Playground for practical listening exercices

General HiFi discussion, using the Tune Method to evaluate performance

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by ThomasOK » 2019-11-05 21:07

Tendaberry wrote:
2019-10-31 14:00
In room the differences aren’t that small, but after listening to the clips I can understand the difficulty.
I have made three new clips, hopefully it will be easier this time. Two are the same cable, but in one I have done a little tweak.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/3xmlg8wgzb8xa ... 7.mov?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/jxlpiol2w7smz ... 1.mov?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/cioo62jp2ug7e ... 1.mov?dl=0
I was out of town for a couple of days listening to some live music in Toronto, Ontario, Canada so I'm just catching up. My preference is 1, 3, 2 with 2 a distant third. 1 to me moves better and I can hear what the bass is doing better. When I listened the first time I listened in order and I liked 1 a lot, I didn't like 2 much at all and when it came to 3 I thought this might be the best of all as the ramping up of the volume in the beginning was more obvious. But then I found the bass harder to follow than I had remembered so I went back to 1 and found that it just moved better and it was easier to follow the bass. I felt the interplay of the instruments and vocal was better on 1 as well.

I then read the other comments and the listing of what was what. I went back and listened to the three clips again and still heard exactly the same things I heard the first time. Clip 3 has something nice about it but I don't find it to be as musical as 1. It is quite possible in "relaxing" the cable you put some different stresses in it that will likely settle out over time. Then again something might be in a little different position after relaxing the cable. Also the object that is in the bottom right corner in 2 and 3 appears to be in the top left corner in 1. If the phone was inverted for clip one the change in microphone positions might make a difference as well.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by ThomasOK » 2019-11-05 21:26

lejonklou wrote:
2019-11-05 19:55
maffe wrote:
2019-11-04 19:58
tokenbrit wrote:
2019-11-04 14:58
I can hear why 2 might be preferred but it also loses something from 1... Hopefully Kaos can help you find the sweet spot somewhere in between - cats are good at that :)
Two more clips

First two same placement as last, Kaos did "help"...
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-Gn9 ... j-1280.mp4

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-gJb ... C-1280.mp4

2 cm change in position:
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-HbH ... r-1280.mp4

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-dcC ... F-1280.mp4

Kaos in control:
Image
I think the first position is better.

Is the second 2 cm further out (away from the wall behind the speaker) or further in? If any of those, I would try 0.5 cm instead.
I agree. I found it easier to hear the difference on the second track than the first, but the first position was better on both. I found it amusing that Kaos' tail was in time with the music on position one, second clip. :-)

I use a dog as a helper, she is equally effective. I was going to say "and equally black" but Bella is showing a bit of grey on her muzzle, as befits her 11 year age.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by ThomasOK » 2019-11-05 21:46

maffe wrote:
2019-11-03 21:41
Today I played around little more with speaker placement, Kaos did not want to help me today so I hope you guys can :)
I forgot to make a new "before" clip, so same music as last one.

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-Q6h ... B-1280.mp4

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-t4Q ... n-1280.mp4
I have a slight preference for 2, if preference is the right term. But I can sympathize with Spannko too. However, you really need to try clip 3.

Where is clip 3? Well, I tend to open these clips in multiple tabs so I can easily go back and forth. But these particular clips autostart playing. So after a while of listening to clip 1 I realized I was actually listening to a combination of clips 1 and 2 with a small time delay on two. I'm not sure it didn't improve things. You can try it yourself. Stop clip 2 and run it back to the beginning. Then start Clip 1 at the beginning and when the pause comes start clip 2. I find it actually kind of works with the music (but then I am somewhat in the Spannko ballpark on this piece) it also works well with the hearing protection sign!
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 » 2019-11-06 15:03

Russell K Red 50s vs Linn Katans. Single speaker dem. Dealer said the 50s are quite new and not fully run in yet.

Red 50s: https://www.dropbox.com/s/rkh0pgoqvifba ... 1.MOV?dl=0
Katans: https://www.dropbox.com/s/hztswug90dff3 ... 2.MOV?dl=0

And in the office vs Linn Keilidhs. Obviously not single speaker dem this time...

Red 50s: https://www.dropbox.com/s/f2th146yqwm7n ... 7.MOV?dl=0
Keilidhs: https://www.dropbox.com/s/zf9pi57hmd2iv ... 4.MOV?dl=0

And lastly, vs M109s streaming Tidal...

Red 50s: https://www.dropbox.com/s/1cm7anbo6sfyt ... 0.MOV?dl=0
M109s: https://www.dropbox.com/s/vh8rch4blgiri ... 9.MOV?dl=0

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by jewa » 2019-11-06 17:06

The M109s is much better. This is what musicality is all about. Red is different sounds all scattered in time, where as M109 is playing music.

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Matteo » 2019-11-06 17:54

Charlie1 wrote:
2019-11-06 15:03

And lastly, vs M109s streaming Tidal...

Red 50s: https://www.dropbox.com/s/1cm7anbo6sfyt ... 0.MOV?dl=0
M109s: https://www.dropbox.com/s/vh8rch4blgiri ... 9.MOV?dl=0
Hi

What did you put under the M109's between them and the furniture?

M.
LP12/Kore/Akito 2b/ARadikal/Adikt/Slipsik 7-ND5 XS 2-AK/1-A2200-M109 [Silver-K200]

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 » 2019-11-06 18:21

Matteo wrote:
2019-11-06 17:54
What did you put under the M109's between them and the furniture?
Just some rubber feet. I don't have any spare so just put a placemat under the RKs. I put some thin foam between them and the Keilidhs, for reference.

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by David Neel » 2019-11-06 19:06

For my ears, that's 3-0 to Linn. And a reminder how good 109s are.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by maffe » 2019-11-06 19:22

jewa wrote:
2019-11-06 17:06
The M109s is much better. This is what musicality is all about. Red is different sounds all scattered in time, where as M109 is playing music.
+1

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by maffe » 2019-11-06 19:34

ThomasOK wrote:
2019-11-05 21:26
lejonklou wrote:
2019-11-05 19:55
I think the first position is better.

Is the second 2 cm further out (away from the wall behind the speaker) or further in? If any of those, I would try 0.5 cm instead.
I agree. I found it easier to hear the difference on the second track than the first, but the first position was better on both. I found it amusing that Kaos' tail was in time with the music on position one, second clip. :-)

I use a dog as a helper, she is equally effective. I was going to say "and equally black" but Bella is showing a bit of grey on her muzzle, as befits her 11 year age.
I reverted back to the previous position after the “2 cm” clip (it was 2 cm further out) since I think it’s the better position.
Now tested 1 cm further out and 0,5 cm. I’ll re do it and make clips to post later!
Kaos like it better now, much more relaxed and sleeping in my lap enjoying Pink Floyd streaming for a change :)

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by AlbannachFE » 2019-11-06 20:43

Charlie1 wrote:
2019-11-06 15:03
Russell K Red 50s vs Linn Katans. Single speaker dem. Dealer said the 50s are quite new and not fully run in yet.

Red 50s: https://www.dropbox.com/s/rkh0pgoqvifba ... 1.MOV?dl=0
Katans: https://www.dropbox.com/s/hztswug90dff3 ... 2.MOV?dl=0

And in the office vs Linn Keilidhs. Obviously not single speaker dem this time...

Red 50s: https://www.dropbox.com/s/f2th146yqwm7n ... 7.MOV?dl=0
Keilidhs: https://www.dropbox.com/s/zf9pi57hmd2iv ... 4.MOV?dl=0

And lastly, vs M109s streaming Tidal...

Red 50s: https://www.dropbox.com/s/1cm7anbo6sfyt ... 0.MOV?dl=0
M109s: https://www.dropbox.com/s/vh8rch4blgiri ... 9.MOV?dl=0
Seems I'm in the minority, but:

Red 50s in clip 1 are better timed, more rythmic, expressive and engaging - Katans are coherent and fluent, but a bit bland - Red 50s for me.

Red 50s are very forward and aggressive (pehaps because they are placed rather higher than they shoud be, and are, of course, sat on top of the keilidhs, so not ideal); Keilidhs easier on the ear, and musically quite good, though trying to listen past the aforementioned aggression of the Red 50s, it's much closer than clip 1... hmmm, more listening required on this one, I think.

Red 50s are, again, better timed, more rhythmic, and make the music much more interesting and rewarding to listen to; Majik 109s are a bit meh, tbh. - Red 50s for me.

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Spannko » 2019-11-06 23:14

I quite like the RK’s too. They’ve got a very distinctive sound, like you say AlbannachFE, almost like Kans for the new millennium. It’s nice to hear new speakers which have a good go at playing music - it doesn’t happen very often! To be able to stand shoulder to shoulder with three of the best speakers Linn have ever produced is quite an achievement.

Thanks again for the comprehensive comparison charlie1 :-)

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 » 2019-11-06 23:27

Hope you all enjoyed listening to the clips.

I can identify with both camps. I like the RKs clear and lively sound. They seem to provide very little 'bump in the wire', taking less energy out of the signal than the Linn options. I guess this is related to their design and minimising any damping. Not sure I am particularly struck by better rhythm, not like the Shahinian Larcs that could really swing.

However, overall I'm really disappointed cos I thought they might play the tune better than this. I find all the Linn speakers make more sense of the music and I miss this when listening to the RKs. Like jewa said, the notes often sound scattered in time and don't quite appear when I'm expecting them. I was playing a Kate Bush song earlier and I enjoyed the energy and clarity but the song just didn't touch me as much as yesterday. I wasn't expecting to have my cake and eat it but I was hoping the RKs would be a better compromise.

I can also hear why AlbannachFE finds the Katans, and M109s in particular, a bit boring by comparison. I feel Linn has been getting more tuneful over their speaker generations but this has led to ever increasing levels of blandness for some reason, all the way from Kan 1 > Kan 2 > Tukan > Katan > M109s (not sure where 212s and Akudoriks fit in this). I know many will disagree but that's how I experience it. I hoped the Red 50s would bring back some Kan 1 life and sparkle whilst still making good sense of the music. Oh well.

If I lived in Sweden then I would be very keen to hear the T1.

Any experience of ProAc monitors here, such as Tablette 10?
Last edited by Charlie1 on 2019-11-06 23:34, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Spannko » 2019-11-06 23:33

Sorry the RK’s didn’t work out for you Charlie1. They sounded promising in the clips to me, but there’s nothing like hearing them in your own home with a variety of your own music.

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 » 2019-11-06 23:35

It's all good learning. Don't get me wrong, if Linn didn't make speakers then I think I'd be very happy with them.

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Re: Optimum House Wiring

Post by Spannko » 2019-11-06 23:40

I’ve made some changes to the power cables feeding my system. To avoid bias, I’ll describe the changes after everyone’s had time to listen and comment.



https://www.dropbox.com/s/h9cie51vqa068j5/E1.mov?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/0ft9ownsy8pxwzj/R1.mov?dl=0

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Re: Optimum House Wiring

Post by Charlie1 » 2019-11-06 23:54

Spannko wrote:
2019-11-06 23:40
I’ve made some changes to the power cables feeding my system. To avoid bias, I’ll describe the changes after everyone’s had time to listen and comment.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/h9cie51vqa068j5/E1.mov?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/0ft9ownsy8pxwzj/R1.mov?dl=0
Nice to have a clear favourite with a digital clip as, like beck, I sometimes struggle.

Much prefer E1. Enjoyed it and tempo seemed about right. Whereas, R1 sounded rushed, like they'd all had too much coffee, and I struggled to make as much sense of it.

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by David Neel » 2019-11-06 23:56

I prefer the second clip.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by tokenbrit » 2019-11-07 01:32

David Neel wrote:
2019-11-06 23:56
I prefer the second clip.
I'm with you. (sorry Charlie1 - maybe it helped that I had 3 coffees today :)

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by tokenbrit » 2019-11-07 01:42

Charlie1 wrote:
2019-11-06 15:03
Russell K Red 50s vs Linn...
I'm not the biggest fan of Linn speakers, generally, but I preferred them here... The RKs, as they been abbreviated above, sound a little too RauKous for my ears.

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Re: Optimum House Wiring

Post by lejonklou » 2019-11-07 02:44

Spannko wrote:
2019-11-06 23:40
I’ve made some changes to the power cables feeding my system. To avoid bias, I’ll describe the changes after everyone’s had time to listen and comment.



https://www.dropbox.com/s/h9cie51vqa068j5/E1.mov?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/0ft9ownsy8pxwzj/R1.mov?dl=0
I prefer the second clip (R1).

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by lejonklou » 2019-11-07 02:49

Charlie1 wrote:
2019-11-06 15:03
Russell K Red 50s vs Linn Katans. Single speaker dem. Dealer said the 50s are quite new and not fully run in yet.

Red 50s: https://www.dropbox.com/s/rkh0pgoqvifba ... 1.MOV?dl=0
Katans: https://www.dropbox.com/s/hztswug90dff3 ... 2.MOV?dl=0

And in the office vs Linn Keilidhs. Obviously not single speaker dem this time...

Red 50s: https://www.dropbox.com/s/f2th146yqwm7n ... 7.MOV?dl=0
Keilidhs: https://www.dropbox.com/s/zf9pi57hmd2iv ... 4.MOV?dl=0

And lastly, vs M109s streaming Tidal...

Red 50s: https://www.dropbox.com/s/1cm7anbo6sfyt ... 0.MOV?dl=0
M109s: https://www.dropbox.com/s/vh8rch4blgiri ... 9.MOV?dl=0
I prefer the Linn speakers in all three clips.

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck » 2019-11-07 08:21

Concentrating on the sound of the instruments only (Spannko clips) I think that the flute sounds weird compared to the first clip (less dense and together). That goes for the bass too.

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 » 2019-11-07 08:55

I listened again this morning thinking this might be one of those where I change my mind. However, I still hear it the same way. I think this is one of those rare anomalies where tune dem leads to split preferences. I keep looking out for them (probably too much) but this seems to be a genuine example - just like Radikal-1st vs Pre-1st.

My brain really struggles to comprehend R1. I just hear all the instruments shouting at me for attention and not making sense. Whereas, with E1 everything slots together and I can enjoy the music. Very strange how this occasionally crops up and members experience the same music in a different way. Is this left-brain vs right-brain listening? Who knows?

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 » 2019-11-07 09:54

Shame the RKs are not more tuneful as they do bring life and vitality to Kate's singing, just like the Kan 1. Forgive the odd recording technique - something I did the other day thinking I might sell them.

Kan 1: https://www.dropbox.com/s/zdekpd6b6mldo ... 0.MOV?dl=0
Red 50s: https://www.dropbox.com/s/f8we4idxjmxao ... 1.MOV?dl=0

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