Four years in the making

A source of endless thrills

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teatime
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Re: Four years in the making

Post by teatime »

Defender wrote: 2021-04-18 10:28
matthias wrote: 2021-04-18 06:47 Sounds great :-)

Will it allow streaming from Qobuz and Spotify?
What is the interface for connecting a DAC?
Thanks

Matt
why do you think you need to connect a dac? my guess is we might see a resistor ladder dac as thats what Fredrik is really good at - selecting the right components to an incredible low difference level.
Yeah, it must contain a DAC, or there wouldn't be much in it. I don't know anything about DAC design, but it still seems to me to be too much work to be done part time by a small team (remember, Lejonklou has also released a number of other products and updates in the last four years). I would guess an off-the-shelf DAC chip and some clever custom power regulation.

As for what it will play.. well it sounds like it will play whatever your "Apple device" will agree to play and "cast" (I dunno what verb Apple uses here) to an external device.

This means that the scope of what Lejonklou is doing is smaller than what Linn does with their DS concept - Källa will only need to deal with one audio codec (wikipedia suggests it is ALAC, 44.1kHz, 2 channel, encrypted) and everything will be transcoded to this by the "Apple device" before sent to the renderer (Källa). The approach makes a whole lotta sense for a small team, and is certainly much more feasible than in the mid-00s when Linn came up with the DS approach. No-one back then would have dared go WiFi only. :)

(AirPlay apparently assumes WiFi. It's unclear to me if Källa requires it. I guess we will soon know - but speculating is fun! :) )
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Re: Four years in the making

Post by matthias »

The question is how big the impact of the Apple device is for musicality.
At least from a Source First POV it can be argued that the Apple device might have some influence.

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Defender
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Re: Four years in the making

Post by Defender »

why I said what I said is the following quote from Fredrik which I had in my memory:

„I have the AK4497 but haven't heard the 4499. Even better sounds promising. There are also some other new chips around and then there's R2R DACs, which require an extreme amount of precision in the resistors, but this is already something I'm into, so not really a problem.“


however I have to state: we can trust that Fredrik works on the best sounding solution and if its not what I said and rather a DAC chip from whatever provider I am happy with it. I dont want to push the discussion into something too technical ... just got hypa excited.

by the way I think for Apple Air to play you doesnt need a wifi network its a direct point to point connection which helps to not have to worry about your wifi router and your network
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Re: Four years in the making

Post by matthias »

Defender wrote: 2021-04-18 13:17 by the way I think for Apple Air to play you doesnt need a wifi network its a direct point to point connection which helps to not have to worry about your wifi router and your network
As I understand a wifi network is not a requirement but sending the data from the Apple device to the streamer is via wifi.

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teatime
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Re: Four years in the making

Post by teatime »

Defender wrote: 2021-04-18 13:17 why I said what I said is the following quote from Fredrik which I had in my memory:

„I have the AK4497 but haven't heard the 4499. Even better sounds promising. There are also some other new chips around and then there's R2R DACs, which require an extreme amount of precision in the resistors, but this is already something I'm into, so not really a problem.“
Oh, right. I remember reading that too. I would be happy to be wrong! I agree.. exciting!
Defender wrote: 2021-04-18 13:17 by the way I think for Apple Air to play you doesnt need a wifi network its a direct point to point connection which helps to not have to worry about your wifi router and your network
Well.. your "apple device" still needs internet, so unless you're only playing content stored on your phone, you're not getting rid of your router any time soon. :)

Btw, this suggests AirPlay over ethernet should work (and that network worries are not a thing of the past):
https://discussions.apple.com/thread/5918809

It remains to be seen whether Källa will have ethernet. I suspect it will, if for no other reason than configuration/setup/firmware updates.
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Re: Four years in the making

Post by DelNaja »

Fantastic news, Fredrik! Really looking forward to knowing more of the specifics. Exciting times ahead :-)
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Re: Four years in the making

Post by springwood64 »

teatime wrote: 2021-04-18 12:06 (wikipedia suggests it is ALAC, 44.1kHz, 2 channel, encrypted)
Not just ALAC according to this: https://emanuelecozzi.net/docs/airplay2/audio/

PCM to 48000/24 or ALAC to 48000/24 plus OPUS and AAC-ELD
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Re: Four years in the making

Post by matthias »

springwood64 wrote: 2021-04-19 10:21 48000/24
These are the best sounding files.

Matt
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Re: Four years in the making

Post by PetterS »

It's gonna be really exciting to listen to this new component. The name is just brilliant. The Swedish word Källa is "source", but also the starting point of the great river systems, as well as the pure fresh water sources you will find spread all over the Sami-region, the home of Boazu, Sagatun, Slipsik and Giella. Please keep the dots in Källa!

I'm a little bit surprised that Källa is based on the Airplay protocol. When I have tried Airplay it was clearly inferior to ChromeCast (tested both Tidal and Spotify with both alt.). CC on the other hand is inferior to Spotify Connect, when casting Spotify. Both the ease of use for both CC and Spotify Connect is remarkable an can't wait to see what lossless will mean for Spotify streaming.

So is this about first downloading music, and then stream it from your Apple source to your Källa? I guess the achilles' heal in all streaming is not about transferring all the bits correctly, but to do it exactly in time. It seems that is what Linn has tried to achieve with the slightly pricey (cough) Organic DAC.
Last edited by PetterS on 2021-04-19 14:12, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Four years in the making

Post by Spannko »

Here’s a bit more on how AirPlay works.

https://expressiveaudio.com/blogs/expr ... le-airplay
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Re: Four years in the making

Post by Matteo »

Spannko wrote: 2021-04-19 13:28 Here’s a bit more on how AirPlay works.

https://expressiveaudio.com/blogs/expr ... le-airplay
Interesting.

It's seems that I need to test Qobuz via AirPlay on my DSM soon.

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Re: Four years in the making

Post by maffe »

Thats exciting news!
[Happy apple fanboy smiling]
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Re: Four years in the making

Post by lejonklou »

Thank you all for your positive words!

Källa has an ethernet port on the back, which connects to your local network. There is no other input.
The output is analogue only, through one pair of RCA connectors. There is no other output.

Källa does not use Airplay™! Källa's communication protocol is however compatible.

The physical size of Källa is like a Boazu. The price will be around two Boazu.
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Re: Four years in the making

Post by Matteo »

I just did an interesting comparison listening to the same track (John Hiatt - Alone In The Dark, from his 1986 "Bring The Family" album) through:

1. Qobuz (DSM integrated);
2. Qobuz app sent via AirPlay to the DSM;
3. Kazoo Server (Samsung T5 SSD attached to my Win10 laptop ethernet wired);
4. Kazoo Server (Samsung T5 SSD attached to my Win10 laptop via WiFi).

My ISP is SKY Italia (very fast, stable and with a strong WiFi connection).

The file stored in the SSD is from a ripped cd (I do not remember the version, having sold all my CDs long time ago).

The results were the following:

1. "direct" Qobuz is the more musical;
2. AirPlay is quite disappointing;
3. I did not heard particular differences from wired / WiFi connection, but both were less musical than "direct" Qobuz, although better than AirPlay.

Regards

M.
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Re: Four years in the making

Post by David Neel »

lejonklou wrote: 2021-04-19 20:46 Källa has an ethernet port on the back, which connects to your local network. There is no other input.
The output is analogue only, through one pair of RCA connectors. There is no other output.
lejonklou wrote: 2021-04-19 20:46 The physical size of Källa is like a Boazu. The price will be around two Boazu.
Based on this information, I'm in. I shall call my dealer tomorrow...
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AirPlaying Around

Post by Ron The Mon »

Matteo wrote: 2021-04-19 21:34 I just did an interesting comparison listening to the track (John Hiatt - Alone In The Dark, from his 1986 "Bring The Family" album) through:

2. Qobuz app sent via AirPlay to the DSM;

The results were the following:

2. AirPlay is quite disappointing;
Matteo,
AirPlay or AirPlay 2? Are you sure?

Over ethernet? What Apple devices? What ancillary equipment?

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lejonklou
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Re: Four years in the making

Post by lejonklou »

Matteo wrote: 2021-04-19 21:34 I just did an interesting comparison listening to the same track (John Hiatt - Alone In The Dark, from his 1986 "Bring The Family" album) through:

1. Qobuz (DSM integrated);
2. Qobuz app sent via AirPlay to the DSM;
3. Kazoo Server (Samsung T5 SSD attached to my Win10 laptop ethernet wired);
4. Kazoo Server (Samsung T5 SSD attached to my Win10 laptop via WiFi).

My ISP is SKY Italia (very fast, stable and with a strong WiFi connection).

The file stored in the SSD is from a ripped cd (I do not remember the version, having sold all my CDs long time ago).

The results were the following:

1. "direct" Qobuz is the more musical;
2. AirPlay is quite disappointing;
3. I did not heard particular differences from wired / WiFi connection, but both were less musical than "direct" Qobuz, although better than AirPlay.
Your findings are what I would expect.

We are using our special protocol in Källa because when playing an album with Spotify from Källa, it is more musical than playing the same album from a NAS.
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Re: Four years in the making

Post by matthias »

Hi Fredrik,

I receive Qobuz and Spotify via WiFi to my MacBook Pro.

Can I directly connect the MBP with Källa via an ethernet cable?

BTW, can you tell us something about the DAC in Källa?

Thanks

Matt
Last edited by matthias on 2021-04-20 07:38, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Four years in the making

Post by Matteo »

I suspect that Spotify is not well implemented in the Dsm. I always found it awful.

I have also another doubt: can Spotify sounds different from Country to Country?
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Re: Four years in the making

Post by anthony »

Matteo wrote: 2021-04-20 06:49 I suspect that Spotify is not well implemented in the Dsm. I always found it awful.

I have also another doubt: can Spotify sounds different from Country to Country?
You pre empted my thoughts. I like spotify in the uk. I know I go against many, but prefer it to qobuz, pleased Fredrik feels the same.
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Re: Four years in the making

Post by anthony »

anthony wrote: 2021-04-20 08:15
Matteo wrote: 2021-04-20 06:49 I suspect that Spotify is not well implemented in the Dsm. I always found it awful.

I have also another doubt: can Spotify sounds different from Country to Country?
You pre empted my thoughts. I like spotify in the uk. I know I go against many, but prefer it to qobuz, pleased Fredrik feels the same.
I hope hi res Spotify doesn't spoil it.
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Re: AirPlaying Around

Post by Matteo »

Ron The Mon wrote: 2021-04-20 00:48 Matteo,
AirPlay or AirPlay 2? Are you sure?

Over ethernet? What Apple devices? What ancillary equipment?

Ron The Mon
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Hi Ron

My device is an iPhone 8, updated with the last iOS version available.

Cables are BJC Cat 6.

The router is https://tech.everyeye.it/articoli/speci ... 49070.html. No switches are involved.

Regards

M.
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Re: Four years in the making

Post by Matteo »

lejonklou wrote: 2021-04-19 20:46 Thank you all for your positive words!

Källa has an ethernet port on the back, which connects to your local network. There is no other input.
The output is analogue only, through one pair of RCA connectors. There is no other output.

Källa does not use Airplay™! Källa's communication protocol is however compatible.

The physical size of Källa is like a Boazu. The price will be around two Boazu.
So it has an internal DAC but no digital inputs/ouputs.

M.
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Re: Four years in the making

Post by Lego »

matthias wrote: 2021-04-19 11:10
springwood64 wrote: 2021-04-19 10:21 48000/24
These are the best sounding files.

Matt
Really!!??...Are those the files you listen to Matthias ?
I know that tune
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Re: Four years in the making

Post by matthias »

Lego wrote: 2021-04-20 10:00 Really!!??...Are those the files you listen to Matthias ?
Whenever I listen to a glorious recording like for example Archie Shepp "Let My People Go" I find it is 24/48.

The mastering engineer Brian Lucey also thinks it is the best for recording/mastering.

Matt
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