Torqued equipment...
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Torqued equipment...
For 1.5 years now my LP12 has been continuously upgraded. The reason was initially a broken Norton power supply. Since I had not seen a dealer for a long time, I had to choose one. I also wanted to hear the actual status of the LP12.
The demo blew me away immediately. I had not heard LP12 playing that good so far. Ordered an L4, Kore and a Kandid (EkosII). The prefix was initially preserved, so that a new HiCap/DR was ordered too.
After a few weeks of hard abstinence from vinyl, listening music extensively to my partner and I mean 10-12 hours a day at the weekend and since I'm a newly-created retiree a week anyway. It quickly became clear what caused the L4 and the other stuff. At times we heard with tears in our eyes what music is capable of.
I also knew there had to be a significant difference between L4 and Radikal, Kore and Keel, etc. Another demo booked, where I took a Mana Reference table. And when the Klimax LP12 of the dealer played on it, it was clear what Radikal, Keel and Ekos/SE could do. I did not want to be gradually upgrade but immediately also because of the excellent offer. A superline was added and later the hicap was exchanged for a supercap. Peter Swan at Cymbiosis was kind enough to send me the right resistances and capacities in the Airplug.
But to the actual topic
During the past months, I found some information extremly usefull in this forum. Thanks to all contributors. From setup of the EKOS/SE to instructions for setting up the LP12, to cables and other information, to screws that are tightened with a torque tool. I was able to understand some of this very well and very quickly.
I want to express my thanks to ThomasOK for answering all my questions regarding torgue of LP12 and Radikal as well for providing the corresponding data. However, not only the data for setups but delivered links to the necessary tools. That is certainly not self-evident! Thank you very much Thomas!
First tested a very simple way, the locking screw of the tonearm, which showed a difference. Previously and that means in the 45 years LP12 this has always been adjusted by ear. However, it has turned out, with the torque value of ThomasOk it sounds better. And it was only a single screw! That gave a lot of room for speculations.
When all the data and tools were available, immediately selected the Akurate Radikal as the next victim. The LP12 should be done later, if the dealer wanted to check the setup. The AR confirmed the impression immediately, torque-adjusted devices change the sound positively! Amazing for me, which diligence work must be behind these values.
But it continues ...
Due to many descriptions regarding Klimax vs Akurate Radikal, called the dealer and a demo agreed. Much had I read about it, even contrary opinions. The dealer brought his own Klimax Radikal. Before connecting we played some tracks. Then the AR (adjusted) swapped for the KR (not adjusted) and it really only took a few bars of music to determine how big the difference actually is. It was a bit of a shock, as some claim there is no difference except in the case and in the boards installed the other way around. Next, transfer the torque values to his Klimax Radikal. The difference was not quite as significant as the Akurate yet perceptible which surprised even my dealer. He did not know that. If he doubted before, this setup convinced him.
After a reset of his KR the familiar symptoms, heights clearer, bass deeper, better transparency and more important musical drive! Well my dealer was sitting here and his feet and hands were on the move to the beat of the music. We had fun. Enormous addiction factor!
A Klimax Radikal was ordered. He left his demo until the installation of the new KR, which was done three weeks later. So I could calmly internalize the difference between the two devices.
When the new KR was installed, I was finally able to transfer all the torque values to the LP12. My thanks also go to the dealer, who met my request and at times even the values of the list had stated!
Setup was done, the same procedure as before. Listen with his KR (as before the new setup) and immediately my dealer said that's much more transparent, precise and musical than before. We listened to some vinyl. Then the new KR (not adjusted) connected and it was easy to hear the difference between both Klimax Radikal. After the adjustment of the new KR again, the difference was not quite as significant as the AR, but clearly listenable.
The stupid thing about the situation is now, I have nothing left where I can apply the torque great. Naim devices are, as I recently read, also adjusted with torque wrench. The briks was torgued be ears, stay the amps ...
All in all, I'm really happy. The upgrade was not cheap and the route really was not very direct. Nevertheless, it was the right way. Every piece of music clearly shows why musicians set their emotions to music.
Thats what I want… Thanks guys!
The demo blew me away immediately. I had not heard LP12 playing that good so far. Ordered an L4, Kore and a Kandid (EkosII). The prefix was initially preserved, so that a new HiCap/DR was ordered too.
After a few weeks of hard abstinence from vinyl, listening music extensively to my partner and I mean 10-12 hours a day at the weekend and since I'm a newly-created retiree a week anyway. It quickly became clear what caused the L4 and the other stuff. At times we heard with tears in our eyes what music is capable of.
I also knew there had to be a significant difference between L4 and Radikal, Kore and Keel, etc. Another demo booked, where I took a Mana Reference table. And when the Klimax LP12 of the dealer played on it, it was clear what Radikal, Keel and Ekos/SE could do. I did not want to be gradually upgrade but immediately also because of the excellent offer. A superline was added and later the hicap was exchanged for a supercap. Peter Swan at Cymbiosis was kind enough to send me the right resistances and capacities in the Airplug.
But to the actual topic
During the past months, I found some information extremly usefull in this forum. Thanks to all contributors. From setup of the EKOS/SE to instructions for setting up the LP12, to cables and other information, to screws that are tightened with a torque tool. I was able to understand some of this very well and very quickly.
I want to express my thanks to ThomasOK for answering all my questions regarding torgue of LP12 and Radikal as well for providing the corresponding data. However, not only the data for setups but delivered links to the necessary tools. That is certainly not self-evident! Thank you very much Thomas!
First tested a very simple way, the locking screw of the tonearm, which showed a difference. Previously and that means in the 45 years LP12 this has always been adjusted by ear. However, it has turned out, with the torque value of ThomasOk it sounds better. And it was only a single screw! That gave a lot of room for speculations.
When all the data and tools were available, immediately selected the Akurate Radikal as the next victim. The LP12 should be done later, if the dealer wanted to check the setup. The AR confirmed the impression immediately, torque-adjusted devices change the sound positively! Amazing for me, which diligence work must be behind these values.
But it continues ...
Due to many descriptions regarding Klimax vs Akurate Radikal, called the dealer and a demo agreed. Much had I read about it, even contrary opinions. The dealer brought his own Klimax Radikal. Before connecting we played some tracks. Then the AR (adjusted) swapped for the KR (not adjusted) and it really only took a few bars of music to determine how big the difference actually is. It was a bit of a shock, as some claim there is no difference except in the case and in the boards installed the other way around. Next, transfer the torque values to his Klimax Radikal. The difference was not quite as significant as the Akurate yet perceptible which surprised even my dealer. He did not know that. If he doubted before, this setup convinced him.
After a reset of his KR the familiar symptoms, heights clearer, bass deeper, better transparency and more important musical drive! Well my dealer was sitting here and his feet and hands were on the move to the beat of the music. We had fun. Enormous addiction factor!
A Klimax Radikal was ordered. He left his demo until the installation of the new KR, which was done three weeks later. So I could calmly internalize the difference between the two devices.
When the new KR was installed, I was finally able to transfer all the torque values to the LP12. My thanks also go to the dealer, who met my request and at times even the values of the list had stated!
Setup was done, the same procedure as before. Listen with his KR (as before the new setup) and immediately my dealer said that's much more transparent, precise and musical than before. We listened to some vinyl. Then the new KR (not adjusted) connected and it was easy to hear the difference between both Klimax Radikal. After the adjustment of the new KR again, the difference was not quite as significant as the AR, but clearly listenable.
The stupid thing about the situation is now, I have nothing left where I can apply the torque great. Naim devices are, as I recently read, also adjusted with torque wrench. The briks was torgued be ears, stay the amps ...
All in all, I'm really happy. The upgrade was not cheap and the route really was not very direct. Nevertheless, it was the right way. Every piece of music clearly shows why musicians set their emotions to music.
Thats what I want… Thanks guys!
Trust your ears
- Tendaberry
- Very active member
- Posts: 998
- Joined: 2010-08-30 16:08
- Location: Hamburg
Re: Torqued equipment...
Great story, thanks for sharing :-)
Re: Torqued equipment...
Thanks Hermann
May you send me via pm the torque values of the LP12 and the AR?
M.
May you send me via pm the torque values of the LP12 and the AR?
M.
Re: Torqued equipment...
Thanks Hermann, great insights. Would you please PM me your settings too?
Re: Torqued equipment...
The suggested Sturtevant Richmont CAL 36/4 seems to be unattainable in Italy.
Can someone suggests a similar alternative, including the kit?
Thanks
M.
Can someone suggests a similar alternative, including the kit?
Thanks
M.
Re: Torqued equipment...
There are no good alternatives.
You can find them on eBay, beware that old used ones can sometimes go bad, but in bulk they're occasionally dirt cheap.
Re: Torqued equipment...
They are made in USA. I had to get mine imported by the UK Agent. Took a couple of months in all but worth it. It’s a quality item just under £200 Sterling.
Re: Torqued equipment...
I found my Sturtevant Richmont CAL 36/4 after a longer search on e-bay for a very good price ($ 95 incl delivery) in excellent condition. The new price in Germany is over 350 euros!
It's worth watching the tool on e-bay and get informed by mail.
It's worth watching the tool on e-bay and get informed by mail.
Trust your ears
Re: Torqued equipment...
I once bought three used CAL.36/4 on eBay for less than $100. One was pretty worn but the other two were fine and measured correctly after being adjusted by ear (the tone arm height lock screw on Ekos 2 or SE can be used for this, as it's very easy to hear and once you find the optimal setting, you adjust the scale on the tool to 1.6 Nm + 1 step).
The last new tool I bought in Sweden was around €250. €350 sounds ridiculously expensive.
Re: Torqued equipment...
The Tool is really very expensive in Germany, sometimes even over 400 euros.
Interesting, as you describe it. Because my first setting was exactly the tone arm height lock screw. Started with the value of 1.6Nm +1 and varies up and down. But the recommended value was right. Therefore, my tool seems to work correctly.
Since I have enough parts for another LP12, of course, I'll check to what extent this is comprehensibly.
Interesting, as you describe it. Because my first setting was exactly the tone arm height lock screw. Started with the value of 1.6Nm +1 and varies up and down. But the recommended value was right. Therefore, my tool seems to work correctly.
Since I have enough parts for another LP12, of course, I'll check to what extent this is comprehensibly.
Trust your ears
Re: Torqued equipment...
I torqued my arm hight screw yesterday.
Really difficult to read the scale - it only works in adjusting the torques going from lower values to higher values.
Even than my tool seems to be +2 to 3 notches off and it feels like 1.6Nm is not really tight (but for sure holds the arm)
What I noticed in going from values just below the optimum to values just above the optimum in my case despite the musicality changes it also change in hifi terms from:
values just below optimum - bass is shy
optimum - bass is tight and snappy in a nice way
values just above optimum - bass is bloated
Is it save to use the tool to also loose the screw or shall I do that with another tool?
Really difficult to read the scale - it only works in adjusting the torques going from lower values to higher values.
Even than my tool seems to be +2 to 3 notches off and it feels like 1.6Nm is not really tight (but for sure holds the arm)
What I noticed in going from values just below the optimum to values just above the optimum in my case despite the musicality changes it also change in hifi terms from:
values just below optimum - bass is shy
optimum - bass is tight and snappy in a nice way
values just above optimum - bass is bloated
Is it save to use the tool to also loose the screw or shall I do that with another tool?
Re: Torqued equipment...
Apart from holding the tool under strong light and wearing the right glasses (if needed), I have another tip for how to most accurately read the scale of the Sturtevant Richmont CAL 36/4:
Rotate/click the tool until the scale you're reading (I assume that everyone is using the Nm scale as those are the numbers we share) is directly above the small black hex screw that locks the transparent plastic piece. Now read the scale.
On some of my tools, there's a slight variation in the reading of the scale if I don't follow this procedure. The likely reason is that the transparent plastic piece isn't sitting perfectly straight.
I am using the arm height lock screw as a reference point for my tools. If a tool is 2 to 3 steps off the 1.6+1 that my most recent tool shows, I loosen the black screw and rotate the transparent plastic barrel to trim the tool. The tools might still differ a step or two at the extreme ends of the scale, but at least they are all the same in the middle of the range.
I agree with your impressions of how 'too loose' and 'too tight' sounds.
Of course you can use the tool to loosen the screw, why wouldn't you?
Rotate/click the tool until the scale you're reading (I assume that everyone is using the Nm scale as those are the numbers we share) is directly above the small black hex screw that locks the transparent plastic piece. Now read the scale.
On some of my tools, there's a slight variation in the reading of the scale if I don't follow this procedure. The likely reason is that the transparent plastic piece isn't sitting perfectly straight.
I am using the arm height lock screw as a reference point for my tools. If a tool is 2 to 3 steps off the 1.6+1 that my most recent tool shows, I loosen the black screw and rotate the transparent plastic barrel to trim the tool. The tools might still differ a step or two at the extreme ends of the scale, but at least they are all the same in the middle of the range.
I agree with your impressions of how 'too loose' and 'too tight' sounds.
Of course you can use the tool to loosen the screw, why wouldn't you?
Re: Torqued equipment...
thank you for the tips
I thought I was reading somewhere that you should not use the tool to loose screws - maybe it was in the description of the Wera or the Wiha torque tools. I couldnt find the same statement in the Sturtevant user manual.
I thought I was reading somewhere that you should not use the tool to loose screws - maybe it was in the description of the Wera or the Wiha torque tools. I couldnt find the same statement in the Sturtevant user manual.
Re: Torqued equipment...
I’m not gonna go against Fredrik’s expertise on this specific matter, but in general it would be reasonable to assume “torque down” to be an erroneous method.
If a guitar string is tuned too high you first go slightly below the right note and then tune up. If a bicycle tyre is overinflated you let air some out and then pump back out for a better manometer reading.
Slight digression to things one might have assumed to be analogous...
If a guitar string is tuned too high you first go slightly below the right note and then tune up. If a bicycle tyre is overinflated you let air some out and then pump back out for a better manometer reading.
Slight digression to things one might have assumed to be analogous...
Re: Torqued equipment...
maybe I make an example what I meant and Fredrik answered:
imagine you have an arm hight screw which someone did „Linn thight“ of lets say 3Nm
would you use the torque tool to loose this screw or would you loose the screw with a normal screwdriver
and only use the torque tool as „measurement“ device to put it up at 1.6 +1notch
as Fredrik is using the tool for a long time without realizing a drift in values it seems to do no harm
maybe the other tools have a different principle
anyway but it should be stored in relaxed mode meaning turn the torque down after using the tool
open question:
very small changes in torque up: do you just reset the tool one notch up and just tighten the screw or do you loose the screw first and than tighten it (that was probably what Oscar meant) to overcome material friction.
imagine you have an arm hight screw which someone did „Linn thight“ of lets say 3Nm
would you use the torque tool to loose this screw or would you loose the screw with a normal screwdriver
and only use the torque tool as „measurement“ device to put it up at 1.6 +1notch
as Fredrik is using the tool for a long time without realizing a drift in values it seems to do no harm
maybe the other tools have a different principle
anyway but it should be stored in relaxed mode meaning turn the torque down after using the tool
open question:
very small changes in torque up: do you just reset the tool one notch up and just tighten the screw or do you loose the screw first and than tighten it (that was probably what Oscar meant) to overcome material friction.
Re: Torqued equipment...
You misunderstood what we were discussing. It was only about loosening a screw, not achieving any specific torque.OscarH wrote: ↑2020-02-17 20:46 I’m not gonna go against Fredrik’s expertise on this specific matter, but in general it would be reasonable to assume “torque down” to be an erroneous method.
If a guitar string is tuned too high you first go slightly below the right note and then tune up. If a bicycle tyre is overinflated you let air some out and then pump back out for a better manometer reading.
Slight digression to things one might have assumed to be analogous...
You are absolutely right that to achieve the correct torque, the screw must be looser than the torque you're tightening with. So you're always "torquing up".
Re: Torqued equipment...
The Sturtevant Richmont CAL 36/4 clicks in both directions. Therefore you can always try loosening the screw with it. If the screw is too tight to loosen, the tool will click. And you will need to either increase the setting of it, or change to a regular tool to get the screw loose.Defender wrote: ↑2020-02-17 21:51 maybe I make an example what I meant and Fredrik answered:
imagine you have an arm hight screw which someone did „Linn thight“ of lets say 3Nm
would you use the torque tool to loose this screw or would you loose the screw with a normal screwdriver
and only use the torque tool as „measurement“ device to put it up at 1.6 +1notch
as Fredrik is using the tool for a long time without realizing a drift in values it seems to do no harm
maybe the other tools have a different principle
anyway but it should be stored in relaxed mode meaning turn the torque down after using the tool
open question:
very small changes in torque up: do you just reset the tool one notch up and just tighten the screw or do you loose the screw first and than tighten it (that was probably what Oscar meant) to overcome material friction.
My experience is that the Sturtevant Richmont CAL 36/4 does not need to be stored in a relaxed mode. I have tested this by leaving two tools, both fixed at 3.4 Nm (that's pretty high, so the spring inside is heavily loaded), for about five years now. And when I compare them with my newest tool, which is stored in a relaxed mode between use, there has been zero drift. On both tools there hasn't even been half a step of drift (half a step is very little).
Regarding making small increments in torque, I find it perfectly reliable to just tighten with the higher torque. Even half a step is accurately evaluated this way. Just make sure it clicks several times. Then if you want to decrease half a step, you need to loosen the screw and re-tighten.
Re: Torqued equipment...
I now own three used tools. To test how far the values match, I turned screws in wood, e.g. with 3N and marked the screw head and wood carefully. The other two tools then adjusted to the same value and tried to loosen on one side, then tighten again. Two of the tools are actually quite identical, the third is slightly off. Certainly this is not a test for absolute accuracy, but it is meaningful enough.
Today I have contacted a calibration service in Germany and am waiting for an offer.
Should this be of interest here, I would be happy to pass on the information.
Today I have contacted a calibration service in Germany and am waiting for an offer.
Should this be of interest here, I would be happy to pass on the information.
Trust your ears
Re: Torqued equipment...
You can click two tools against one another by inserting a long 1/4" bit into both.Hermann wrote: ↑2020-02-18 13:41 I now own three used tools. To test how far the values match, I turned screws in wood, e.g. with 3N and marked the screw head and wood carefully. The other two tools then adjusted to the same value and tried to loosen on one side, then tighten again. Two of the tools are actually quite identical, the third is slightly off. Certainly this is not a test for absolute accuracy, but it is meaningful enough.
If you do it many times and count how often each tool clicks while adjusting one of the tools (keeping the other fixed), you can achieve a very high degree of calibration (to the tool you're keeping fixed).
I recommend only clicking in the forward (tightening) direction. Going back and forth is not as reliable, as there are often slight variations between each click. That's why we should always tighten every fastener with several clicks - the highest value is where the torque ends up.
Re: Torqued equipment...
Well, thanks for the tip Fredrik.
I should have thought of that too...
But this is exactly what this forum exists for.
I should have thought of that too...
But this is exactly what this forum exists for.
Trust your ears
Re: Torqued equipment...
thank you for the calibration tip :)
As my first Sturtevant ended up to be a PM version which has no scale I can now only use that one.
Just to be sure when you say „click“ ... there is at fist the release of the clutch and than a hammering noise (which you probably mean when you say click) I was worried having that hit on the screw because I was afraid it screws up the torque value.
But understanding you right that hammering noise actually sets the final torque value. That would make sense as that also would explain why even small changes of torque would be possible as this hammering overcomes the material friction.
As my first Sturtevant ended up to be a PM version which has no scale I can now only use that one.
Just to be sure when you say „click“ ... there is at fist the release of the clutch and than a hammering noise (which you probably mean when you say click) I was worried having that hit on the screw because I was afraid it screws up the torque value.
But understanding you right that hammering noise actually sets the final torque value. That would make sense as that also would explain why even small changes of torque would be possible as this hammering overcomes the material friction.
Re: Torqued equipment...
Wow! A lot of torque talk on my two days off (which I tend to take off the forums as well). Yes, I always set torque going in the up direction. So I loosen and retighten to try a slightly different torque. I also don't relax my torque tools and have no problem with drift. Inserting the long 1/4 inch bit and going to where there are an equal number of clicks from each tool is how I set my unmarked tool for 3.4 and how I calibrated three of Fredrik's drivers to mine. I always torque with at least two clicks but if the fastener feels as though it is still moving I go for several clicks to make sure it is set.
While you certainly can use the CAL36/4 to loosen fasteners, and I often do it, I will use a normal tool to loosen something that is up near 4Nm rather than wind my driver all the way up there if it is currently set at .8Nm or 1.2Nm as it is just less hassle. Just as an example.
While you certainly can use the CAL36/4 to loosen fasteners, and I often do it, I will use a normal tool to loosen something that is up near 4Nm rather than wind my driver all the way up there if it is currently set at .8Nm or 1.2Nm as it is just less hassle. Just as an example.
The LP12 Whisperer
Manufacturer, Distributor, Retailer and above all lover of music.
Manufacturer, Distributor, Retailer and above all lover of music.