Is aktiv operation best in all respects (same quality amp)?

[sunbeamgls]

helping zee with his picture :)

[matthias]

As you're on the Lejonklou forum, it would be remiss of me not to suggest that you first listen to a Lejonklou Tundra Stereo single wired passive in place of your bi-wired Linn amps. I suspect it would be significantly more musical. I'm not joking!

+1
Maybe an even better sounding solution would be to drive your speakers passive single-wired with your best sounding power amp and try a Lejonklou Sagatun Stereo preamp. Connect the analogue out of the Majik DSM/1 with the internal volume control disabled to Sagatun Stereo.

Matt

[Charlie1]

I quite like the modified look of the Kabers.

If you're listening to TV through the system then aktiv probably will make it more paletable. Sometimes mixing equipment from different eras doesn't sound quite right but that would mean looking at LK amps. Besides, you already have a modern source. Ideally, you could do with some spare funds so that you can try something new and then make your decision on what to sell. Good luck.

[Zee9]

Hi. Thanks for the pictures. At some point please help me understand how to upload pictures.

All of my equipment is from the s/h market simply because of budget reasons. The entire setup cost me under $3000.

I’ve managed to find some k600 already and was waiting to install the aktiv cards and then use the cable. They’re unfortunately factory terminated but 2 x 16’ long. The c5100 was a steal and hence I bought that. If my mdsm can take a set of aktiv cards then I could run the Kabers aktiv with the c5100 and the mdsm although I don’t like that sound when I tried it in passive tri-amped (my brother had borrowed my c3200)

I haven’t had the pleasure to hear any lejonklou amps and unfortunately know few audiophiles in the nyc area. (It’s on my list of things to do though)

Since I originally wanted to buy ninkas I do have the cards and the polymer bases for the ninkas already. Buying a pair of ninkas might be easier and cheaper than finding a second c3200/4200 charlie might be able to suggest if the ninkas sound better than the Kabers since I think he’s had both those speakers

In regard of the tweeters, I wrote to Oskar and asked his opinion of the tweeters. He said that if my ancient tweeters were still working fine the ow2-92 replacement would reflect mainly age and maybe a 8-10% improvement which is what I feel now. I have heard the 15/2 tweeters on my older keilidhs and feel the original d-20-lp2 tweeter that came with the first generation of Kabers is way way better. I also got the tweeters in a package deal with the cards so it barely cost me anything for a spare set of tweeters. The seller (a gentleman from the wam) said that they were a huge improvement on his aktiv Kabers over the 15/2 tweeters that he originally had)

There is a pair of c3200/d for sale at the moment in the US, but for the same price another seller is selling a pair of Klimax solos/non Dynamik and that’s more tempting than the c3200 pair. However that will mean no aktiv and I can’t seem to get rid of that itch since I’ve never ever heard any linn speakers aktiv.

Makes sense?

zee, you've already identified a key opportunity - to make the amps all the same. I did try mixing Akurate and Majik amps when I had active Majik 140s, preferring all Majik to the mixed amps.
Finding a used C3200 is a challenge as they are few and far between. It may be a better plan to make your way towards 4200 and 2200 Dynamik amps. Perhaps sell what you have an go with a single 6100 Dynamik in the meantime until you can find all the Akurate level amps you wish to get to.
Look for some K600 cable too, if you can find some.
I'm not sure how the OW tweeter compares to 015 variants in terms of sensitivity - it could be that it has changed the balance between tweeter and mid-bass drivers, so experiment with tweaking the tweeter levels - there is a small adjuster behind a little black plastic cap next to each channel on the rear of your amps. Make sure they're all at the mid position as the starting point and go from there, changing only the tweeters, one step at a time and leave them for a few days before tweaking any further.

[Zee9]

Matt,

I did try the Kabers initially with the c3200 bi-wired but that was at least 6 months ago and it wasn’t linn speaker cable. I should maybe try them single wired with just the k20 before I start removing the crossovers etc.

As you're on the Lejonklou forum, it would be remiss of me not to suggest that you first listen to a Lejonklou Tundra Stereo single wired passive in place of your bi-wired Linn amps. I suspect it would be significantly more musical. I'm not joking!

+1
Maybe an even better sounding solution would be to drive your speakers passive single-wired with your best sounding power amp and try a Lejonklou Sagatun Stereo preamp. Connect the analogue out of the Majik DSM/1 with the internal volume control disabled to Sagatun Stereo.

Matt

[Charlie1]

Since I originally wanted to buy ninkas I do have the cards and the polymer bases for the ninkas already. Buying a pair of ninkas might be easier and cheaper than finding a second c3200/4200 charlie might be able to suggest if the ninkas sound better than the Kabers since I think he’s had both those speakers

Sorry, I've not heard Kabers.

Aktiv Ninkas with 4200/D was very nice and a neat solution. I think I had a KK and high spec LP12 at the time.

Aktiv Ninkas with 6100/D was a little rough in the treble. I don't think this is an issue with Majik speakers though, due to the 2K array.

[matthias]

I did try the Kabers initially with the c3200 bi-wired but that was at least 6 months ago and it wasn’t linn speaker cable. I should maybe try them single wired with just the k20 before I start removing the crossovers etc.

The experience of Fredrik and other members of this forum is that in a passive system single amping and single wiring is the most musical sounding.
IMO, if you want to spend a certain amount of money an optimised passive system will outperform an active one because you can spend more money on components with a higher rank in the hierarchy according to the Source First principle.

https://www.lejonklou.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=13

Matt

[sunbeamgls]

As you're on the Lejonklou forum, it would be remiss of me not to suggest that you first listen to a Lejonklou Tundra Stereo single wired passive in place of your bi-wired Linn amps. I suspect it would be significantly more musical. I'm not joking!

I suspect it will not good be a good match with Kabers. They're current hungry and even with a Klout they're a little under-whelming in passive form.

[sunbeamgls]

I did try the Kabers initially with the c3200 bi-wired but that was at least 6 months ago and it wasn’t linn speaker cable. I should maybe try them single wired with just the k20 before I start removing the crossovers etc.

The experience of Fredrik and other members of this forum is that in a passive system single amping and single wiring is the most musical sounding.
IMO, if you want to spend a certain amount of money an optimised passive system will outperform an active one because you can spend more money on components with a higher rank in the hierarchy according to the Source First principle.

https://www.lejonklou.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=13

Matt

This is an interesting one. One could argue that putting the crossovers in front of the amps, they become something that's earlier in the hierarchy and therefore more important than the amps. I'm not saying that's right, but active is a different system architecture and therefore may have a different hierarchy. Within the Linn family I think you have to go 2 rungs up for passive to better active (i.e. Twin/D passive outperforms Majik active, but Akurate passive doesn't outperform Majik active).

On your first point, I think its more correct to say "the experience of Fredrik and some other members of this forum... etc."

Things must have moved on from the earlier comments from Fredrik and TOK on the first page of this thread https://www.lejonklou.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=669 where active is praised. But it is 9 years ago!

[sunbeamgls]

Hi. Thanks for the pictures. At some point please help me understand how to upload pictures.

I went to your post on the Linn systems Wam thread. On the image I right clicked then selected "copy image location"

Then, in the post here, I clicked on the image icon at the top of the post. This inserts the HTML tags for an image then just paste the link from the Wam between the ] and [ bracket in the middle of the HTML tags.

[hcl]

Spec sheet says they go down to 65Hz Aktiv but only 72Hz passive?

Yes, these are probably right. But I presume it's the -3dB figure, which shows where they begin to roll off. The aktiv 109's roll off steeply in the lowest bass, where for instance Ninka will be more flat and let you hear more of that lowest bass.

Would you say passive 212s are massively better then passive 109s or just quite a lot? Is it the midband where 212s would excel over 109s - they have a dedicated mid don't they?

Ouch. I can't quantify this, you'll have to listen. The 3K array of the 212 and 242 is a lot better, yes. It has a big midrange dome with very nice qualities.

212 could be my next speaker, I like the look of them with black arrays. But I don't like the look of the stands, that has kept me away from them. I even doubt that type of stand sounds best, I suspect it was chosen because they were told to make a "one pillar design".

An interesting discussion, with a number of layers to it. The pros and cons of low frequency extension is one, 2k, 3k, old Linn tweeter speakers and the difference between the generations as well as the difference between gen I and gen II 3k-speakers and finally the question of passive vs. active filtered speaker systems. I’ll write some of my personal reflections with reference to the system we have been using for the last ten years.

My take on passive vs. active have allways been that the active (especially Linn-)systems are less muffled (more resolving to speak hifi-terms). The passive systems tend to sound a tad sharper, faster/brighter and immediate (in the meaning, different stuff being played at the same time is more difficult to hear as different sounds in passive mode compared to active mode) where the actives tend to separate different sounds. A poorly optimized and/or with a not good enough source active system will demonstrate this in a bad way while a the same set-up, properly adjusted/optimized and with good enough source feeding it may present itself completely different.

On the different speaker generstions topic I have a soft spot for the organicness of the old tweeter speakers. The old generstion speakers also had some serious limitations that especially the 3k does not share. The old tweeter speakers (even back to Kan, Isobarik) to mee always gave the organic presentation and activation pleasently washed away some of the ugliness of that. The passive 3k speakers initially (gen I, less so with the gen II) had a sound somewhat similar to the active dome tweeter speakers, but especially with the gen II 3k-speakers also giving me some kind of uneese compared to well set-up active systems (maybe it is the incoherence between the frequency bands you sometimes refer to as a ”feature” of the 3k-array?). The 2k-speakers do the work, at a lower price point, but have rather obvious limitations in the mid-range (and for the 109s the non existent low frequency extension). Good speakers for the price non the less.

I use gen I 212 actively driven by 2x2250 and 4 channels of Majik (Dynamik), supported by an K345 in the low end. Admittedly an odd combo, but it really works. With the optimum placement of the speakers the system is very musical. Not the most resolving, but musically satisfying in way few systems are. The integration between the sub and the main system gives a slight build-up in the cross over region between the two, but any tampering with that have had detrimental effects on the musical aspects of the presenation so I live with that. What the system also show is the effect of adding a sub to an otherwise good sounding system. The thing is that the sound with or without the sub is very similar (sound-vice or in hifi terms, extremely similar in character). However, without the sub the system lacks the last bit of timing and rythmic impact where all snaps in place with the sub re-connected. One other observation is that the accuracy in spekar placement (especially the distance between the the speakers and the back wall) is extremely important, down to to 1/10-ths of mm. 0.5 mm offset of the sub is rather obvious. The sub also makes itself ”heard” on organ recordings and such, but otheriwse it is kind of non existent in the sound. (apart from how it affects the timing of especially percussion instruments).

In 212 (or 242 for that matter) I am still not sure I prefer the gen II 3k vs. the first gen 3k. More hifi -yes- and more resolution - maybe, but better musically? I have heard passive Akubarik a lot better than the gen II 3k 242, but they differ in many ohter aspects too from each other so... I have not compared passive Akudorik to 212, so can not comment on that apart that I have heard Exakt Akudorik sounding very good at a number of times. Not compared them head to head at home though.

[Spannko]

Thanks hcl. Excellent post and very interesting.

I had passive Akudoriks with 2200 and the result was pretty disappointing. It didn’t sound like the 2200 was capable of driving the speakers - the bass in particular really struggled to play in tune. I upgraded to a Klimax Twin which I thought would sort the problem out, but to my surprise it was only slightly better than the 2200 - slightly better timing, better hf resolution, slightly better lf resolution, but still struggled to drive the speakers properly. Not wanting to give up on the Akudoriks I went Aktiv with Exakt. Even with Majik/Akurate hybrid amps (built into the Dorik stands), the result was way better than passive with Klimax Twin in every respect. It was more tuneful with better timing, and the sound improved considerably - tighter, deeper, better controlled bass. More open midrange with great differentiation between the elements of the sound, smoother and more detailed hf. Simply better - no contest.

However, as others have said, they have the potential to sound pretty poor too. Like a Ferrari not firing on all cylinders with under inflated tyres, everything has to be tuned to the max to make them sing. Spend time optimising mains power, equipment supports, Ethernet cables, speaker positioning etc and they reward with with a musical performance which I genuinely feel can better many analog systems - even some I’ve heard fronted by lp12s (and I really like the LP12 btw!)

EDIT: I’ve got a feeling that what makes the Akudoriks work so well is because all the amplifiers are contained in a pretty controlled environment, much like a good integrated amp compared to separates - maybe not as impressive sounding, but often more coherent and musical. Similar to what ThomasOK found with his ATCs I guess.

[Zee9]

A big surprise: we spent the last few days running the Kabers just of the Akurate c3200 amp on single k20 wires. 2 channel stereo setup.

To our surprise even though the frequencies are less detailed(smaller sound) the single wire setup outperforms the tri-wire set up with 6 channels at lower and louder volume in musicality. Everything just fits.

On the 6 channel test we found the bass to be tighter, the treble to be too high (can easily be reduced from behind via the channel gain) much larger sound but less musical.

We used the lejonklou tune method for an A-A-B comparison to get this result. I’ve been told aktiv makes for an even more detailed sound (much bigger sound)

Now I’m concerned as aktiv maybe too much (too big a sound) for our small room of 25 sq. M (270sqft. )

I’m sure everything will need to be readjusted. Especially levels

[Geoff]

While no doubt this post is self serving Zee, there seems to be a consensus around these parts that one box aktiv works quite nicely, have you thought about my well priced c6100D? I think you have all kardz needed, and could jump right in with a lower box count, more coherence, and money in your jeans once you've sold your existing amps.

I checked his latest videos and couldn't see any Linn stuff in his jumble of kit, so I think not, but you aren't the YouTube headphone review phenom zreviews are you?

[Zee9]

Update: had some free time yesterday so took the speakers aktiv and installed the treble cards in the c3200 and the mid/bass cards in the c5100. It sounds similar to tri-amped power but all knit up like the c3200. It’s going to take me a few days to re-adjust the speakers etc. they’ve already moved apart another 5” and almost an additional 6” from the front wall. I re-watched “Arrival” yesterday and the sound is a major improvement to passive for a at least movies so far. I think for the stereo music listening experiences I still need to adjust more but I am glad I did the whole aktiv thing.

I think if I do add another amp it’s going to be to bring the mid/bass to Akurate level amplification.

Geoff - I’m not reviewer on YouTube and all my equipment is linn except my blue ray player which I still need to connect.

[donuk]

Having tried various ways of wiring speakers and amplifiers in my home over the years, and hearing some of the top Linn systems in dealers' audition rooms and shows, I must concur with Matthias when he says "passive system single amping and single wiring is the most musical sounding".

I am not sure why this should be - I hate the idea of high current audio signals fighting their way round clumsy chokes, huge capacitors and imperfect resistances in speaker cross-overs. We are taught from the day we are issued with our hair shirts and maps of the flat earth that all tone controls are bad. But to my ears the brutal tone controls of speaker cross-overs have yet to be improved upon.

Donuk rainy downtown York

[matthias]

But to my ears the brutal tone controls of speaker cross-overs have yet to be improved upon.

Donuk,
yes and I prefer the simplicity of two-way speakers.
Regarding the cross-over I believe the best design is a series filter a la Klangedang but such a design is not always applicable.
Anyway, IMO a passive two-way speaker like the JBL3677 (or Klangedang) is an excellent instrument for a set-up according the Source First principle.

Matt

[Sound Hound]

I use gen I 212 actively driven by 2x2250 and 4 channels of Majik (Dynamik), supported by an K345 in the low end. Admittedly an odd combo, but it really works. With the optimum placement of the speakers the system is very musical. Not the most resolving, but musically satisfying in way few systems are. The integration between the sub and the main system gives a slight build-up in the cross over region between the two, but any tampering with that have had detrimental effects on the musical aspects of the presenation so I live with that. What the system also show is the effect of adding a sub to an otherwise good sounding system. The thing is that the sound with or without the sub is very similar (sound-vice or in hifi terms, extremely similar in character). However, without the sub the system lacks the last bit of timing and rythmic impact where all snaps in place with the sub re-connected. One other observation is that the accuracy in spekar placement (especially the distance between the the speakers and the back wall) is extremely important, down to to 1/10-ths of mm. 0.5 mm offset of the sub is rather obvious.

With respect, 0.5mm? - really?! - I can barely even see 0.5mm let alone envisage hearing the difference half a millimetre might make !!

[teatime]

With respect, 0.5mm? - really?! - I can barely even see 0.5mm let alone envisage hearing the difference half a millimetre might make !!

I can't see music at all! ;-)

At 1000 Hz, the difference in wavelength between two whole notes is about 2 cm. At 2000 Hz, it's about 1 cm. It doesn't seem unlikely you could hear differences in tuning that corresponds to a fraction of a millimeter in wavelength. And I believe what you are doing when moving speakers around is basically tuning the room, optimizing the interaction of the sound source with the acoustics of the room.

That said, I've owned a K345.. I have no idea how HCL manages to move it with sub-mm precison. As you said, that's hard to see. And do.

[hcl]

... I have no idea how HCL manages to move it with sub-mm precison. As you said, that's hard to see. And do.

Years of practice :-) and a well defined way of checking the position.

[Willa]

Very interesting discussion, may it keep going.
My experience with active v passive particularly regarding Espeks, firstly with a 2250 , single then triple 2250 passive then triple 2250 aktive nivarna!. Then klimax twin passive better.... then three twins ... passive ... nirvana! Then three twins active. Awesome then Klimak Solo passive. No need to progress further it’s properly musical. Enjoy the journey and debate.
Cheers,
Willa

[beck]

So what is the point using more than one amp or going active unless you have the best amp in the world now and forever?

[matthias]

Very interesting discussion, may it keep going.
My experience with active v passive particularly regarding Espeks, firstly with a 2250 , single then triple 2250 passive then triple 2250 aktive nivarna!. Then klimax twin passive better.... then three twins ... passive ... nirvana! Then three twins active. Awesome then Klimak Solo passive. No need to progress further it’s properly musical. Enjoy the journey and debate.
Cheers,
Willa

+1
Congrats Willa,
you have my dream system!

Matt

[ThomasOK]

So what is the point using more than one amp or going active unless you have the best amp in the world now and forever?

Essentially no point if you are looking for the most musical system. The even more problematic question is that you would also need an electronic crossover that is as or more musical than the best amps yet works with your speakers. In most cases good luck with that.

Of course it would also need to be fronted by the best source and preamp(s). Factors which turned this previous active speaker devotee to passives.

[Rutger]

Some tweeters can sound more musical when they are driven from a high impedance amplifier in active mode.
That means, putting a resistor about 3,3 ohms in series with the + connection of the tweeter can bring musical benefits.
The proof is in the listening. Ofcourse you have to compensate the gain so the tweeter sounds exactly as loud.

The reason that some loudspeakers, driven passive can sound a bit more musical in some cases is that they almost always have a resistor mounted before the tweeter.

If you like to experiment- try it. In this way, you can combine the benefits of passive and active mode.
With the resistor, the small voicecoil in the tweeter is sharing the upbuilding heat with the resistor.