Preamp discussions (split from "Headphone amp?")

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Re: Headphone amp?

Post by matthias »

macrotech2 wrote: 2020-10-10 13:35 Same here. I'm now down to using the optimum single input on my Sagatun Monos. Is it potentially better than that?
Hi Fredrik,

I am really curious how the line out optimised version of Giella compares to your other pre amps.
Please, can you shed some light on this?
Many thanks.

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Re: Headphone amp?

Post by Lego »

matthias wrote: 2020-10-11 12:19
Lego wrote: 2020-10-11 12:11 But how will you know sound quality will have been sacrificed with remote if you have nothing to compare it with Matt?
I am sure Fredrik knows.:-)

Edit: BTW, I am happy without remote.

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Re: Milage Variances

Post by Lego »

Ron The Mon wrote: 2020-10-11 19:17 Pete,
It was a joke! Lego posted above you and got the humor. In fact, Lego outdid me one and said putting mouths places. That was funny.

I don't own any Lejonklou products myself (yet) and mattias knows this. I was told Fredrik doesn't like smiley faces, emoticons, GIFs, etc. cluttering the content on this Forum. How about this; from now on, if anyone on this Forum writes something that could be misconstrued, we put a double period at the end of that sentence.

So lighten up Francis, I mean Pete..

Lego wrote: 2020-10-11 12:23 Talking about putting mouths places Ron, did you ever buy the DAC you had on preorder
As a matter of fact, I did. No shop has been selling the GIGAPORT eX in the United States until just a few days ago. They did not send out any alerts as they cancelled all preorders. It was pure coincidence I checked on it just the other day. Also coincidentally, several months back, I was trading some parts at a local guitar store and saw a GIGAPORT HD+ for sale brand new for $70. It was traded in. I swapped an Ibanez guitar neck for it even-Steven.

I plan on recording and comparing the HD+, eX, and Mac mini headphone-out in the future. I will record both GIGAPORT products brand new and broken-in. I will send those recordings via private email to only you as I'm sure no one else on this Forum would be interested..

A GIGAPORT HD+ or eX will look really cool on top of a Lejonklou Giella. The combined musical reproduction would be frighteningly good. Or so I expect. It would be interesting to compare their headphone outs. I have a styrofoam head I use to store my headphones on and am thinking of routing then out to accept an iPhone to record sound comparisons.

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Re: Headphone amp?

Post by lejonklou »

macrotech2 wrote: 2020-10-10 13:35
tpetsch wrote: 2020-10-10 01:55 Reading this I can only imagine a project coming to light in the future similar to the "Giella+" where the "volume control driving a power amp" "uncompressed" takes precedence? ...The words "frighteningly good" has peaked my interest.
Same here. I'm now down to using the optimum single input on my Sagatun Monos. Is it potentially better than that?
No, Sagatun Mono is better.
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Re: Headphone amp?

Post by macrotech2 »

lejonklou wrote: 2020-10-12 19:06
macrotech2 wrote: 2020-10-10 13:35
tpetsch wrote: 2020-10-10 01:55 Reading this I can only imagine a project coming to light in the future similar to the "Giella+" where the "volume control driving a power amp" "uncompressed" takes precedence? ...The words "frighteningly good" has peaked my interest.
Same here. I'm now down to using the optimum single input on my Sagatun Monos. Is it potentially better than that?
No, Sagatun Mono is better.
Damn! :-)
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Re: Preamp discussions (split from "Headphone amp?")

Post by lejonklou »

macrotech2 wrote: 2020-10-10 16:02Agreed. I’d like to think that was possible - otherwise Sagatun and Boazu would have a rotary volume knob wouldn’t they?
matthias wrote: 2020-10-10 18:46 IIRC, Fredrik mentioned that the multiple inputs of Boazu do sound inferior in comparison to only one input with no switching. Further, IMO, the Giella case seems to be too small and lightweight for multiple inputs.
There are some interesting things to discuss here. It's about the two tasks of an analogue preamp: Volume control and input selection.

Regarding volume control, I am not sure whether the old fashioned analogue potentiometer (with a rotary knob) or the digitally switched resistor ladder (with either buttons or a rotary knob, and as a bonus remote control) is the ultimate solution. They can both be trimmed and tuned and where lies their respective upper limit of musical performance?

At first I was into potentiometers. Then I worked for a long time on digitally switched resistor ladders (which resulted in Kikkin and later Sagatun/Sagatun Mono) and they became a lot better than the potentiometer solutions. Now with Giella I'm back to a potentiometer, mainly because you're already bound by those corded headphones (so remote isn't necessary) and it's a lot easier to make it sound good when there's no digital circuitry involved. The mere presence of the digital parts requires a lot of tuning or it will have a "digital flavour" that kills the groove. There's also the possibility of a mechanical resistor ladder. I have one in a drawer that I call "the sausage". That's potentially better than the potentiometer, but now there's only a limited number of volume steps to choose between. Perhaps suitable for a very limited audience, like beck who only uses two (or is it three?) levels when listening. But for many others probably too extreme. Add to that the higher output volume level of Entity and the sausage is out of the equation.

My bet is that the digitally switched resistor ladders still have more to give. And most people prefer to have remote control.

The input selection is also tricky. I didn't invent the idea of the summing input of Boazu (all four inputs are always active and there's no switching involved - whatever sources you play will be heard), I got the idea from the Czechoslovakian company Rational Audio and their amplifier Au-ra Z1 that was released in the early 90's. It had summing inputs and when I experimented with the idea, it sounded great. The drawback is that as you connect more sources, the quality is lowered. One is ideal, two is still great, three is a little worse and four is stretching it.

On Sagatun and Sagatun Mono, I did at first just have four switched inputs. And then, typically, I tested adding a direct input and became troubled by the difference. The final solution became to add a mechanical switch that would let you use either just the single input OR the four switched ones (the direct input is still added, as it can't be switched off).

So, for those who only have one source, it doesn't really matter whether the inputs are summed like on Boazu or whether there's a switch that lets you turn off the other inputs, like on Sagatun /Mono. They're both ideal.

For those who use two sources, the choice becomes more tricky. Summed inputs like on Boazu will degrade both a little and equally much. A direct input and a switch, like on Sagatun, will be ideal for the first source and slightly degrade the second - and you will need to flip the switch to hear the second source. Or - if you don't flip the switch - it will degrade the first source a little and the second a bit more. Or you can skip the direct input altogether and degrade both inputs a little and equally much. This last option I am unsure of whether it's actually better than the summed inputs of Boazu. I think they're roughly equal.

For those that use three or more sources, summed inputs like on Boazu will degrade all and equally much. Switched inputs like on Sagatun will be preferable.

All in all, this boils down to how many sources you have. Simplicity speaks for the summed inputs like on Boazu - but the Sagatun solution always lets you have an ideal single source input, at the flip of a switch. I ran a poll a good while ago regarding how many sources people are having connected to their system and was hoping you would all reply one or two (vinyl and digital, what else could be needed, right?) But there were quite a few with more than that...

Your comments are, as always, highly appreciated!
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Re: Preamp discussions (split from "Headphone amp?")

Post by springwood64 »

Not all inputs are equal. I'm my case, I'm using (with Boazu)

1. Main source streamer. On pretty well all the time
2. For an hour every few days, the TV/Xbox etc
3. A few times a week, the turntable.

Switching between streamer and TV is done via mobile apps.

For the turntable I physically connect it to power and the Kinki for a session and then disconnect it.
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Re: Preamp discussions (split from "Headphone amp?")

Post by lejonklou »

Ron The Mon wrote: 2020-10-11 19:17 I plan on recording and comparing the HD+, eX, and Mac mini headphone-out in the future. I will record both GIGAPORT products brand new and broken-in. I will send those recordings via private email to only you as I'm sure no one else on this Forum would be interested..
This must be the silliest thing ever written on this forum. OF COURSE we all want to hear that comparison!
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Re: Headphone amp?

Post by macrotech2 »

macrotech2 wrote: 2020-10-12 19:14
lejonklou wrote: 2020-10-12 19:06
macrotech2 wrote: 2020-10-10 13:35
Same here. I'm now down to using the optimum single input on my Sagatun Monos. Is it potentially better than that?
No, Sagatun Mono is better.
Damn! :-)
Presumably because of the separated channels and power supplies. How about a dual mono Kikkin then? Would it need two separate boxes for optimum sound quality?

(And thanks for the detailed insight into volume control and source switching)
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Re: Preamp discussions (split from "Headphone amp?")

Post by matthias »

lejonklou wrote: 2020-10-12 23:31
Ron The Mon wrote: 2020-10-11 19:17 I plan on recording and comparing the HD+, eX, and Mac mini headphone-out in the future. I will record both GIGAPORT products brand new and broken-in. I will send those recordings via private email to only you as I'm sure no one else on this Forum would be interested..
This must be the silliest thing ever written on this forum. OF COURSE we all want to hear that comparison!
Ron was teasing.

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Re: Preamp discussions

Post by matthias »

macrotech2 wrote: 2020-10-13 09:19 Presumably because of the separated channels and power supplies. How about a dual mono Kikkin then? Would it need two separate boxes for optimum sound quality?
IMO, too complex.
Keep it simple:
One unswitched Input, no remote, no HP output, just optimised for line out.

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Re: Preamp discussions

Post by macrotech2 »

matthias wrote: 2020-10-13 10:33
macrotech2 wrote: 2020-10-13 09:19 Presumably because of the separated channels and power supplies. How about a dual mono Kikkin then? Would it need two separate boxes for optimum sound quality?
IMO, too complex.
Keep it simple:
One unswitched Input, no remote, no HP output, just optimised for line out.

Matt
But Fredrik’s already said that a Sagatun Mono sounds better, and I’d like a remote!
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Re: Preamp discussions

Post by matthias »

macrotech2 wrote: 2020-10-13 10:51 But Fredrik’s already said that a Sagatun Mono sounds better, and I’d like a remote!
What is your intended purpose? You have already Sagatun Monos.......

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Re: Preamp discussions

Post by macrotech2 »

matthias wrote: 2020-10-13 11:08
macrotech2 wrote: 2020-10-13 10:51 But Fredrik’s already said that a Sagatun Mono sounds better, and I’d like a remote!
What is your intended purpose? You have already Sagatun Monos.......

Matt
As everything now goes through my Vitus RD-101 streamer/DAC, I only need a volume control. So I want a better sound than Sagatun Monos from a more compact box with no input switching.
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Re: Preamp discussions

Post by matthias »

macrotech2 wrote: 2020-10-13 11:30 So I want a better sound than Sagatun Monos from a more compact box with no input switching.
Count me in!
And certainly much less expensive than SM.......
That would be quite an achievement!!!

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Re: Preamp discussions

Post by matthias »

macrotech2 wrote: 2020-10-13 11:30 ......better sound than Sagatun Monos.......
May I ask what you are missing?
Thanks

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Re: Preamp discussions (split from "Headphone amp?")

Post by ThomasOK »

matthias wrote: 2020-10-13 10:27
lejonklou wrote: 2020-10-12 23:31
Ron The Mon wrote: 2020-10-11 19:17 I plan on recording and comparing the HD+, eX, and Mac mini headphone-out in the future. I will record both GIGAPORT products brand new and broken-in. I will send those recordings via private email to only you as I'm sure no one else on this Forum would be interested..
This must be the silliest thing ever written on this forum. OF COURSE we all want to hear that comparison!
Ron was teasing.

Matt
His .. is too subtle as I was thinking the same thing. You know you can still use ;-) I have been known to. Fredrik just disabled the smileys due to emoticon abuse on the forum. He does use them in personal texts.
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Re: Preamp discussions (split from "Headphone amp?")

Post by maffe »

I would love to have a small power amp to match with a Kikkin or Giella as an “office system” ;)
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Re: Preamp discussions

Post by macrotech2 »

matthias wrote: 2020-10-13 16:55
macrotech2 wrote: 2020-10-13 11:30 ......better sound than Sagatun Monos.......
May I ask what you are missing?
Thanks

Matt
My current system sounds the best I've ever heard it, but you never know what you're missing till you hear something better.
(every Linn KDS owner should try and listen to a Vitus RD-101 by the way).
Plus, as space is at a premium, replacing two boxes with a smaller one would be an added bonus.
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Re: Preamp discussions

Post by matthias »

macrotech2 wrote: 2020-10-14 19:39 My current system sounds the best I've ever heard it, but you never know what you're missing till you hear something better.
Please, can you elaborate further, maybe via PM?
Thanks

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Re: Preamp discussions (split from "Headphone amp?")

Post by tpetsch »

lejonklou wrote: 2020-10-12 20:18
macrotech2 wrote: 2020-10-10 16:02Agreed. I’d like to think that was possible - otherwise Sagatun and Boazu would have a rotary volume knob wouldn’t they?
matthias wrote: 2020-10-10 18:46 IIRC, Fredrik mentioned that the multiple inputs of Boazu do sound inferior in comparison to only one input with no switching. Further, IMO, the Giella case seems to be too small and lightweight for multiple inputs.
There are some interesting things to discuss here. It's about the two tasks of an analogue preamp: Volume control and input selection.

Regarding volume control, I am not sure whether the old fashioned analogue potentiometer (with a rotary knob) or the digitally switched resistor ladder (with either buttons or a rotary knob, and as a bonus remote control) is the ultimate solution. They can both be trimmed and tuned and where lies their respective upper limit of musical performance?

At first I was into potentiometers. Then I worked for a long time on digitally switched resistor ladders (which resulted in Kikkin and later Sagatun/Sagatun Mono) and they became a lot better than the potentiometer solutions. Now with Giella I'm back to a potentiometer, mainly because you're already bound by those corded headphones (so remote isn't necessary) and it's a lot easier to make it sound good when there's no digital circuitry involved. The mere presence of the digital parts requires a lot of tuning or it will have a "digital flavour" that kills the groove. There's also the possibility of a mechanical resistor ladder. I have one in a drawer that I call "the sausage". That's potentially better than the potentiometer, but now there's only a limited number of volume steps to choose between. Perhaps suitable for a very limited audience, like beck who only uses two (or is it three?) levels when listening. But for many others probably too extreme. Add to that the higher output volume level of Entity and the sausage is out of the equation.

My bet is that the digitally switched resistor ladders still have more to give. And most people prefer to have remote control.

The input selection is also tricky. I didn't invent the idea of the summing input of Boazu (all four inputs are always active and there's no switching involved - whatever sources you play will be heard), I got the idea from the Czechoslovakian company Rational Audio and their amplifier Au-ra Z1 that was released in the early 90's. It had summing inputs and when I experimented with the idea, it sounded great. The drawback is that as you connect more sources, the quality is lowered. One is ideal, two is still great, three is a little worse and four is stretching it.

On Sagatun and Sagatun Mono, I did at first just have four switched inputs. And then, typically, I tested adding a direct input and became troubled by the difference. The final solution became to add a mechanical switch that would let you use either just the single input OR the four switched ones (the direct input is still added, as it can't be switched off).

So, for those who only have one source, it doesn't really matter whether the inputs are summed like on Boazu or whether there's a switch that lets you turn off the other inputs, like on Sagatun /Mono. They're both ideal.

For those who use two sources, the choice becomes more tricky. Summed inputs like on Boazu will degrade both a little and equally much. A direct input and a switch, like on Sagatun, will be ideal for the first source and slightly degrade the second - and you will need to flip the switch to hear the second source. Or - if you don't flip the switch - it will degrade the first source a little and the second a bit more. Or you can skip the direct input altogether and degrade both inputs a little and equally much. This last option I am unsure of whether it's actually better than the summed inputs of Boazu. I think they're roughly equal.

For those that use three or more sources, summed inputs like on Boazu will degrade all and equally much. Switched inputs like on Sagatun will be preferable.

All in all, this boils down to how many sources you have. Simplicity speaks for the summed inputs like on Boazu - but the Sagatun solution always lets you have an ideal single source input, at the flip of a switch. I ran a poll a good while ago regarding how many sources people are having connected to their system and was hoping you would all reply one or two (vinyl and digital, what else could be needed, right?) But there were quite a few with more than that...

Your comments are, as always, highly appreciated!
Thank you for taking the time to explain things here, I learned a lot about the design constraints you have to deal with and I find it all very interesting.

So, in thinking outside the box I had a "thought" concerning potentiometer type volume control with remote issues. Couldn't something be designed with a small self contained DC motor/controller -rechargeable battery operated- and a geared rubber drive belt wrapped around an external volume control knob completely separate electronically from a pre amp? Am I wrong in imagining that a system like this would only effect the control knob when momentarily demanded via remote than otherwise sit perfectly dormant with no effect at all on the sound/system? I have spent a few hours total hear and there Googling this idea thinking that someone must have tried this somewhere but haven't found much. The remote control car hobby market has come a long way over the years and many high quality parts do exist for example. ...I guess it wouldn't be the most attractive thing having a small box mounted to the side of your pre-amp but if it offers the best of both worlds I'd consider it.
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Re: Preamp discussions (split from "Headphone amp?")

Post by lejonklou »

tpetsch wrote: 2021-01-24 22:12So, in thinking outside the box I had a "thought" concerning potentiometer type volume control with remote issues. Couldn't something be designed with a small self contained DC motor/controller -rechargeable battery operated- and a geared rubber drive belt wrapped around an external volume control knob completely separate electronically from a pre amp? Am I wrong in imagining that a system like this would only effect the control knob when momentarily demanded via remote than otherwise sit perfectly dormant with no effect at all on the sound/system? I have spent a few hours total hear and there Googling this idea thinking that someone must have tried this somewhere but haven't found much. The remote control car hobby market has come a long way over the years and many high quality parts do exist for example. ...I guess it wouldn't be the most attractive thing having a small box mounted to the side of your pre-amp but if it offers the best of both worlds I'd consider it.
Very clever tpetsch!

A separate battery operated remote control servo unit would likely have zero impact on sound quality. If it can be made to work well, it could be a winner.

If you want it applied to Giella, it would have to be an external unit. Giella is quite complicated to open, so you'd have to visit a retailer to change batteries. Not too good. Better a similarly sized unit on the side and a rubber belt running between them.
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Re: Preamp discussions (split from "Headphone amp?")

Post by Spannko »

How about a long stick with a sucker on the end? It would probably need a funnel to guide the sucker onto the knob, a bit like the international space stations docking system. That’s proper rocket science for you.
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Re: Preamp discussions (split from "Headphone amp?")

Post by HernyB »

I am trying to build a remote control with a potentiometer on my Mark Levinson ML28. It is not yet working perfect but i am on it!
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