Is aktiv operation best in all respects (same quality amp)?

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Charlie1
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Post by Charlie1 »

Made all the changes as per Fredrik's post and re-tuned/re-levelled the Ninkas (no 109s sat on top either.) I cannot be sure cos last time the system was aktiv with Ninkas it was in a different room (a much better sounding room), but my initial hunch is that it's more musical now. However, I also got the feeling that whatever it is I find better passive is still missing aktiv, but I will not make any firm judgement until I convert the Ninkas back to passive.

As an aside, I miss the 109s already even though the Ninkas are back to aktiv so this has been a useful process to make my mind up on which to keep - Ninkas just sound boring, diffuse and a little shabby/gritty. Now that the passive 109s are beginning to burn in they are indeed more tuneful (especially the bass) than aktiv Ninkas and that's when just sat on top, so look forward to hearing them with proper stands, tuned, and maybe aktiv too :D
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Post by lejonklou »

I know the feeling, Charlie.

The 109's are far from full range and their lowest bass is completely missing instead of just weaker, as in many other speakers. But it's hard to go back once you get used to the 2K array. It's really good.

There are things I miss with my Espeks, but musically I find the 109's simply better. Considering the price, they're fantastic!

Interestingly, the aktiv version of 109 is even more cut off in the lowest bass. Probably this makes them more musical, but there's always a risk you will start thinking about a subwoofer... I haven't combined 109's with a sub yet, looking forward to the first installation of that kind.
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Post by Music Lover »

ThomasOK wrote:I have to say that I have a hard time listening to even the best passive systems and speakers without feeling like I am missing something.
Agree.
ThomasOK wrote: It may be that I tend to listen at what is referred to as "realistic" listening levels (read LOUD)! And at decent listening levels I am almost always aware of some compression of dynamics that I equate to the passive crossovers saturating.

That said I also find active systems to be more enjoyable at low levels as well. Indeed I am surprised at the comment that passive might be less fatiguing as I have always found the opposite. Active systems to me have always been less fatiguing and have allowed me to get into the music more easily.
Yes, passive systems has a volume setting that is "best", but active systems sound great on all listening levels.
The only speaker that is close to an active system is Komri.
Better passive than all other active systems (I heard) regarding all aspects but still a tad less dynamic compared with Keltik/active Isobarik. On the other hand Komri is a LOT more controlled in the bass.

Great post Thomas! Even if I just quoted a part of it, the rest is hot stuff as well.


Regarding Klimax 350A, heard two pairs the other week and wasn't impressed (again!) Heard many different pairs in different systems/rooms and IMHO they lack slam/dynamics and are musically muffled.
Using same dynamik'ed KDS/KK, I actually preferred 2200/D +242mk1.
Twin+same 242s was less good than with 2200/D, but still better than 350A.
Like to hear K350A with all internal cables addressed!!
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Post by Charlie1 »

Converted Ninkas back to passive. I didn't spend much time re-tuning so they are a little disadvantaged to Aktiv, but that's the same as last time anyway.

Mmm - this optimising of aktiv cards and using ICs on channels 1 and 6 has complicated matters. Aktiv did sound more 'right' and 'together' then before and I'm struggling (depsite trying HARD) to find passive any better in the cohesiveness department, so maybe it was all down to my aktiv setup after all :evil: I will keep listening though and haven't given up yet and maybe there is still something about the compactness of the passive soundstaging I like - more focussed - but clutching at straws now to be honest. Strange...I feel I've been robbed of something when in fact I should be pleased - I am pleased really :?
Thanks to all concerned for helping out, especially Fredrik's clear instructions.

One last observation - Ninkas aren't bad passive are they. Always read people think aktiv is a must for Ninkas/Katans cos they respond so well. Yeah, you get the whole wall of sound thing and better musicality etc, but my expectations were that they were broken passive and I don't think this is the case at all. I do recall Fredrik's comments about his return to passive and the LP12 still sounding great but the DVD player suddenly sounded really poor so maybe that should be born in mind.
Last edited by Charlie1 on 2010-02-26 12:31, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Charlie1 »

lejonklou wrote:Interestingly, the aktiv version of 109 is even more cut off in the lowest bass.
Spec sheet says they go down to 65Hz Aktiv but only 72Hz passive?
lejonklou wrote:The 109's are far from full range and their lowest bass is completely missing instead of just weaker, as in many other speakers. But it's hard to go back once you get used to the 2K array. It's really good.
Would you say passive 212s are massively better then passive 109s or just quite a lot? Is it the midband where 212s would excel over 109s - they have a dedicated mid don't they?
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Post by Chris Morton »

Cable dressing, not just cables, is very important in an active system, or at least let's say in the case of the Isobarik Aktiv. Loose and free space, not touching the floor or equipment or stands, is the key:

Image

Image

You may get a surprise if you try this. Of course, you've got to have high quality interconnects in the first place. Look closely as there's more to this than meets the eye at a glance.

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Post by Charlie1 »

Thanks Chris. Nice photos. I have been quite careful although not to your levels with suspended Silvers. I've kept power cables away from Silvers/K600 and K600 runs apart from one another and un-coiled (in the new room), but there is more I could do by the looks of things so time permitting I'll take another look.
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Post by lejonklou »

Charlie1 wrote:Spec sheet says they go down to 65Hz Aktiv but only 72Hz passive?
Yes, these are probably right. But I presume it's the -3dB figure, which shows where they begin to roll off. The aktiv 109's roll off steeply in the lowest bass, where for instance Ninka will be more flat and let you hear more of that lowest bass.
Would you say passive 212s are massively better then passive 109s or just quite a lot? Is it the midband where 212s would excel over 109s - they have a dedicated mid don't they?
Ouch. I can't quantify this, you'll have to listen. The 3K array of the 212 and 242 is a lot better, yes. It has a big midrange dome with very nice qualities.

212 could be my next speaker, I like the look of them with black arrays. But I don't like the look of the stands, that has kept me away from them. I even doubt that type of stand sounds best, I suspect it was chosen because they were told to make a "one pillar design".
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Post by Charlie1 »

lejonklou wrote:But I don't like the look of the stands, that has kept me away from them. I even doubt that type of stand sounds best, I suspect it was chosen because they were told to make a "one pillar design".
Someone from Linn recently posted that they just try to make their stands affordable. I can't recall the words, but it was along the lines that they don't put too much R&D into them or use expensive materials in order to keep costs down.

And thanks for sharing your 212/3k views. I also like the look of 212s with black arrays - probably my favourite current Linn speaker after the 350s. Agree the silver stands are not so good - black would be ok though surely or is that not an option?
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Post by Music Lover »

lejonklou wrote:
Charlie1 wrote:Spec sheet says they go down to 65Hz Aktiv but only 72Hz passive?
Yes, these are probably right. But I presume it's the -3dB figure, which shows where they begin to roll off. The aktiv 109's roll off steeply in the lowest bass, where for instance Ninka will be more flat and let you hear more of that lowest bass.
The -3dB figure means little for precieved bass.
That low you have not a lot of information from instruments anyway. The bass energy that create slam and power (drums, bass guitarr etc) is mainly present above 100Hz so what you really need is a speaker that can move AIR in the mid bass.
A single small bass speaker element simply cant move air to create slam...regardles how low the -3dB point is tuned during the construction.
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Post by lejonklou »

Power and slam is one thing, sub bass is another.

For some, it's perfectly alright to live with a reproduction without power and slam. Well, anyone who's happy with small monitor type of speaker is happy despite the lack of power and slam. But if you steeply cut off everything below, let's say 80 Hz, I think it's likely you will perceive the presentation as thin and unsatisfying.

Even if the level is rather low, I think it's important that you hear a trace of that lowest bass in the reproduction.
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Post by Music Lover »

Agree sub bass performance is important as well. But my point is, a few Hz up or down is not as important most peole think it is.
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Post by lejonklou »

I agree with that!

But the steepness of the rolloff matters. A closed box design (like Ninka) rolls of at half the rate of a vented design (like 109). So if they have identical -3 dB figures, you will still hear more of the lowest bass from the closed box design.

And in addition the 109 is said to be high pass filtered in aktiv mode, which means they further reduce the lowest bass to reduce cone movements. This could very well be the best sounding option for the 109, but perhaps the lack of lowest level info will result in a wish for a sub?

That's what I hinted at earlier in the thread.
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Post by Tony Tune-age »

Chris Morton wrote:Cable dressing, not just cables, is very important in an active system, or at least let's say in the case of the Isobarik Aktiv.
Cable management has proven to be essential in passive systems as well, although not as complicated as an active system :wink: .
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Post by minge »

Tony Tune-age wrote:
Chris Morton wrote:Cable dressing, not just cables, is very important in an active system, or at least let's say in the case of the Isobarik Aktiv.
Cable management has proven to be essential in passive systems as well, although not as complicated as an active system :wink: .
Uppraded my system from Akurate 242 with A 2200/D to Active with 2*5100 not saying my old system sounded bad but now active so much more Dynamik hearing more instruments it's so good waiting for Dynamik to my amps se what that is going to do.

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Post by Charlie1 »

minge wrote:Upgraded my system from Akurate 242 with A 2200/D to Active with 2*5100 not saying my old system sounded bad but now active so much more Dynamik hearing more instruments
Any negatives at all? They are lesser quality amps after all. Just curious - don't want to spoil your fun.

Has the sound got bigger too - i.e. less confined to the space between the speakers? Again, just curious if other speaker respond the same way my Ninkas do.

Glad you're enjoying it. Adding Dynamik to Majik amps is very worthwhile and great value - same as your 2200 no doubt.
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Post by minge »

Charlie1 wrote:
minge wrote:Upgraded my system from Akurate 242 with A 2200/D to Active with 2*5100 not saying my old system sounded bad but now active so much more Dynamik hearing more instruments
Any negatives at all? They are lesser quality amps after all. Just curious - don't want to spoil your fun.

Has the sound got bigger too - i.e. less confined to the space between the speakers? Again, just curious if other speaker respond the same way my Ninkas do.

Glad you're enjoying it. Adding Dynamik to Majik amps is very worthwhile and great value - same as your 2200 no doubt.
I got rid of the most negative in my setup the passive filters now the music comes out with a enormus dept feels like i'm in a conserthall i'm loving it active is the shit :D
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Post by ThomasOK »

An interesting thought occurred in reading this thread. I have seen threads on Aktiv operation in the past on various forums where some people posting felt that Linn didn't bother to make good passive crossovers as they were trying to force people to go Aktiv. They claimed the speakers didn't sound good passive and that you needed to go Aktiv to make them good. This thread and the comments from many certainly give the lie to that theory. The passive crossovers can't be that bad if some people are not sure if Aktiv is a complete improvement. Nor would the discussion of Klimax amps passive vs. lesser amps Aktiv make any sense if the passive crossovers were that bad.

I should say that I have always felt that this was incorrect as I have found the vast majority of Linn speakers to be, at the very least, competitive with any other speaker in their price range when driven passively and generally far better than most. Although they are obviously a fair bit better yet Aktiv for all the reasons we have talked about.
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Post by Tony Tune-age »

ThomasOK wrote:An interesting thought occurred in reading this thread. I have seen threads on Aktiv operation in the past on various forums where some people posting felt that Linn didn't bother to make good passive crossovers as they were trying to force people to go Aktiv. The passive crossovers can't be that bad if some people are not sure if Aktiv is a complete improvement.
In spite of not hearing every type of Linn speaker manufactured, the Linn speakers I have heard (both active and passive) have been extremely enjoyable. Of course component selection and room acoustics were improtant for optimal performance 8) .
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Post by sunbeamgls »

Just back to the original point of this thread.

Good to see that the config of the active cards in the amp and attention to detail on cables etc. has brought significant benefits to active operation, and all useful content for those of us with active configs to check on.

Some of the discussion on timing relates to cable length differences, etc., which seem to be reasonable. However, doesn't a passive crossover have these attributes too? The signal to each driver passes through difference components to perform the filtering - surely leading to a different length in signal path. The passive crossover components are likely to be just as variable in spec as active components too?

Just a thought.
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Post by lejonklou »

sunbeamgls wrote:Some of the discussion on timing relates to cable length differences, etc., which seem to be reasonable. However, doesn't a passive crossover have these attributes too? The signal to each driver passes through difference components to perform the filtering - surely leading to a different length in signal path. The passive crossover components are likely to be just as variable in spec as active components too?
Passive crossovers are simple and crude. And the components in them certainly vary in spec. So there's no denying they cause problems!

I'm not sure what you mean by the term "signal path length", but what has been pointed out is that active systems have a higher degree of complication. The signal is being split into many channels closer to the source end of the system, so there are a lot more details to optimise.
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Re: Is aktiv operation best in all respects (same quality amp)?

Post by Zee9 »

hello everybody,

This is probably my first post on this forum but i have been following various topics here and a lot of views in the "for sale" section. I apologize for resurrecting an old thread but i've come back to a good system after a very long time.

the reason I'm writing is to get some advice but also because i think my present situation will be like a field day for your opinions & advice since i think its rather complicated.

my system is all linn comprising of a Unidisc SC to a Majik DSM/1 (streamer and preamp) feeding (silvers)to a chakra 3200 (2/3 channels) and then to a Majik c5100 (4/5 channels). the c3200 feeds the highs (k20 cables) of my passive kabers (Ku-stone bases included)and the c5100 feeds the mid and bass (k400) of my Kabers. i read somewhere to always use the better amp on the tweeters. Neither of my amps have the Dynamik PS.

i think i have found the ideal location for my Kabers (5-6" from the wall. about 80" apart) as its a complicated room but we like what we hear. i just managed to get my hands on active cards for the Kabers and a pair of Hiquophon ow-2-92 tweeters which i just installed. My Kabers are a very early model (5xxx model number) but had the best tweeter (d-20-lp-2) supplied with them. they worked fine but are 28 years old so i said lets try the new tweeters. it has helped but id say its a 10-15% improvement in the highs.

initially we had the Kabers bi-wired with just the chakra 3200 but we prefer the sound this way. after reading this thread but before beginning to type i fed the 3200 to the bass and c5100 to the kids and highs and clearly i can feel the tweeters trying to hard so there must be some truth to the saying "best amp on the tweeters' the wiring is as suggested in this post in regards to amp channels left mirrors right.

i imagined that going active might require finding ideal speaker placement again (not fun) however after hearing the majority of comments of how great Kabers become once Aktiv, we decided we have to try it out for ourselves to see what the buzz is all about. i will say this post has scared me a little wondering what all is required as a good Aktiv tuning.
besides my silver IC from preamp to first power amp (c3200) all other IC's are linn blacks. (no internal jumpers till i can find a second c3200). I will also be using the recently acquired k600 cable although it maybe easier to use once i have a second c3200 (Besides being too long (16' each)the wires don't have that much separation and may need to be carefully separated at the amp end)

anybody with tips and advice on what i could do to best tune the entire Aktiv conversion please feel free to chime in. speaker placement, channel levels (never even thought about this), amp configuration (c3200 still on tweeters???) etc.

i'm adding a picture of the Kabers and the copper leaf work i did to the rubber surrounds to add some color to my Black Kabers to brighten up your day. the copper leaf did not degrade the sound but does give a nice kick to our lovely Kabers.


Regards

Zee
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BR: WiiM/Tundra 2.2/Kan II
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Re: Is aktiv operation best in all respects (same quality amp)?

Post by Zee9 »

i can't seem to add the photo.... my apologies
LR: LP12/Selekt/Tundra 2.5/kabers+RelT7i
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Re: Is aktiv operation best in all respects (same quality amp)?

Post by macrotech2 »

As you're on the Lejonklou forum, it would be remiss of me not to suggest that you first listen to a Lejonklou Tundra Stereo single wired passive in place of your bi-wired Linn amps. I suspect it would be significantly more musical. I'm not joking!
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Re: Is aktiv operation best in all respects (same quality amp)?

Post by sunbeamgls »

zee, you've already identified a key opportunity - to make the amps all the same. I did try mixing Akurate and Majik amps when I had active Majik 140s, preferring all Majik to the mixed amps.
Finding a used C3200 is a challenge as they are few and far between. It may be a better plan to make your way towards 4200 and 2200 Dynamik amps. Perhaps sell what you have an go with a single 6100 Dynamik in the meantime until you can find all the Akurate level amps you wish to get to.
Look for some K600 cable too, if you can find some.
I'm not sure how the OW tweeter compares to 015 variants in terms of sensitivity - it could be that it has changed the balance between tweeter and mid-bass drivers, so experiment with tweaking the tweeter levels - there is a small adjuster behind a little black plastic cap next to each channel on the rear of your amps. Make sure they're all at the mid position as the starting point and go from there, changing only the tweeters, one step at a time and leave them for a few days before tweaking any further.
Last edited by sunbeamgls on 2019-06-07 09:35, edited 2 times in total.
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