The Linn forum is officially dead

General HiFi discussion, using the Tune Method to evaluate performance

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timster
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Re: The Linn forum is officially dead

Post by timster » 2018-10-10 09:10

Maybe a letter to Gilad. I've sent this:
Dear Mr. Tiefenbrun



It was with great sadness, not to say dismay, to hear of the decision to close the invaluable forums. While I understand the resources to keep such an active community alive and relevant had gotten too great, the community and knowledge it contained was part of the enjoyment of owning a Linn system, and invaluable in getting the best out of it. It would be a greater shame if all that was lost.



There was so much information from owners and invaluable insights and knowledge from Linn staff, that at least a knowledge base and FAQ would have been a better way forward. Making the current forum read-only until such a transition would have been more acceptable.



Neither is there is currently any information on the status of Linn Accounts, just as one example - other forums have kindly allowed space for Linn refugees who have grown increasingly frustrated at the cloud Space Optimisation v2.0 being either slow or failing with no access to information. I myself have recently had to contact the help-line for three separate issues that could well have been answered already on the forums, and I am still awaiting answers. I am sure the help line will suffer greatly from the removal of such a valuable resource, making it over-used and stretched to the detriment of your customer service reputation.



It is also not insignificant that had it not been for the forums I would not have taken on my own journey from Majik to Akurate. Nor would it have been as likely that I would be contemplating an upgrade to Katalyst. When I was a new Linn customer the forum was invaluable in helping understand streaming methodologies, software and even "little" and yet important things about tagging, NAS's, control points and the like. Roon would have completely passed me by.



To expect the help line and/or dealers to take this kind of load is unreasonable and I don't believe workable or practical. Customers will be left too much in the dark about Linn not only in general terms, but the great features and possibilities, and your USPs, too.



May I please request you reconsider this decision.



Yours faithfully and in hope for the future of Linn

Tim <redacted>

Linn system owner from source to speaker for 5 years.
AEDSM (AKA ASH) -> AEBox10 -> M6100 + M2100 -> M140 + REL T5

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Re: The Linn forum is officially dead

Post by DavidHB » 2018-10-10 09:13

timster wrote:... how does one get on the Beat tester list now? I have Konfig beta turned on but no email. Perhaps when you select device beta, the linn cloud machine will automatically generate one?
One has to wonder at their thinking...
They have to have your email address, which you would have provided if you ever did "Report to Linn" on a beta build. If you have a Linn Account, they have an email address, of course, but that does not (I think) identify you as a beta tester.

The email that has been sent out is an announcement that there will be a forum, not an invitation to join it. That, we hope, comes later.

David

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Re: The Linn forum is officially dead

Post by donuk » 2018-10-10 10:13

Timster, I have written something similar.
I love your request to be a Beat Tester.

Has a nice touch of tunedem about it!

Cheers
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Re: The Linn forum is officially dead

Post by Charly » 2018-10-10 10:25

Hi Tim,
what LINN email address have you used to send the letter ?
timster wrote:Maybe a letter to Gilad. I've sent this:
Dear Mr. Tiefenbrun

It was with great sadness, ........

May I please request you reconsider this decision.

Yours faithfully and in hope for the future of Linn

Tim <redacted>

Linn system owner from source to speaker for 5 years.
Klimax DSM / Exaktbox Katalyst, C6100, Ninka, Exaktbox Sub, Sizmik,
Klimax Renew, LK140, Nexus

timster
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Re: The Linn forum is officially dead

Post by timster » 2018-10-10 11:14

Gilad's Linn email address.
Don't want to post it publicly but you could guess - not even sure if it's right. Hasn't bounced back yet though!
Last edited by timster on 2018-10-11 06:29, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Linn forum is officially dead

Post by timster » 2018-10-10 11:17

donuk wrote:Timster, I have written something similar.
I love your request to be a Beat Tester.

Has a nice touch of tunedem about it!

Cheers
Donuk
Boom chicka boom chika boom
I actually don't want to be a device Beta tester at the moment - it depends what they are testing, although I am in Konfig beta.
chicak boom boom boom
;)
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Re: The Linn forum is officially dead

Post by moog_man » 2018-10-10 11:53

pdcman wrote:I think the email was sent to anyone who had participated in any beta program past or present.
I got the e-mail, too. Thing is, I’ve never participated in any testing program; don’t even want a Linn DS

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Re: The Linn forum is officially dead

Post by Spannko » 2018-10-10 14:35

Personally, I think Linn have done the right thing by closing the forum. It’s really important that everything they’re associated with reflects their core values and its been the case for far too long that an ethos was being promoted on the forum which was clearly at odds with Linns. There were other problems too, but for this reason alone, something had to change.

Take a look at the Meridian approach to customer support. They don’t have a forum; instead there’s plenty of well structured, easy to find information on their website. For those that enjoy the social side there’s a thriving independent forum.

So it’s clear that a company doesn’t have to run their own forum. In fact, I’m pretty sure a company would learn more about their customers by not having a forum. On an independent forum people are more likely to speak their mind.

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Re: The Linn forum is officially dead

Post by sunbeamgls » 2018-10-10 15:04

Spannko wrote:Personally, I think Linn have done the right thing by closing the forum. It’s really important that everything they’re associated with reflects their core values and its been the case for far too long that an ethos was being promoted on the forum which was clearly at odds with Linns. There were other problems too, but for this reason alone, something had to change.

Take a look at the Meridian approach to customer support. They don’t have a forum; instead there’s plenty of well structured, easy to find information on their website. For those that enjoy the social side there’s a thriving independent forum.

So it’s clear that a company doesn’t have to run their own forum. In fact, I’m pretty sure a company would learn more about their customers by not having a forum. On an independent forum people are more likely to speak their mind.
That's like closing down a whole country because there are a percentage of the community who are criminals. Normally countries don't operate like that.
AEDSM; AEBox/1; 3x Tundra Stereo 2.5; PMC 20.26. Blogger. Exakt Design. SO measuring.

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Re: The Linn forum is officially dead

Post by donuk » 2018-10-10 15:28

I agree with Sunbeam.
A bit like dog shit in the park. Spoils it for everyone.

Moderation of the forum was all that was necessary. They could have even have asked for voluntary moderators. Some forums have that system.........

Donuk sunny downtown York
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Re: The Linn forum is officially dead

Post by Defender » 2018-10-10 15:43

I also got the mail even though I am not in any beta testing program. There seem to have been other measures. Maybe how long you are a member of the Linn Forum or how many posts you did.

I think my posts have not been always in favour for Linn and again now I have the feeling LINN is like a complicated woman/man ... whenever I am approaching her/him she/he slamms me in the face.

First experience was my Majik DS 2009 which was certainly not better than every CD-Player (as Linn marketing indicated) than sold and lived happy till 2018 with a good CD-Player. Now back because of Katalyst and Space Optimization only to realise that Akurate DS is disconinued and forum shoot down ;) ... and again I dont believe that DVC is better than a Pre-Amp (feels like Linn Marketing makes statements that become true 10 years later).
If I see the output stage of an Akurate DS I think a company like LINN could get even better sounding products if not just using OAMPs but discrete output stages.

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Re: The Linn forum is officially dead

Post by Spannko » 2018-10-10 15:53

sunbeamgls wrote:
Spannko wrote:Personally, I think Linn have done the right thing by closing the forum. It’s really important that everything they’re associated with reflects their core values and its been the case for far too long that an ethos was being promoted on the forum which was clearly at odds with Linns. There were other problems too, but for this reason alone, something had to change.

Take a look at the Meridian approach to customer support. They don’t have a forum; instead there’s plenty of well structured, easy to find information on their website. For those that enjoy the social side there’s a thriving independent forum.

So it’s clear that a company doesn’t have to run their own forum. In fact, I’m pretty sure a company would learn more about their customers by not having a forum. On an independent forum people are more likely to speak their mind.
That's like closing down a whole country because there are a percentage of the community who are criminals. Normally countries don't operate like that.
Linn Products Ltd isn’t a country. It’s a commercial operation. They’ve every right to act on something they feel is not in their interests.
Last edited by Spannko on 2018-10-10 16:12, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: The Linn forum is officially dead

Post by timster » 2018-10-10 15:54

Euch. Welcome to America
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Re: The Linn forum is officially dead

Post by sunbeamgls » 2018-10-10 16:38

Spannko wrote:
sunbeamgls wrote:
Spannko wrote:Personally, I think Linn have done the right thing by closing the forum. It’s really important that everything they’re associated with reflects their core values and its been the case for far too long that an ethos was being promoted on the forum which was clearly at odds with Linns. There were other problems too, but for this reason alone, something had to change.

Take a look at the Meridian approach to customer support. They don’t have a forum; instead there’s plenty of well structured, easy to find information on their website. For those that enjoy the social side there’s a thriving independent forum.

So it’s clear that a company doesn’t have to run their own forum. In fact, I’m pretty sure a company would learn more about their customers by not having a forum. On an independent forum people are more likely to speak their mind.
That's like closing down a whole country because there are a percentage of the community who are criminals. Normally countries don't operate like that.
Linn Products Ltd isn’t a country. It’s a commercial operation. They’ve every right to act on something they feel is not in their interests.
The first 2 sentences are true. The third is also true but the impact you suggest may not be.
AEDSM; AEBox/1; 3x Tundra Stereo 2.5; PMC 20.26. Blogger. Exakt Design. SO measuring.

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Re: The Linn forum is officially dead

Post by Gussy » 2018-10-10 16:56

Spannko wrote:Personally, I think Linn have done the right thing by closing the forum. It’s really important that everything they’re associated with reflects their core values and its been the case for far too long that an ethos was being promoted on the forum which was clearly at odds with Linns. There were other problems too, but for this reason alone, something had to change.

Take a look at the Meridian approach to customer support. They don’t have a forum; instead there’s plenty of well structured, easy to find information on their website. For those that enjoy the social side there’s a thriving independent forum.

So it’s clear that a company doesn’t have to run their own forum. In fact, I’m pretty sure a company would learn more about their customers by not having a forum. On an independent forum people are more likely to speak their mind.
+1

It´s time to stop the carping and move on.

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Re: The Linn forum is officially dead

Post by ThomasOK » 2018-10-10 16:58

Spannko wrote: Linn Products Ltd isn’t a country. It’s a commercial operation. They’ve every right to act on something they feel is not in their interests.
This is certainly true. But what they feel is not in their interest and what actually is not in their interest can be two different things. In this case I believe that closing down a thriving forum, populated mostly by people who were pro-Linn and who gave quite a bit of good advice about system setup, best ways to upgrade, overcoming software and hardware difficulties, etc. (admittedly mixed in with some bad information but that is hard to completely erase, see below for more on that) is not in Linn's best interests. They have obviously generated a lot of ill will with a number of customers as witnessed here and this is only the tip of the iceberg. Once things get up and running on Wigwam I wouldn't be surprised if a fair bit of Linn flailing will take place in the beginning.
donuk wrote: Moderation of the forum was all that was necessary. They could have even have asked for voluntary moderators. Some forums have that system.........

Donuk sunny downtown York
This is one of the most sensible posts that I have seen here. There was really nothing wrong with the Linn forum that couldn't have been fixed with a reasonable level of moderation. As donuk says, there is no reason Linn would need to hire four full time people to moderate the forum, I expect they could easily get a few volunteers to moderate and they would just have to make sure they moderated to Linn's rules. But even if they needed to hire a person or two to full time moderate it would be a small price to pay for the good will of their customer base, the priceless feedback on their gear and software and the user to user support the forum provided. In the end they will probably have to hire at least two new support people to handle all the questions that now go directly to them. All IMHO, of course.
Last edited by ThomasOK on 2018-10-10 18:50, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Linn forum is officially dead

Post by anthony » 2018-10-10 17:15

Gussy wrote:
Spannko wrote:Personally, I think Linn have done the right thing by closing the forum. It’s really important that everything they’re associated with reflects their core values and its been the case for far too long that an ethos was being promoted on the forum which was clearly at odds with Linns. There were other problems too, but for this reason alone, something had to change.

Take a look at the Meridian approach to customer support. They don’t have a forum; instead there’s plenty of well structured, easy to find information on their website. For those that enjoy the social side there’s a thriving independent forum.

So it’s clear that a company doesn’t have to run their own forum. In fact, I’m pretty sure a company would learn more about their customers by not having a forum. On an independent forum people are more likely to speak their mind.
+1

It´s time to stop the carping and move on.
+2

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Re: The Linn forum is officially dead

Post by Music Lover » 2018-10-10 17:57

timster wrote:Maybe a letter to Gilad. I've sent this:
That's a GREAT mail, well done sir!
It's all about musical understanding!

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Re: The Linn forum is officially dead

Post by Wolfie » 2018-10-10 17:59

Music Lover wrote:
Wolfie wrote:I’ve not received anything about the development forum. I’ll go and sulk in the corner...

Mick
I got one.
I will do my best to pull a few strings, getting an invitation to you (and to others in same situation)
Sorted now. I emailed the helpline with an ‘fao’ for Simon, and have heard back now. Seems likely that I had something set or unset on my profile that may have prevented contact.

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Re: The Linn forum is officially dead

Post by Gussy » 2018-10-10 19:25

Music Lover wrote:
timster wrote:Maybe a letter to Gilad. I've sent this:
That's a GREAT mail, well done sir!
...and you wonder why the Linn forum has been closed...

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Re: The Linn forum is officially dead

Post by ropedrag » 2018-10-11 03:02

First rule of business. The costumer is always right.
Second rule of business. See first rule.

Anyway, I told Giliad in person 2 years ago that Linn has not changed my life, HOWEVER, Linn has without doubt added pleasure to it. Today I'm thinking... Linn giveth, Linn taketh away. For me the forum was a part of the experience of being a Linn owner, the experience is now changed and a detraction from the enjoyment. With the amount of money, effort and passion I have into my system its a big deal to me having that connection to others. And to make myself clear, a company that shows blatant disregard for this aspect has less to offer me.

That said, I have to wonder what 5 tundra's would sound like in my system....

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Re: The Linn forum is officially dead

Post by Ozzzy189 » 2018-10-11 07:05

There's plenty of people who wondered the very same thing. OK, maybe not with 5 although there's been a few multiple tundra stereo owners, and the general consensus was that it was a very worthwhile upgrade from their previous amplifiers.
I'd be salty about the linn forum too if i was a die hard. The fact that there's still going to be a little area on wam is of small consolation as the intent from the company is there for all to see.
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Re: The Linn forum is officially dead

Post by donuk » 2018-10-11 08:13

Actually without being morbid I think it is all part of dumbing down of the audio industry to stay alive.

Actually I can foresee Naim and Linn no longer existing in ten years' time because of

1) company follies
2) the changes in home entertainment
3) the forthcoming financial crisis in the UK

Hope I'm wrong.

Donuk sunny downtown York
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Re: The Linn forum is officially dead

Post by timster » 2018-10-11 08:47

donuk wrote:Actually without being morbid I think it is all part of dumbing down of the audio industry to stay alive.

Actually I can foresee Naim and Linn no longer existing in ten years' time because of

1) company follies
2) the changes in home entertainment
3) the forthcoming financial crisis in the UK

Hope I'm wrong.

Donuk sunny downtown York
The continuing crisis. I don't think much has fully recovered to pre-2008 levels. Things can only get.... I really don't know, but I wouldn't bet much on "better".

Dumbing down doesn't only apply to the audio industry of course. Most if not all aspects of society (whatever that is) has had the unfortunate tendency to look down rather than up, and backward rather than forward. Mass market economics and ill-informed majority rule doesn't always produce the most edifying outcome.
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Re: The Linn forum is officially dead

Post by Defender » 2018-10-11 09:22

donuk wrote:Actually without being morbid I think it is all part of dumbing down of the audio industry to stay alive.

Actually I can foresee Naim and Linn no longer existing in ten years' time because of

1) company follies
2) the changes in home entertainment
3) the forthcoming financial crisis in the UK

Hope I'm wrong.

Donuk sunny downtown York
there is a change in the industry (not only audio) - more and more things are now available to everyone - everythere. In the past companies had to develop their own modules/products completely - the ones with the biggest experience, best staff and the best contact to their customers have been leading.

Now companies buy modules externally. The competitor buys the same - no differentiation here. Implementation and software algorithms make the difference.

With respect to audio more and more companies just use the DAC modules available as they are. LINN at least doesnt let the DAC do the digital filtering and uses their own method.
However most of the advances from Katalyst in my opinion just came with the new chipset used. Actually my feeling with Akurate Katalyst is that they even used the standard output circuit design to a big part as recommended in the AKM user manual.
I didnt saw the circuit in real life but I wouldnt be surprised to find the OPA 612 which AKM recommended in their example output stage in the manual.
The issue is if you concentrate more and more on digital you lose the profound knowledge needed in analog circuit design - which is also needed in digital circuit design.
A statement like "DVC is better than a Pre Amp" tells a story. "We couldnt make the Klimax Kontrol any better."

In this light disconnecting with their customers (which show a very close connection to Linn in investing time in the forum) is strange move.

However thats why I am happy that they obviously thought of it and have a selection people for a more private forum. Even though some - like me - are criticising. But you only do in case you want something to change.

Some just draw their opinion and go elsewhere ... thats the silent death.
Last edited by Defender on 2018-10-11 09:23, edited 1 time in total.

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