HAKAI NAS

A DIY digital music streamer with exceptional performance

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Re: HAKAI NAS

Post by Lego »

Sopper wrote: 2019-01-13 09:43 When I started with the HAKAI road trip, I had little to no knowledge of Linux.
I went straight for OMV for the NAS, because I was thinking in a traditional way; a NAS needs NAS Software with services, users, raid options, etc.

As of today, I understand Linux much more, and I agree with tokenbrit; all you need is Linux (Debian?) and a music server (minidlna, minimserver, twonky, etc.)

If you go OMV and have installed that, you can partition the disk with a bootable usb disk with gparted.
This will allow you to make the omv partition very small and use the remaining as new partition that can be used for storing music.

On a side note: my NAS with OMV has run from day 1 and all my music has been accessible within a millisecond, so it IS very stable and reliable.
I hope Debian + fileserver will be too...

I recommend everybody to try out the Bridge function and connect the NAS directly to the HAKAI, and the HAKAI only connected to the NAS; it gave me quite an improvement for local music playing
Without a router how can you control it Sopper!?
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Re: HAKAI NAS

Post by markiteight »

tokenbrit wrote: 2019-01-13 03:58 No problem, at all - we're all learning. Speaking of which, I just looked up OMV - seems like a heavyweight solution for storing music, designed for small offices with e-mail & file sharing in mind. That should not be necessary. A simple install of Debian plus MinimServer should suffice, unless you want your 'NAS' to do more than be a music library. Partitioning the OS drive & setting up for dual-boot should be 'relatively' straightforward, although I have not done it myself. I think I'd trust Debian to install successfully alongside Windows, more so than trusting Windows to install successfully alongside Debian.
You make a very valid point. OMV probably carries a lot of unneeded fat (but let's be honest now - who here doesn't?) that a minimal Debian/minimserver (or equivalent) won't be burdened with, but at this point that solution is just too far over my head to reach. OMV gives me an interface I can work with, rather than just a command line. It also appears to default to NFS, which Fredrik has highly encouraged us to try. If it isn't default it's relatively easy to implement. In Debian? Haven't a clue. So at least for now I'll give OMV a go...assuming I can get it to install (more on that below).
tokenbrit wrote: 2019-01-13 03:58 Two things to consider:
1. Filesystem: Windows uses NTFS; Debian uses EXT. This shouldn't be a problem on the OS drive as they'll each be on their own partitions and filesystem. Where it becomes a challenge is the storage disks - if the music server side of things is based on Debian (with MinimServer) then you'll likely want these to be EXT4 filesystem. Then you'll have to work out how to copy rips from Windows & EAC to an EXT4 filesystem. Bear in mind that music files tend to sound better the fewer times they've been copied, and you'll probably have to write or copy the files to the storage disks from Windows - the problem being that Debian/MinimServer is down while you're ripping as you can't have both systems running. I've used a Windows app to read from EXT4, but I don't know if the same or other apps can write from Windows to EXT, or what they'd do to the musicality of the files / file contents. You could just run the whole thing - media server (NAS) with EAC & MinimServer - on Windows as MinimServer is available on that too. Keeps it simpler, but...
Yeah...there's always something, right? I ran into this when I first ripped my music collection 12 years ago. No sooner had I given Microsoft the finger in favor of Apple OSX that I discover the best software for ripping (EAC) is Windows only! Nothing a bit of Bootcamp and a piece of file conversion software can't handle. I briefly wondered if the conversion process had any affect on the music files but dismissed the notion as there wasn't much I could do about it. Looks like I'm back in the same boat.
tokenbrit wrote: 2019-01-13 03:58 2. I believe the finding from the LS-NAS project was that the ripping hardware degraded the musical performance of the media server, so some were using an external DVD/optical disk plugged in for ripping sessions only. Again, this would likely mean a Windows only system, rather than dual-boot.
Both my cases (HAKAI and HAK-NAS) are driveless, so I would be looking at an external drive solution anyway. Why do you say that likely means a windows only system? What's preventing an external optical drive from working on the HAK-NAS booted into Windows?
tokenbrit wrote: 2019-01-13 03:58 I may well be making it more complicated than it needs to be - hopefully others will chime in with what they've done and what they found works best from rip to media server to music. The only things I have tried is ripping from a Windows machine, writing locally then copying to a share on a ReadyNAS running Twonky; later ripping straight to the ReadyNAS. Ripping I have tried EAC, dBpoweramp, and iTunes. I just recently built a NAS running Debian & MinimServer, taking a first copy of the files, using NFS, from the ReadyNAS to the Debian box. I haven't worked out what to do yet about future rips, but these will likely need to continue to be on a Windows system as I prefer using iTunes, and ripping to ALAC. I'm sure others will have different preferences & suggestions ;)
I've found software that will convert files from NTFS to EXT4, but that still means at least one rewrite before the music files arrive in their final resting place. It would be lovely to find a way to enable Windows to write directly to the NAS drives in the proper format but that's asking a bit too much, right?

I have tried installing both OMV and Debian9 by itself, but have run into one brick wall after another. I managed to make it all the way through the Debian9 install using Sopper's excellent step-by-step tutorial, but then I was left staring at a blinking cursor with no clue what to do next. Back to OMV.

OMV has been problematic. Most of the time the display is scrunched into a 2cm tall band across the top of my monitor. On the occasion where it displays properly I make it though the configuration steps to the point where it's actually installing the software. After about a minute it errors out saying one of the files is corrupt. I suspect the USB stick I'm using is toast. I'll have a new one in about an hour and I'll give it another go.

Thank you tokenbrit and Sopper for your thoughtful and considered feedback, as well as that of everyone else here. The wealth of knowledge and constructive ideas and suggestions found here never ceases to amaze me.
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Re: HAKAI NAS

Post by tokenbrit »

Yes NFS is easy to implement in Debian, but you need NFS on both sides: NFS share & NFS mount for the transfer. Unfortunately Windows does not support NFS except in the enterprise version.
I suggested Windows only to avoid the complexity of shares, and filesystem conversion, especially since MinimServer is available on Windows - that way you can rip, with external optical drive connected as needed, and run the media server on a single system without the headaches.
Sopper's Debian install guide was for the HAKAI music streamer. That's not to say that the HAK-NAS wouldn't benefit, slightly?, from an OS install without a desktop environment, but that's not to say that you can't make things easier for yourself by going with LXDE as an option - you just need that and the standard utilities if you want to get started. No need to use SSH if you don't plan to remote into the box or run headless - use the simple graphical install option for simplicity, at least to begin with.
EAC as the best ripping option? Is that from experience, or based on original recommendations from the forum that was? Curious what others are using here, but EAC was painfully slow for me - I preferred dBpoweramp, until ThomasOK put me on to iTunes & ALAC, and my ears agreed.
Btw, Debian and other Linux distributions can read from NTFS, so you could rip in Windows and copy from a Windows directory to EXT4 formatted storage drive if you want to work with dual operating systems, or 2 computers and an external hard drive.
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Re: HAKAI NAS

Post by markiteight »

tokenbrit wrote: 2019-01-14 04:08 Yes NFS is easy to implement in Debian, but you need NFS on both sides: NFS share & NFS mount for the transfer.
Careful...you're treading dangerously close to foreign language territory. Both sides of what? What is "NFS share" and NFS mount"?
tokenbrit wrote: 2019-01-14 04:08 Unfortunately Windows does not support NFS except in the enterprise version.
I suggested Windows only to avoid the complexity of shares, and filesystem conversion, especially since MinimServer is available on Windows - that way you can rip, with external optical drive connected as needed, and run the media server on a single system without the headaches.
And that's still an option. In fact I'll probably give it a try after wrapping my ears around OMV (assuming I can get it to work).
tokenbrit wrote: 2019-01-14 04:08 Sopper's Debian install guide was for the HAKAI music streamer.
I was aware of that little detail when I began the install process, but I wasn't having any luck with Debian's recommended install procedure so I figured I'd give it a whirl and see what happens. Alas while I was able to successfully complete the installation I didn't know what to do after that! But it was a good dry run for HAKAI's software install.
tokenbrit wrote: 2019-01-14 04:08 That's not to say that the HAK-NAS wouldn't benefit, slightly?, from an OS install without a desktop environment, but that's not to say that you can't make things easier for yourself by going with LXDE as an option - you just need that and the standard utilities if you want to get started. No need to use SSH if you don't plan to remote into the box or run headless - use the simple graphical install option for simplicity, at least to begin with.
Oops...you've done it...you've crossed over into foreign language territory and I haven't a clue what you're saying. ;-) LXDE? SSH (I keep seeing reference to this all over the place when remote interface is the topic, but nothing defining what it is or why it's necessary)? I do want to run headless, and that's an appeal of OMV.
tokenbrit wrote: 2019-01-14 04:08 EAC as the best ripping option? Is that from experience, or based on original recommendations from the forum that was? Curious what others are using here, but EAC was painfully slow for me - I preferred dBpoweramp, until ThomasOK put me on to iTunes & ALAC, and my ears agreed.
It was the best...12 years ago. Made dBpoweramp and iTunes look and sound like child's play. I also appreciated the fact that while it was occasionally slow (speed was dependant on the condition of the disc...the more beat up the CD the longer it took to rip) it managed to resurrect some discs that I thought were unplayable. But that was a long time ago! I also recall EAC and FLAC being the preferred ripping solution from a TuneDem perspective for a long time, but you're saying iTunes and ALAC is better? You just made the argument for ditching this Linux madness in favor of Windows much more appealing!
tokenbrit wrote: 2019-01-14 04:08 Btw, Debian and other Linux distributions can read from NTFS, so you could rip in Windows and copy from a Windows directory to EXT4 formatted storage drive if you want to work with dual operating systems, or 2 computers and an external hard drive.
Ok...so if I read that correctly that means I can install Windows on my NAS and rip to NTFS, but install Debian on HAKAI and the two will play nice?
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Re: HAKAI NAS

Post by Sopper »

Lego wrote: 2019-01-13 23:41
Sopper wrote: 2019-01-13 09:43 I recommend everybody to try out the Bridge function and connect the NAS directly to the HAKAI, and the HAKAI only connected to the NAS; it gave me quite an improvement for local music playing
Without a router how can you control it Sopper!?
Old:
Internet - NAS - switch - HAKAI streamer

New:
Internet - NAS - HAKAI streamer

HAKAI is connected to your LAN and thus internet via the NAS.
Playing local files from the NAS, goes directly to HAKAI; avoiding a switch and 1 cat cable.

https://wiki.debian.org/BridgeNetworkConnections
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Re: HAKAI NAS

Post by tokenbrit »

markiteight wrote: 2019-01-14 05:01 Both sides of what? What is "NFS share" and NFS mount"?
Both sides of the connection - both systems need to understand NFS for copying from one machine to another. Debian does; Windows only does in Enterprise & Pro versions, I believe... This isn't possible anyway in dual-boot as both operating systems are not running at the same time. (I've only used NFS for copying files from one machine to another - I don't know how it would work in the context of streaming...)

markiteight wrote: 2019-01-14 05:01 .. I wasn't having any luck with Debian's recommended install procedure...
This might be easier. Pick suitable options for time zone, system & account names, obviously ;) Ignore LVM, choose single partition. Uncheck Debian desktop environment and print server. Check ... LXDE

markiteight wrote: 2019-01-14 05:01 Oops...you've done it...you've crossed over into foreign language territory and I haven't a clue what you're saying. ;-) LXDE? SSH (I keep seeing reference to this all over the place when remote interface is the topic, but nothing defining what it is or why it's necessary)? I do want to run headless, and that's an appeal of OMV.
LXDE is a Lightweight Desktop Environment. (better to get you up & running :)
SSH is the way you remote into your system, using a Secure SHell.
You can run Debian headless; you don't need OMV for that.

markiteight wrote: 2019-01-14 05:01 I also recall EAC and FLAC being the preferred ripping solution from a TuneDem perspective for a long time, but you're saying iTunes and ALAC is better?
Try it & report back. Better still record clips & post them here :) I recall that EAC was supposed to produce better sounding rips with a certain configuration... I compared FLAC rips from dBpoweramp vs ALAC from iTunes and preferred the ALAC, but you may disagree. I'd be interested in your findings.

markiteight wrote: 2019-01-14 05:01 Ok...so if I read that correctly that means I can install Windows on my NAS and rip to NTFS, but install Debian on HAKAI and the two will play nice?
Yes. At this point, forget operating & file systems - you have the renderer (upmpdcli) on your streamer talking to the media server (such as MinimServer) on your 'NAS', controlled by your control point of choice, such as BubbleDS, or Kazoo.
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Re: HAKAI NAS

Post by Lego »

Sopper wrote: 2019-01-14 08:41
Lego wrote: 2019-01-13 23:41
Sopper wrote: 2019-01-13 09:43 I recommend everybody to try out the Bridge function and connect the NAS directly to the HAKAI, and the HAKAI only connected to the NAS; it gave me quite an improvement for local music playing
Without a router how can you control it Sopper!?
Old:
Internet - NAS - switch - HAKAI streamer

New:
Internet - NAS - HAKAI streamer

HAKAI is connected to your LAN and thus internet via the NAS.
Playing local files from the NAS, goes directly to HAKAI; avoiding a switch and 1 cat cable.

https://wiki.debian.org/BridgeNetworkConnections
Ok ,I dont have internet on my network
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Re: HAKAI NAS

Post by Sopper »

As long as you’re at the same lan it will work
Internet is not needed, just for Qobuz etc.
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Re: HAKAI NAS

Post by Lego »

Sopper wrote: 2019-01-14 18:09 As long as you’re at the same lan it will work
Internet is not needed, just for Qobuz etc.
I Dont understand when you say internet, is that modem router
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Re: HAKAI NAS

Post by Sopper »

Lego wrote: 2019-01-14 19:52
Sopper wrote: 2019-01-14 18:09 As long as you’re at the same lan it will work
Internet is not needed, just for Qobuz etc.
I Dont understand when you say internet, is that modem router
Modem, router, switch, anything that access your network
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Re: HAKAI NAS

Post by Lego »

Sopper wrote: 2019-01-13 09:43 When I started with the HAKAI road trip, I had little to no knowledge of Linux.
I went straight for OMV for the NAS, because I was thinking in a traditional way; a NAS needs NAS Software with services, users, raid options, etc.

As of today, I understand Linux much more, and I agree with tokenbrit; all you need is Linux (Debian?) and a music server (minidlna, minimserver, twonky, etc.)

If you go OMV and have installed that, you can partition the disk with a bootable usb disk with gparted.
This will allow you to make the omv partition very small and use the remaining as new partition that can be used for storing music.

On a side note: my NAS with OMV has run from day 1 and all my music has been accessible within a millisecond, so it IS very stable and reliable.
I hope Debian + fileserver will be too...

I recommend everybody to try out the Bridge function and connect the NAS directly to the HAKAI, and the HAKAI only connected to the NAS; it gave me quite an improvement for local music playing
Any chance of some clips to hear this difference, I'm sceptical
Last edited by Lego on 2019-01-19 17:09, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: HAKAI NAS

Post by lejonklou »

Lego wrote: 2019-01-15 11:20
Sopper wrote: 2019-01-13 09:43I recommend everybody to try out the Bridge function and connect the NAS directly to the HAKAI, and the HAKAI only connected to the NAS; it gave me quite an improvement for local music playing
Any chance of any clips to here this difference, I'm sceptical
Yes please, me too.

Furthermore, I don't understand where LAN is connected to this twin box Player&NAS. To a second LAN port on HAKAI or HAKAI NAS? No WiFi module on these motherboards that I'm aware of.
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Re: HAKAI NAS

Post by Sopper »

NETWORK (modem/switch/router/) > CAT cable > 1st LAN port NAS >2nd LAN port NAS > CAT cable > LAN port HAKAI streamer

Thus, the HAKAI is only connected to network/lan/internet via the NAS and directly to the NAS.
https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topi ... streaming/
https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topi ... ent-673011
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Re: HAKAI NAS

Post by lejonklou »

Sopper wrote: 2019-01-15 12:43 NETWORK (modem/switch/router/) > CAT cable > 1st LAN port NAS >2nd LAN port NAS > CAT cable > LAN port HAKAI streamer

Thus, the HAKAI is only connected to network/lan/internet via the NAS and directly to the NAS.
https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topi ... streaming/
https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topi ... ent-673011
I see.

In old experiments, this type of scheme sounded worse than with a switch in between HAKAI and NAS. But I'd be interested to try it again. Unfortunately I don't have any time at the moment, so a few clips would be fantastic.
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Re: HAKAI NAS

Post by FairPlayMotty »

I built a Hakai Server quickly and easily using the Snakeoil OS.

A primary consideration for me was the number of SSDs I could mount in a Streacom case. I bought a couple of SSD dual holders from eBay. They were built as adapters for 3.5" drives. I sawed the edges off them and mounted both on the cage.
I have since replaced the sata cables with 10cm ones to allow the case to more easily dissipate heat. There are four sata connectors on the motherboard but another SSD could be added via the USB header on the motherboard.

rps20190305_152944.jpg
rps20190305_152908.jpg
rps20190305_152829.jpg
Cheap and easy. And makes a huge improvement to the sound quality.
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Re: HAKAI NAS

Post by tokenbrit »

Confused. What "makes a huge improvement to the sound quality", and sound quality of what: Hakai itself, or Hakai over something else? Not sure what the improvement is between...
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Re: HAKAI NAS

Post by FairPlayMotty »

I had two Hakai players, same specs. Was using a Netgear ReadyNAS.

The huge improvement comes from the dedicated Hakai player picking up the music from the Hakai Server. It's the quality of the server compared with a conventional NAS that makes such a difference.
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Re: HAKAI NAS

Post by FairPlayMotty »

Just for testing purposes I have tried to see the limits of the Gigabyte motherboards and the number of SSDs they can support for a NAS or music server build.


Image


As you will see the motherboard has five SSDs attached. Number five is attached via the USB header on the board, using the following adapters:
rps20190513_174525.jpg
Screenshot_20190513-173738.png
Now I'll play music with them and see if the one attached via the USB header sounds significantly different. Note, I don't intend to use this yet but my ripped library is growing exponentially :)
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Re: HAKAI NAS

Post by FairPlayMotty »

No apparent difference in sound quality across a range of musical genres.
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Re: HAKAI NAS

Post by OscarH »

Basic question perhaps, anyway... I believe I see a variety of SSD’s in your pictures FairPlayMotty: does that mean that it’s not so critical exactly which type is used for music storage space?
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Re: HAKAI NAS

Post by FairPlayMotty »

OscarH wrote: 2020-01-12 17:38 Basic question perhaps, anyway... I believe I see a variety of SSD’s in your pictures FairPlayMotty: does that mean that it’s not so critical exactly which type is used for music storage space?
My experience has been there's negligible difference in the sound quality of the SSDs holding the flac files. I always use an Intel 320 for the operating system - there's a big difference there.
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Re: HAKAI NAS

Post by David Neel »

FairPlayMotty wrote: 2020-01-12 17:42
OscarH wrote: 2020-01-12 17:38 Basic question perhaps, anyway... I believe I see a variety of SSD’s in your pictures FairPlayMotty: does that mean that it’s not so critical exactly which type is used for music storage space?
My experience has been there's negligible difference in the sound quality of the SSDs holding the flac files. I always use an Intel 320 for the operating system - there's a big difference there.
I've not experimented - all the SSDs I've used have been Intel 320s. BUT: the recommendation for the LSNAS was Intel 320s for the data storage, and perhaps a compromise on the OS SSD.
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Re: HAKAI NAS

Post by FairPlayMotty »

David Neel wrote: 2020-01-12 18:19
FairPlayMotty wrote: 2020-01-12 17:42
OscarH wrote: 2020-01-12 17:38 Basic question perhaps, anyway... I believe I see a variety of SSD’s in your pictures FairPlayMotty: does that mean that it’s not so critical exactly which type is used for music storage space?
My experience has been there's negligible difference in the sound quality of the SSDs holding the flac files. I always use an Intel 320 for the operating system - there's a big difference there.
I've not experimented - all the SSDs I've used have been Intel 320s. BUT: the recommendation for the LSNAS was Intel 320s for the data storage, and perhaps a compromise on the OS SSD.
I've tried playing the same track via all the SSD brands and can hear no difference. The one time i used a very high quality SSD for the os it sounded audibly worse than the Intel 320 right away.
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Re: HAKAI NAS

Post by David Neel »

Interesting, it would be good to understand what's going on!
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Re: HAKAI NAS

Post by tokenbrit »

What interface are you using for the different SSDs? Speculation on my part, but if that interface isn't directly to the sata ports on the mobo, maybe it's not allowing musical differences between SSDs to show through... It would be good to get a better understanding of what is going on especially since your results are different to those reported previously.

https://youtu.be/Pj-qBUWOYfE
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