Playground for practical listening exercices

General HiFi discussion, using the Tune Method to evaluate performance

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beck
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck » 2019-05-06 12:29

I agree with lejonklou and markiteight (and half of Charlie1s brain) but often (always) we are listening to less than perfect so different aspects come out more or less good.
What this forum is about (to me) is choosing the (imperfect) musical way. It will give me lasting plessure.

When in doubt follow your nose!

When I am in doubt I just let the days go by and I will always end up dissatisfied if the music is lacking!

This I find easier listening in the room than via clips.


I am now within millimeters when I change the setup and the sound changes radically. What I find really interesting is that going from pinpoint soundscape (some of the down voted clips) to musically satisfying setup (voted for) happens within 1 or 2 millimeter change to one speaker!

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck » 2019-05-07 10:33

I can now leave my worries behind. When I listen to music playing my records I am back in my teenage room nodding my head away. I have ended with almost exactly the same setup as with the preferred clip a couple of posts back.
A changed speaker setup (leaving the Klyde setup behind) was needed closer to the wall and nearer each other. I can recommend the AT33PTG/II. It is a superb tracker and it can play music. :-)

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Ianw » 2019-05-07 16:46

Good you got a result there.

To quote the old saying “If it sounds better then it is better”

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Defender » 2019-05-07 17:42

thats good to hear and I agree with you the last millimeters count soo much ... actually my loudspeakers are only performing well when tuned by the last millimeters - off by two millimeters and I feel they drop to 85%of their capabilities
are yours more sensible to the tuning of the distance between each other or more the distance to the wall?

What really helped my in tuning the last millimeters is Fredricks statement in another discussion:
„I installed a system today. When fine tuning the last millimetres of the distance between left and right speaker, the result was a little bit similar to what you describe in 1 and 2 above. Two millimeters more apart made the music more lazy, laid back and big sounding. Two millimeters closer together made it more dry, speedy and detailed. The best performing position musically was right in between those two.“

so I am focussing on the speed of the presentation ... if I feel my brain is to slow in tune dem to follow the tune I move the speakers one mm more apart. If I feel I am too fast I move them one mm closer together.

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck » 2019-05-07 20:35

In the end it is finding a balance between the two (wall distance, distance apart). The lighter “footprint” of the AT compared to the Klyde made me go nearer the wall and closer together. A bit like tracking force (wall distance) and bias (distance apart).

What makes it difficult is the mutual dependency of the two to make the end result musical.

I can follow your description above all the way.

Whatever I do if I cannot in the end lean back and forget the analytical approach and just float away into the music I have to start all over again.

When we succeed the brain can turn off and our body can take over!

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Ianw » 2019-05-07 22:07

Seems crazy but I’ve also found that mm adjustments make a big difference in my room. I took a couple of weeks on and off to tune dem, found the optimum, finalised the position then just got on with enjoying the music.

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by lejonklou » 2019-05-08 00:15

beck wrote:
2019-05-07 20:35
In the end it is finding a balance between the two (wall distance, distance apart)
No, don't compensate or try to find a balance. It doesn't work.

There is an optimal distance from the rear wall. And there is an optimal distance apart. These two are not related and do not compensate for one another.

Find the smallest distance first - in this case it'll be the distance from the rear wall. Then find the distance apart. To fine tune the last mm - which is very worthwhile - return to the distance from the rear wall. After fine tuning that, do the same with distance apart.

Toe in can be tested before the two fine tuning steps. I find that in most cases, it's worse, so if pressed for time, ignore it. But if you do it, the center of the bass unit (the dust cap or the end of the voice coil) is the point around which the speaker should rotate - leaving the same distances from that point to the rear wall and apart.
beck wrote:
2019-05-07 20:35
When we succeed the brain can turn off and our body can take over!
Yes!

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck » 2019-05-08 05:53

lejonklou wrote:
2019-05-08 00:15
beck post wrote:In the end it is finding a balance between the two (wall distance, distance apart)
There is an optimal distance from the rear wall. And there is an optimal distance apart. These two are not related and do not compensate for one another.
Heard, Understood, Acknowledged! :-)

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 » 2019-05-08 09:00

Do folks think that every system is critical down to a couple of mm or just the higher resolving ones?

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck » 2019-05-08 11:49

Charlie1 wrote: Do folks think that every system is critical down to a couple of mm or just the higher resolving ones?
Not sure it answers your question but I think it is quite telling that with the Linn Klyde I did not feel the need to search high and low for the best speaker setup. With the AT I had to or I would not be enjoying the music.

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck » 2019-05-08 15:41

Defender wrote:
are yours more sensible to the tuning of the distance between each other or more the distance to the wall?
I used most of my time tuning the distance between the speakers. I quickly settled on 11 cm to the back wall. I would say that with the AT it was make or break tuning the distance between the speakers.

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Defender » 2019-05-08 18:54

Charlie1 wrote:
2019-05-08 09:00
Do folks think that every system is critical down to a couple of mm or just the higher resolving ones?
not sure, Fredrick and Thomas probably have done it for the most variety of speakers but my feeling is yes as it really feels like a peak.
maybe some are more forgiving if its within the 5mm range or the 2mm range.

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 » 2019-05-08 19:27

Thanks Defender and beck.

I wonder if the room also plays a big part. My office setup sound good all the time to me, doesn't matter where the speakers go, but at the same time I don't really hear much benefit when trying to tune speakers into position. My main listening room is quite square and has always been temperamental, but I have found tuning speakers much more beneficial.

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by lejonklou » 2019-05-09 22:41

Charlie1 wrote:
2019-05-08 09:00
Do folks think that every system is critical down to a couple of mm or just the higher resolving ones?
I think you're right when you say the room plays a big part. Also speakers vary in how sensitive they are. Some room-speaker combinations can gain massively from mm precision positioning, while others don't seem to have as sharp "spikes" in performance around the optimal position points.

The quality of the signal feeding the speaker-room combination is of course crucial to how musical the system becomes, but it doesn't necessarily determine how accurately the speakers need to be positioned. Although it's always a lot easier to tune the positions with a great signal, there have still been occasions where I've found that a mediocre system can benefit enormously from careful tuning.

Then there's also the question of whether the speakers need a repositioning after a change of source or amplifiers. Often the optimal speaker positions seem unaffected by this, but sometimes they do change. And then usually just a little, like for instance 5 mm closer to the rear wall with the new amp.

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 » 2019-05-10 11:12

Thanks Fredrik. Very interesting.

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck » 2019-05-13 13:21

Sorry for using the same number but it is too interesting for me to pass on this opportunity.

Previous (favorite on this forum):

https://www.dropbox.com/s/vfu44y4141464 ... 4.mov?dl=0

Now (my favorite):

https://www.dropbox.com/s/v0s1zo2zikefn ... 8.mov?dl=0

Are there two solutions to our quest?

Let your voice be heard!

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 » 2019-05-13 13:35

They seem close to me. Your new favourite sounds a bit more refined. It still (slightly) prefer the previous forum favourite - just enjoy it a little more but, like I said, not much in it for me.

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck » 2019-05-13 19:24

As things are moving fast I will remove the clips above and say thank you for your help. It has been very valuable to me. I am back where I want to be.

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 » 2019-05-20 18:24

Linn Kan Rosewood Mark 1 with Scanspeak D2008 tweeter vs Teak Mark 1 with Hiquphon tweeter.

Both with sticky out terminals and same KEF bass/mid.

Track #1
Scanspeak: https://www.dropbox.com/s/0mjyxknhfsvyv ... 1.MOV?dl=0
Hiquphon: https://www.dropbox.com/s/z4oe3jw7csd4n ... 5.MOV?dl=0

Track #2
Scanspeak: https://www.dropbox.com/s/94r00qdb2uvow ... 2.MOV?dl=0
Hiquphon: https://www.dropbox.com/s/j9b11eodmjetd ... 7.MOV?dl=0

Track #3
Scanspeak: https://www.dropbox.com/s/tlq0653rabhhl ... 3.MOV?dl=0
Hiquphon: https://www.dropbox.com/s/hy869wbekb87e ... 4.MOV?dl=0

Don't know how much use the Rosewood ones have had in recent times. I did play them for an hour before recording. I sense they could do with some loosening up though.

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Spannko » 2019-05-20 19:27

Yeah, I’m not feeling the love for the Hiquophon’s. On the other hand, the Scanspeaks are proper rockers!

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck » 2019-05-20 19:29

+1

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by markiteight » 2019-05-21 20:05

It seems like the Hiq's might do a better job of tweeting than the 'speaks, but they don't integrate into the Kans as well. On the Hiq clips I hear a woofer and a tweeter. On the 'speak tracks I hear music.

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 » 2019-05-21 22:33

I much prefer the sound of the Rosewood/Scanspeak speakers too. The roughness that I had always assumed was a Kan 1 trait is nearly all gone. They are much closer to my Kan 2s in terms of clarity and sounding 'normal'.

However, there has been something nagging at me about them. I've not really had much of a thrill listening to them even though, like you all, I prefer them in the clips. Its been more of a cerebral improvement. But I just listened again and for the first time could hear what I prefer in the Teak/Hiquophon pair - Mr Gaye's track seems to swing more and have better rhythm. I think this is what I'm missing in the Rosewoods - they seem more 'matter of fact' and 'can't be bothered' about the rhythmic elements of that song - e.g. the swing is not very pronounced to my ears.

Penny for your thoughts...

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck » 2019-05-21 22:58

It is a subtle difference but I can hear it too when listening carefully.

You mentioned in your posting of the clips that it is as if they (rosewood) need more use to loosen up. Have they changed during the period you have used them? If not, then you have to get another pair to compare.

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 » 2019-05-22 10:18

beck wrote:
2019-05-21 22:58
It is a subtle difference but I can hear it too when listening carefully.

You mentioned in your posting of the clips that it is as if they (rosewood) need more use to loosen up. Have they changed during the period you have used them? If not, then you have to get another pair to compare.
I didn't get a chance to play them yesterday so will do that for a while and then re-compare. But agree that another pair is needed really. I would also like to hear the Kan 1 version after these that includes the newer long throw KEF driver (Hiquophon tweeter only).

Incidentally, I think I've found a way to combine the benefits of all my Linn speakers...
https://www.dropbox.com/s/y4g6mmm7kdat1 ... n.png?dl=0

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