Playground for practical listening exercises

We use the Tune Method to evaluate performance

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Spannko
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Spannko »

Charlie1 wrote: 2019-01-16 19:03 There's me comparing clips with older ones trying to work out why the music is slightly quieter and a bit flat at the same volume setting. I though the Nait was broken but it must be that bloody mattress!
I think that’s a great example of how sound absorbers can destroy musicality. From the experiments I’ve done, it sounds best with the absolute minimum of absorption needed to just tame the flutter echoes, and certainly not at the first reflection points! - the reflection needs to be as near to the direct sound (spectraly) as possible, so we can encourage some lovely coherent envelopment in the room (as long as the delay between the direct and reflected sound is less than 25ms). I think the problem is that anything that absorbs sound does so non linearly, this messing up the rooms linearity, which is obviously not a good thing. I purposely chose leather furniture because the absorption characteristics are more linear than upholstered furniture. Feel free to call me a sad b’stard for letting the hifi control my life!

These modern diffusers are often touted as the answer, but from what I can see they’re even more non linear than sound absorbers. I’d like to try the old fashioned curved reflector/diffusers, but I haven’t got round to it yet. Also, what’s holding me back is they’re all so fekin fugly!
Charlie1
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 »

Thanks for the kind offer Spannko. I don't have any flexibility with the mattress I'm afraid. I've cleared out books and other stuff so there is less in there. I think it's helped a bit but not much.

Now there is more space in my office I am setting up a system in there. Unfortunately, there isn't a solid wall for Kans, so probably better for the Keilidhs or something else.
Charlie1
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 »

I took the mattress out the room and the volume is definitely impacted, plus the sound, so I think the amp is still working fine. These were recorded at the same amp volume:

Before: https://www.dropbox.com/s/zpzt1eocqno86 ... D.MOV?dl=0
After: https://www.dropbox.com/s/k1pb1b155rum3 ... D.MOV?dl=0

In the room, I enjoyed it more without the mattress. In the recordings, the mattress does tame reflections and kind of help you hear the system more easily. Maybe the volume was a bit too much for the phone without the mattress too.
beck
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck »

Amazing how much impact it has on the sound. I clearly enjoy “after” much more. Burn that mattress!
Playing cd’s…………
Charlie1
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 »

Mattress still there but found an improvement elsewhere by moving all the LP storage away from the speakers, although some has had to join the rest in the cupboard.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/yl8a2p5ulr5wn ... D.MOV?dl=0

Having listened for a while now, it's musically a step forward. More poignant and communicative.

The sound has changed somewhat too. Top end is more open and less grainy. Less bass though, which is odd. Perhaps the bass is less damped and just seems less.
Last edited by Charlie1 on 2019-01-20 18:11, edited 2 times in total.
beck
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck »

It does sound like you have kept some of the good things from each of the two previous clips.
Playing cd’s…………
Lego
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Lego »

Kan speaker stands and having no other speakers in the room would sort out the issues and you'd be able to have your mattress and records back in :0)
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Charlie1
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 »

I swapped out that last recording as for some reason the bass has tightened up again - maybe the Keilidhs needed to sink back into the carpet again.

Looking out for Kan stands. Will defo remove the Keilidhs once I have them sorted on stands.
beck
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck »

I really, really like your latest recording and that says a lot! :-)

I have stopped my cd investigation and most accept that it is not possible for me to get the kind of enjoyment you get with your setup even though tune and timing with my cd player is the best I have ever heard from it.............
Playing cd’s…………
Spannko
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Spannko »

Charlie1 wrote: 2019-01-17 13:11 I took the mattress out the room and the volume is definitely impacted, plus the sound, so I think the amp is still working fine. These were recorded at the same amp volume:

Before: https://www.dropbox.com/s/zpzt1eocqno86 ... D.MOV?dl=0
After: https://www.dropbox.com/s/k1pb1b155rum3 ... D.MOV?dl=0

In the room, I enjoyed it more without the mattress. In the recordings, the mattress does tame reflections and kind of help you hear the system more easily. Maybe the volume was a bit too much for the phone without the mattress too.
This is a great example of how the absorptive value of the room affects the sound we hear. Personally, although the sound without the mattress is clearer, I find the sound with the mattress more enjoyable, and It’s possible that the optimum is somewhere between the two. Maybe a single bed mattress, or a cot mattress perhaps?

I tuned my room by trying to make it as linear as possible*, but still quite reflective, then gradually introduced sound absorbers into the room until the sound was the most tuneful.

I used these: http://www.acoustic-foam.co.uk/shop/blo ... ustic-tile because they are small enough to allow reasonably fine tuning and are cheap enough to experiment with.

* I did this by ensuring the walls were traditional plaster over brick/dense block, rather than being over boarded, then finished with emulsion paint. The ceiling was double boarded with 12mm plaster board. Finishing the floor is the most difficult because none of the materials are particularly linear, so I went with a medium depth carpet to try and make the room as domestically acceptable as possible. The final result seems to be ok, without any problems I can detect.
Charlie1
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 »

Certainly sounds good to me Spannko. Very neat and tidy too, or will be once the power cables are out of sight :)
Spannko
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Spannko »

Thanks Charlie1 :-)
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 »

Finally sourced some Kan II stands at reasonable price. Took the Keilidhs out of the room which seemed only fair.

Keilidh Stands #1: https://www.dropbox.com/s/wp1xp4rd8w6u2 ... D.MOV?dl=0
Kan II Stands #1: https://www.dropbox.com/s/6v2xnqsql13oo ... D.MOV?dl=0

Keilidh Stands #2: https://www.dropbox.com/s/e1g82gx3xw2hm ... D.MOV?dl=0
Kan II Stands #2: https://www.dropbox.com/s/x39zcocu6uhyw ... D.MOV?dl=0

Last Marvin clip (promise) but now with Kan II stands (same volume as previous versions):
https://www.dropbox.com/s/96riywvpkmdqr ... D.MOV?dl=0

And one more from one of my favourite albums:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/3amj3y6llnhhb ... D.MOV?dl=0
beck
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck »

Easy to hear the difference (tight focused sound). I still like the softer sound and the organic flow from the Keilidh stands though. Have you tried Skeets under the KAN II stands?

I also wonder what the difference in height does to the sound.........
Playing cd’s…………
Charlie1
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 »

Yeah, I can hear that now. I'm glad you mentioned it. I was too busy enjoying the benefits.

I've fitted Skeets and re levelled but will have to compare properly in the morning.

I've also found the best distance to the rear wall is a couple more cm out than I had them previously. I'd always been told to get Kans as close to the rear wall as possible, but the speakers are now 7.5cm away.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Spannko »

I agree with beck on this. It’s as if the sound has been made worse by three notches whilst the musicality has improved by only one notch. It’s the kind of difference which would have me looking elsewhere tbh, because I’d want a nice sound and improved musicality.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 »

Doesn't sounds as good this morning for some reason. The washing machine and oven are on so maybe that's it.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/icuto0p9hntwt ... D.MOV?dl=0

Based on these clips, I think I can rule out Kan II stands without Skeets + right up close to the rear wall.

I think there's more work to do and also try the Keilidhs again. I may also try tilting them upwards slightly cos the stands are so much shorter.
Last edited by Charlie1 on 2019-01-27 13:22, edited 1 time in total.
beck
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck »

It is fascinating how different the same system can sound with only the speaker setup changed. I look forward to this continue investigation.....

Just now I think the Keilidh stand (though not perfect) will make you buy more records..............
Playing cd’s…………
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Spannko »

Yes, totally fascinating. I never knew how much the stands were responsible for the Kan “shouty” sound. Thanks charlie1 :-)
tokenbrit
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by tokenbrit »

I get the 'shouty' description - can that be moderated with moving &/or filling the stands? Even though, I prefer 'I think I kan' to 'living on a box' - the interaction with the keilidhs doesn't sound right to me (either)
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 »

Thanks for the feedback and ideas.

Not sure you can fill the stands tokenbrit. I did try putting a load of LPs on the stand (within the frame structure) but didn't like the effect, so I wonder if any kind of damping is counter productive with them.

I also tried a very heavy porcelain floor tile under each stand but that wasn't good either - I made sure there wasn't able wobble.

I wonder what they'd sound like sat on top of a pair of Isoblue racks.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by tokenbrit »

Maybe they'll sing when the position is dialed in, and the Skeets settle in to the carpet a little... That and a little time to get used to the different sound.
If mass damping isn't possible, maybe some mattress damping :)
Rather than filling the stands, I wonder if clamping a small(?) sheet of wood, or fiberboard, between 2 legs would help? Depending on size & position it could reinforce the bass, if placed across the front or rear legs, or it might dampen the influence of the stands if placed as a brace between the outside, or inside, legs... You'd just need the boards & a few c-clamps.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Lego »

Charlie1 wrote: 2019-01-27 00:21 Yeah, I can hear that now. I'm glad you mentioned it. I was too busy enjoying the benefits.

I've fitted Skeets and re levelled but will have to compare properly in the morning.

I've also found the best distance to the rear wall is a couple more cm out than I had them previously. I'd always been told to get Kans as close to the rear wall as possible, but the speakers are now 7.5cm away.
Kans on their stands usually always sound good hard against a solid Glasgow tenement wall preferably adjoining to flat next door and ~3' feet thick :0)
I know that tune
Spannko
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Spannko »

Lego wrote: 2019-01-27 18:59
Charlie1 wrote: 2019-01-27 00:21 Yeah, I can hear that now. I'm glad you mentioned it. I was too busy enjoying the benefits.

I've fitted Skeets and re levelled but will have to compare properly in the morning.

I've also found the best distance to the rear wall is a couple more cm out than I had them previously. I'd always been told to get Kans as close to the rear wall as possible, but the speakers are now 7.5cm away.
Kans on their stands usually always sound good hard against a solid Glasgow tenement wall preferably adjoining to flat next door and ~3' feet thick :0)
Totally agree. It’s the best I’ve ever heard Kans. I think some of the upgrades were checked for sound quality in such an environment, prior to release.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck »

It is always interesting to hear how the sound from a system evolves for the better (hopefully). What kind of changes can be heard? I think you will find them interesting. Here are the latest from my cd player:

2 days ago:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/wqbqmmqfctojy ... 8.mov?dl=0

Yesterday:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/yg2k2vj08xh8y ... 0.mov?dl=0

Latest:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/enxt95jclswo4 ... 2.mov?dl=0
Playing cd’s…………
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