Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

General HiFi discussion, using the Tune Method to evaluate performance

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Peter@57m
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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Peter@57m » 2018-10-05 20:05

phino wrote:
Nope, the latest release is just a different directory:

Beta: https://products.linn.co.uk/VersionInfo/Downloads/Beta/
Release: https://products.linn.co.uk/VersionInfo ... /Releases/

You'll notice there's no Selekt firmware in there.
There may be. All the new ones are in the form Fwnnn_4.64.238.zip So probably one of those numbers is for SeleKt

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by fredrik » 2018-10-05 20:19

donuk wrote:Is it my stupidity, but I cannot find anywhere in the new scheme of things to put in the height of the speaker stands, i.e distance from bottom of speaker to the floor. Anyone found this?
Or do they now reckon this is not now significant.

And, calculations will not work at all today....

Donuk sunny downtown York.
Hi click on top right corner, you can also enter toe-in angle.
height.JPG
height.JPG (55.23 KiB) Viewed 3430 times
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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by phino » 2018-10-05 20:30

The point is that I suspect there will be no manually downloadable firmware before long.

To be sure, you'd need to maintain a computer, ensure it receives no OS updates and keep on that a version of Konfig and firmware that you can revert to/restore.

There's no maintenance required for the old Davaar firmwares. Konfig will not allow an incorrect version to be uploaded to any given device, so the only overhead is storage.

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by phino » 2018-10-05 20:38

Peter@57m wrote:
phino wrote:
Nope, the latest release is just a different directory:

Beta: https://products.linn.co.uk/VersionInfo/Downloads/Beta/
Release: https://products.linn.co.uk/VersionInfo ... /Releases/

You'll notice there's no Selekt firmware in there.
There may be. All the new ones are in the form Fwnnn_4.64.238.zip So probably one of those numbers is for SeleKt
According to the Exakt version info thingy: http://static.linnapi.com/exaktV2/ExaktWebView.html# (Go to Advanced and the Firmware), Select is PCAS981. I know that's Exakt and not Davaar, so it may be a different board for the Exakt component - but there's isn't a 981 firmware in the release directory.

I'm referring to the Konfig manual - see section 3.3 and the bit about Selekt in particular:
http://docs.linn.co.uk/wiki/index.php/K ... l#Advanced

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by phino » 2018-10-05 21:58

For those interested in the new SO and don't mind tinkering a bit, you can see what filters the new SO is coming up with - but it's a bit of a faff to get to.

Konfig creates a log of everything you do - and in that log is a copy of the current SO profile which it downloads from your DS. On a PC this is in c:\<{username}>\AppData\Roaming\Linn\Konfig\UserLog.txt

What you need to do is to
  • Close Konfig and apply your SO v2.0 from the web interface (if it's not already applied).
    Open Konfig, wait for it to discover your DS, then close it again.
    Open the UserLog.txt file
    Delete all of the text up to (but not including) <Optimisation
    Delete all of the text that comes after </Optimisation>
    Save the file on your desktop as an XML file, so MyNewSO.xml for instance.
Open the XML file in a browser and you'll see the new filters it's come up with. Unfortunately it's not really possible to create an old SO profile that replicates the new as the left and right channels are radically different (at least in my case). Previously the frequency and bandwidth of each mode filter were identical between left and right speakers, now it seems they can be different (which makes sense).

Now - the new SO takes MUCH shallower cuts (but typically over a much wider bandwidth) than the old for my setup. Here's the calculated values for my system using the old SO:

Left Speaker:
Mode 1: 44.68 Hz, -34.6, 0.120416
Mode 2: 59.84 Hz, -13.63, 0.089918
Mode 3: 75.90 Hz, 0
Mode 4: 79.61 Hz, -28.85, 0.067587

Right Speaker:
Mode 1: 44.68 Hz, -33.75, 0.120416
Mode 2: 59.84 Hz, 0
Mode 3: 75.90 Hz, -12.56, 0.70887
Mode 4: 79.61 Hz, -18.62, 0.067587


For SO v2 (with a more accurate room layout admittedly) I get:

Left Speaker:
Mode 1: 43.457 Hz, -19.177, 0.448749
Mode 2: 51.270 Hz, -7.646, 0.188036
Mode 3: 82.030 Hz, -12.751, 0.370522

Right Speaker:
Mode 1: 43.457 Hz, -7.184, 0.229523
Mode 2: 50.780 Hz, -13.192, 1.656257
Mode 3: 61.035 Hz, -0.4, 0.105267

Make of that what you will! Interestingly the basic format of the Optimisation profile is more-or-less the same. There is still provision for four custom filters and there are still 'Adjusted' versions of each of the calculated filters - so there is still some (slight!) hope that at some point Linn will re-introduce the capability to fine tune.

Edit - the bandwidths in the XML file are in Q values - you need to convert them back into Octaves for them to make sense compared with what you see in Konfig.

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Jumanji » 2018-10-05 22:17

phino wrote:
Previously the frequency and bandwidth of each mode filter were identical between left and right speakers, now it seems they can be different (which makes sense).
Impressive, thanks Phino.

One correction though, different frequencies and bandwith for left and right speakers had been possible for quite some time. In my asymmetrical room I have tons of them...
Your modes 2 and 3 in your SO 1.0 version are actually examples of it ;-)

J.

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Peter@57m » 2018-10-05 22:35

phino wrote:For those interested in the new SO and don't mind tinkering a bit, you can see what filters the new SO is coming up with - but it's a bit of a faff to get to.
Great detective work Phino. Next you’ll produce something to print it ;-)

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by sunbeamgls » 2018-10-05 22:36

Very useful thanks phino.

So the dip shapes are visualisable, if not visible :)
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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Peter@57m » 2018-10-05 22:49

phino wrote:
Peter@57m wrote:
phino wrote:
Nope, the latest release is just a different directory:

Beta: https://products.linn.co.uk/VersionInfo/Downloads/Beta/
Release: https://products.linn.co.uk/VersionInfo ... /Releases/

You'll notice there's no Selekt firmware in there.
There may be. All the new ones are in the form Fwnnn_4.64.238.zip So probably one of those numbers is for SeleKt
According to the Exakt version info thingy: http://static.linnapi.com/exaktV2/ExaktWebView.html# (Go to Advanced and the Firmware), Select is PCAS981. I know that's Exakt and not Davaar, so it may be a different board for the Exakt component - but there's isn't a 981 firmware in the release directory.

I'm referring to the Konfig manual - see section 3.3 and the bit about Selekt in particular:
http://docs.linn.co.uk/wiki/index.php/K ... l#Advanced
The first link takes me to a page about speakers, no sign of Advanced (may be a limitation of iPad)
The second link goes to Konfig manual which won’t apply to Selekt as it will only use the web interface for SO V2. It does mention Sekrit in there but not Selekt as far as I can see (it’s getting late)
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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by phino » 2018-10-05 22:51

Jumanji wrote:
phino wrote:
Previously the frequency and bandwidth of each mode filter were identical between left and right speakers, now it seems they can be different (which makes sense).
Impressive, thanks Phino.

One correction though, different frequencies and bandwith for left and right speakers had been possible for quite some time. In my asymmetrical room I have tons of them...
Your modes 2 and 3 in your SO 1.0 version are actually examples of it ;-)

J.
Hi Jumanji,

Thanks - I bet Linn won't be too chuffed that there's a way of seeing into the black box though! If they'd kept their forum open and didn't like the post, they could've deleted it... but they didn't.

In my SO 1.0 figures, mode 2 is left speaker only, mode 3 is right speaker only. Mode 2 is a tangential LW mode whilst mode 3 is left speaker only and is an axial height mode.

So, old SO:
1: L(1)
2: L(1)W(1)
3: H(1)
4: W(2)

In the new SO, the terminology seems to have changed.
Previously you'd have an X, Y and Z value to indicate the direction, so my SO V1 modes were:
1 would be X1 Y0 Z0 (L)
2 would be X1 Y1 Z0 (LW)
3 would be X0 Y0 Z1 (H)
4 would be X0 Y2 Z0 (W 2nd order)

In the new so the X Y and Z figures appear to be simply counting eg:
1 is X0 Y0 Z0 (so wouldn't be a mode at all!)
2 is X1 Y1 Z1 (so would be an oblique LWH)
3 is X2 Y2 Z2 (so would be an oblique LWH 2nd order)

It probably needs more than a single sample to be definitive, but they appear to have stopped logging the type of room mode and are using it for another purpose.

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by phino » 2018-10-05 23:25

sunbeamgls wrote:Very useful thanks phino.

So the dip shapes are visualisable, if not visible :)
Weeeeeeell... as I only have a simple room and only three room modes - and as SO V1/Konfig allow four custom modes: Here's a visualisation - as best as I can manage:

As Calculated by ye-olde SO:
SO-Comparison---SO-v1.jpg
SO-Comparison---SO-v1.jpg (60.76 KiB) Viewed 3341 times
As cobbled from SO v2:
SO-Comparison-SO-V2.jpg
SO-Comparison-SO-V2.jpg (68.02 KiB) Viewed 3341 times
Looks pretty radical to me?

ps. Wow - adding pictures is tons easier than on the Linn forum!!!

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Wolfie » 2018-10-05 23:42

So with an accessible XML file it should be possible to edit that file to tweak stuff, albeit in a not-very-fancy way...

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by sunbeamgls » 2018-10-05 23:48

Cool stuff phino, thanks, quite complex.

How did you create the v2 graph please?
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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by phino » 2018-10-05 23:50

Wolfie wrote:So with an accessible XML file it should be possible to edit that file to tweak stuff, albeit in a not-very-fancy way...

Mick
Afraid not! You can extract the XML file from Konfig's log file, but you have no way to upload it back into the DS. Unless you reverse engineer how Konfig uploads an optimisation of course!
Even with the current SO profile files, you can make minor edits to them, but they have to be to the 'adjusted filters' elements and even then the changes have to be within the limitations imposed by Konfig (+-2Hz, +-100% depth, +-10% bandwidth). Konfig does a sense check on opening the files and reapplies those limits, so you can't override them.

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by phino » 2018-10-05 23:53

sunbeamgls wrote:Cool stuff phino, thanks, quite complex.

How did you create the v2 graph please?
Simply by zeroing the calculated values then entering the three values from the left channel in to custom mode 1 to 3 create a left graph. Repeat for the right and overlay one graph on top of the other in Photoshop. A bit of re-colouring and job done.

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by sunbeamgls » 2018-10-06 00:01

phino wrote:
sunbeamgls wrote:Cool stuff phino, thanks, quite complex.

How did you create the v2 graph please?
Simply by zeroing the calculated values then entering the three values from the left channel in to custom mode 1 to 3 create a left graph. Repeat for the right and overlay one graph on top of the other in Photoshop. A bit of re-colouring and job done.
:)
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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Gussy » 2018-10-06 07:53

In SO V2 is it possible to set all nodes to 0db (as in V1)?

Thanks!

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by timster » 2018-10-06 08:13

phino wrote:
timster wrote:
phino wrote:It seems that firmware updates for the Selekt are applied directly from the internet, there's no intermediate storage on the computer hosting Konfig. I expect the other DSs will follow suit in a later Davaar update. That'll be an end to people collecting (and sharing) their favourite version of Davaar, whether Beta or release.
Probably another of those things people did that Linn were uncomfortable with along with the "non-standard" applications of SO.

It's all very well, but what happens when they've upset so many customers that they go under, leaving lots of people with kit that can't be re-set up on account of there being no "cloud" support any more? Slippery slope...
From memory, the downloadable firmwares have always been previous versions, not the current one.
Nope, the latest release is just a different directory:

Beta: https://products.linn.co.uk/VersionInfo/Downloads/Beta/
Release: https://products.linn.co.uk/VersionInfo ... /Releases/

You'll notice there's no Selekt firmware in there.
For "latest release" I meant latest stable release. That Beta download link only ever contains the current Beta, if there is one, and that link shows there isn't currently a Beta.
The fact there is no Selekt in release downloads at the moment and yet there is a current Davaar 65 for it, kind of proves my point ;)
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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by timster » 2018-10-06 08:21

Peter@57m wrote:
phino wrote:
Nope, the latest release is just a different directory:

Beta: https://products.linn.co.uk/VersionInfo/Downloads/Beta/
Release: https://products.linn.co.uk/VersionInfo ... /Releases/

You'll notice there's no Selekt firmware in there.
There may be. All the new ones are in the form Fwnnn_4.64.238.zip So probably one of those numbers is for SeleKt
Davaar 65 is for Selekt: http://docs.linn.co.uk/wiki/index.php/ReleaseNotes

The nnn is the PCAS number of the primary board - or the first 3 figures anyway. My AEDSM/ASH is PCAS901 so (and apologies to phino) actually the current releases are in the downloads link. Not sure why the Selekt isn't in there, obviously without knowing the Fwnnn it would be hard to tell. But there aren't any Davaar 65s in there.
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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by timster » 2018-10-06 08:30

Gussy wrote:In SO V2 is it possible to set all nodes to 0db (as in V1)?

Thanks!
The only time you'd want to do that is with Exakt/SO+. Non-Exakt the effect will be the same as turning SO off.
So the question will become relevant when SO+ v2.0 arrives!
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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Gussy » 2018-10-06 09:49

timster wrote:
Gussy wrote:In SO V2 is it possible to set all nodes to 0db (as in V1)?

Thanks!
The only time you'd want to do that is with Exakt/SO+. Non-Exakt the effect will be the same as turning SO off.
So the question will become relevant when SO+ v2.0 arrives!
Aha! Thanks for that Timster.

I’m using SO+ switched on but with all the nodes at 0db. I’m looking forward to trying the new SO+ but am a bit worried about the limited options for manual adjustment....

Just have to wait and see...

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Wolfie » 2018-10-06 10:04

phino wrote:
Wolfie wrote:So with an accessible XML file it should be possible to edit that file to tweak stuff, albeit in a not-very-fancy way...

Mick
Afraid not! You can extract the XML file from Konfig's log file, but you have no way to upload it back into the DS. Unless you reverse engineer how Konfig uploads an optimisation of course!
Even with the current SO profile files, you can make minor edits to them, but they have to be to the 'adjusted filters' elements and even then the changes have to be within the limitations imposed by Konfig (+-2Hz, +-100% depth, +-10% bandwidth). Konfig does a sense check on opening the files and reapplies those limits, so you can't override them.
Ah of course - no way to upload the tweaked file...
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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by donuk » 2018-10-06 10:21

Any ideas where the SO2 files are kept on a Mac?
Donuk
Last edited by donuk on 2018-10-06 10:23, edited 1 time in total.
Donuk

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by timster » 2018-10-06 10:23

phino wrote: ...
I'm referring to the Konfig manual - see section 3.3 and the bit about Selekt in particular:
http://docs.linn.co.uk/wiki/index.php/K ... l#Advanced
Hmm, thanks for the pointer. Explains why there is no package for the Selekt if there's no way to load it!
I somehow doubt they'll do the same for existing products. There are still some on pre Davaar 50 because they want non-Exakt surround support, or Jukebox etc.
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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by donuk » 2018-10-06 10:26

I may be talking rubbish but is there not a way of making a modified SO2 file look like an SO1 file and go into Konfig, space, open, inport and then load it into the new browser software as if it were a genuine "old" configuration?

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