

Re: Hermanns System

Post by Hermann »

Hello Defender,
I know this effect very well. When presentation becomes clearer, the musical impression sometimes seems reduced. On the other hand, I don't know how long the cable takes to break in. So far it has played up to 16 hours a day for two days.

In fact, nothing is missing in the musicality with these cables. In this respect, the cable is a gain in clarity with actually the same musical characteristics. Nevertheless, it is possible to follow the lines a little better.

Currently is 552 playing , because I want to compare impressions with the changed mains cable configuration.


@matthias
You're right, of course, but I didn't think to make a blind comparison, since from my point of view the difference is obviously audible.

Marco has sent me some new cables. Among others a new set from Linn, as well as different lengths from AVID. With these I can now connect Entiy 1.1 to Sagatun to Taundra with the same supplier. But first comes the recommended change of the mains cable.

If it is rather desired to post examples covertly, I will gladly do so.
Trust your ears
Spannko
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2292
Joined: 2008-01-24 21:46
Location: North East of The Black Country, UK

Re: Hermanns System

Post by Spannko »

Using a tune method of evaluation, the Linn’s are in a different league to the inharmonius Vermoüth’s.
matthias
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2092
Joined: 2007-12-25 16:47
Location: Germany

Re: Hermanns System

Post by matthias »

I think it is questionable to combine products which are designed according to the tune method with products which are not.

Matt
Matt

MBP / Exposure pre + power (both modified) / JBL3677
Post Reply