Playground for practical listening exercices

General HiFi discussion, using the Tune Method to evaluate performance

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u252agz
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by u252agz » 2019-04-23 13:57

Which is the one that sounds bigger and more impressive and which do you prefer in real life?
KDS2/Sagatun Tundra Monos /242s /LP12 Kore-KRad-Ekos SE/Slip 7

Sneaky/RP3/Slip 6.1/ Boazu/ Komp110

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by ThomasOK » 2019-04-23 18:46

I prefer clip 2 as well. I feel it flows better and the instruments sound more natural to me. Clip 1 does seem to me to have a bigger, more detailed sound but does not serve the music as well.

Having graded a fair number of Linn Silvers I am not surprised by these differences. The change from a really good pair to a fairly poor pair is quite substantial.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by ThomasOK » 2019-04-23 19:22

I suppose it could have equally well have been posted here, but I just posted a system clip on the SINGularity thread from the system used at Axpona, now back at home. (It could also have been posted on the Me and My System section - so many choices!)
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by markiteight » 2019-04-23 20:45

u252agz wrote:
2019-04-23 13:57
Which is the one that sounds bigger and more impressive and which do you prefer in real life?
Oops...I missed that minor detail. Everyone's conclusions match what I hear in the room: Option 2 is better. Interestingly, over on the systems thread Charlie1 prefers Blacks to Option2, so more investigation is needed. Also, Fredrik suggested I listen to and grade each Silver individually. Just because they come in pairs doesn't mean their performance is identical. Right now I have Option 2 on source and replaced Option1 with Blacks between preamp and amp and the music has taken another leap forward. So there they will remain...at least for a while.
ThomasOK wrote:
2019-04-23 18:46
I prefer clip 2 as well. I feel it flows better and the instruments sound more natural to me. Clip 1 does seem to me to have a bigger, more detailed sound but does not serve the music as well.

Having graded a fair number of Linn Silvers I am not surprised by these differences. The change from a really good pair to a fairly poor pair is quite substantial.
I'm curious, what percentage of the Silvers you have evaluated would you estimate are good enough to justify the jump in cost from Blacks (ignoring those which would automatically perform worse, such as later slotted RCAs and dealer terminated)?

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck » 2019-04-27 12:03

With my new AT33 I have been working on changing the speaker setup. Below you can
hear what a changed setup of speakers can do to the sound and music:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/mdli8bvwwhqu4 ... 4.mov?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/bjk97akm4przr ... 2.mov?dl=0

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 » 2019-04-27 12:19

Even the opening echo of the blocks is nicer on the more recent clip

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by ThomasOK » 2019-04-27 18:27

I definitely like the second clip better. But then maybe it was just "When is't late in the evening, and the music's seeping through."
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by tokenbrit » 2019-04-28 00:05

Interesting beck - 2 here too. Care to share how much, and in what way the new speaker position differs from previously?

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck » 2019-04-28 06:55

Previous distance from tweeter to tweeter (messured from their center) was 1.54 meters. Now it is 1.41.
Previous distance from back wall to the back of the Espeks was 16 centimeters. Now I am down to 11 cm.

I suspect that the AT33PTG/II using a microline cut makes it easier to find the spot where the performance peaks.

Before speaker setup I used a lot of time with Ekos1 bias setting and here I also found a different setting where it peaked. AT33 tracking force 1.95g messured with bias set at 2.55.

I cannot know for sure if the change from Klyde to AT changes the best setup but from listening to my old clips I would say that I think the AT makes it easier to find the best setup. I would also try this setup with the Klyde if it still could play.

What is absolutely vital is using ones ears (as we all know). It is like trying to get the left and right eye in a pair of binoculars to come together in one focussed view. They can be slightly seperated not reaching each other or they can overlap too much crossing each other to the other side (it actually sounded like that when I pushed the speakers too close together).

I focus on the same be it bias or speaker setup. Mostly it is the musical timing. Does it seem like the bass is too early or too late? Do they sound like a band playing together and so on...


We are talking about VERY small changes in the end getting it absolutely right. I could hear changes to the sound of the AT when I could not see any change looking at the bias dial setting only feeling that I had put pressure on the dial. Same with the speakers. Getting the position absolutely right is harder the closer you get.




All the above is hard work. I could feel my back days after pushing around with my speakers! :-)

A simple change that will be succesfull to everybody with a turntable is cleaning the motor pulley, the inner platter (and the belt?) with isopropyl alcohol. It is a sure winner! :-)

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck » 2019-05-01 05:45

ThomasOK wrote:
2019-04-27 18:27
I definitely like the second clip better. But then maybe it was just "When is't late in the evening, and the music's seeping through."
Acting on a hunch: If you ever ThomasOK get the opportunity to make a comparison between your 2.48 meter speaker cables and a set of 2.50 meters or above with your great system I would be very interested in hearing it on the “Playground”.

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 » 2019-05-02 11:52

Majik 109s or Katans for the office?

Loser goes into the kitchen/lounge.

I played with positioning a bit so they are slightly different.

Katans #1: https://www.dropbox.com/s/lnlmqoxoz9psi ... 1.MOV?dl=0
M109s #1: https://www.dropbox.com/s/qo2m2owyz4f5i ... 8.MOV?dl=0

Katans #2: https://www.dropbox.com/s/0rbeibhgttynu ... 0.MOV?dl=0
M109s #2: https://www.dropbox.com/s/qzges3xdzeuxa ... 9.MOV?dl=0

Thanks to Spannko for getting me into John Hiatt!

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by tokenbrit » 2019-05-02 12:12

If it were me, I'd say Majik in the kitchen...

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Tendaberry » 2019-05-02 13:14

Somehow I think the Nait and the 109's aren't that great a combination...

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 » 2019-05-02 14:02

I think I hear an 'oddness' too. Both pairs sound good in the kitchen so that end is fine.

This might be better then, taken yesterday with Creek 4140 - more grunt for sure and suits this track in particular.

Speaker positions are less ideal though.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/vvsdapxa3vu4s ... 5.MOV?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/6uzxbrckslfvm ... 6.MOV?dl=0

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck » 2019-05-02 14:13

Creek/Katan is the party I want to be invited to. Maybe your red Nait (when it comes back) can spread some joy too.

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 » 2019-05-02 14:25

It was cold to be fair but even so I recall it being better than the Creek last time I switched - more fun. Not sure what's changed.

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck » 2019-05-02 14:35

Your cart has changed! K9

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 » 2019-05-02 14:42

Yeah, I bought a couple off Colin the other week. Much better and no inner grove tracking issues - commonly reported problem with the 95E.

Now the Nait is warm and Creek cold (probably should have used the same track but too late now):

Nait: https://www.dropbox.com/s/5krujpu4mo5s6 ... 2.MOV?dl=0
Creek: https://www.dropbox.com/s/a9yw3zapckfrw ... 3.MOV?dl=0

The problem with the Creek is that there's a certain frequency where it's a bet screechy and unpleasant. Harmonica can bring it out.

I still don't think this Nait is right. It was great a few weeks ago when I last had it in here. Maybe that's why my main system was sounding off the past week.

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck » 2019-05-02 14:50

With the Creek clip I get into music mode completely. Less so with the green Nait. Some Nait investigation needed?

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 » 2019-05-02 15:55

Yes, back to the Creek is better for sure. I need to learn to trust my instincts more. Thanks beck! I reckon this only happend about a week ago. It's a subtle degredation too - just taken some life and energy out of the music. It's not the phono stage either cos the mains system uses a line input from Urika. This is the problem with old equipment, even if the manufacturer does still support them. Keeps Darren in business though - these Naits are like a bloody relay team at the moment.

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Spannko » 2019-05-02 18:33

Tonally, the 109s sound great on the John Hiatt track, but musically, the Katans are right on the money. What an absolute bargain for the £200 - £400 they can be picked up for! However, the 109’s are quite new, so will they improve over time and become as musical as the Katans? It’ll be interesting to see how things develop.

Listening to the 2 amps, it sounds like the Nait manages to reproduce the tune of all of the instruments, whereas the Creek appears to trip up on the piano slightly. However, the Nait was fully warmed up and the Creek was cold. I wonder how much of an effect this has?

Thanks for another great set of clips charlie1!

Edit. It looks like I’ve been out voted re the amps! Have you thought about getting the Creek serviced charlie1?

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by ThomasOK » 2019-05-02 20:33

I'm liking Katans more than Majiks in this situation.

Then again since it is not a single speaker demonstration results may be invalid.

Also you have a black animal damper on the right side and not the left (not to mention the bed). My black animal damper has been trained to lay down between the speakers as some of my clips may have shown. ;-)
Charlie1 wrote:
2019-05-02 11:52
Majik 109s or Katans for the office?

Loser goes into the kitchen/lounge.

I played with positioning a bit so they are slightly different.

Katans #1: https://www.dropbox.com/s/lnlmqoxoz9psi ... 1.MOV?dl=0
M109s #1: https://www.dropbox.com/s/qo2m2owyz4f5i ... 8.MOV?dl=0

Katans #2: https://www.dropbox.com/s/0rbeibhgttynu ... 0.MOV?dl=0
M109s #2: https://www.dropbox.com/s/qzges3xdzeuxa ... 9.MOV?dl=0

Thanks to Spannko for getting me into John Hiatt!
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by ThomasOK » 2019-05-02 20:42

Creek isn't lighting my fire although it seems to like the 109s better than the the Katans. But the Nait certainly isn't as much better than the Creek as it should be. A whole lot of conundrum.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 » 2019-05-02 22:59

ThomasOK wrote:
2019-05-02 20:33
Also you have a black animal damper on the right side and not the left (not to mention the bed). My black animal damper has been trained to lay down between the speakers as some of my clips may have shown. ;-)
I know - I'm gonna said this one back and get a proper one which ideally doesn't throw up on the living room carpet.

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by AlbannachFE » 2019-05-02 23:57

For me, Nait and Katans.

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