The meaning of Source First

[Lego]

In the 1900's, it was normal with source first systems if you had limited funding.
Ivor understood the importance of pushing dealers using source first and single speaker demonstrations.

I presume that didn't go as far as non-Linn amps and speakers though, or would he have advocated lower cost NAD/AR18s with LP12, as an example?

Source first = Ivor advocated the source. Amps/speakers were not an interesting subject.

I really appreciated the dedication back then - if was music only. Nothing about specs, design or sound-related words. Just musicality.
Linn was an unique company.

Yeah and the current speaker designer for Linn, Phil something at an interview for the job said his main goal is to design a flat response speaker!!??. Though i did hear someone say the Isobariks were inspired by JBL's

[Music Lover]

What is a flat response speaker?

[Lego]

What is a flat response speaker?

Do people still ask questions ?
http://www.centerpointaudio.com/HowToUn ... Graph.aspx

[Music Lover]

It was a rhetorical question :)
Specifications are not related to musicality.

[Lego]

It was a rhetorical question :)
Specifications are not related to musicality.

That's a relief ..sorry ML not use to irony online lol

[matthias]

How to get it wrong:

https://www.audiostream.com/content/hi- ... cording-me

But the last sentence gives hope.......

Matt

[Tendaberry]

At least one of the comments concluded, that the file format is more important than room, speakers etc.
Otherwise we would have wound up with an MP3 on an iphone into a Pioneer receiver and KEF Blades in the best room possible sounding better than a 24/192 FLAC into a KDS, Sagatun, Tundras and your favourite JBL's in a less than perfect room...

[ThomasOK]

How to get it wrong:

https://www.audiostream.com/content/hi- ... cording-me

But the last sentence gives hope.......

Matt

And people wonder why you can't trust reviewers!

[sunbeamgls]

Yeah and the current speaker designer for Linn, Phil something at an interview for the job said his main goal is to design a flat response speaker!!??.

No, my understanding is that it was linear phase.

[sunbeamgls]

How to get it wrong:

https://www.audiostream.com/content/hi- ... cording-me

But the last sentence gives hope.......

Matt

That link has quite a few contradictions. Particularly the last sentence in contrast to where 'other stuff' is placed in the priority order.

But the crucial part is the refernce to 'sound'. The priority list is possibly OK if all you want to do is think about sound, as speakers and interactions with the room do generally have a large impact on sound.
However, if you want to address musicality, the list is clearly lacking.

[Ozzzy189]

I have just read this entire thread and pretty much the one main thing I can get from all of this is that linn are no longer a source first company and are losing their way and direction. And I'm not here to bash them, I'm very frustrated but not with that company.
So that leaves us with Freddie boy, who unfortunately still doesn't make a source.
This is why I believe that the streamer is a going to be his biggest ever headache, a cluster migraine maker.
A true advocate of ultimately what makes those hairs stand on end on your forearms, the little tear appear in the corner of your eyes and bring a wobble to your voice when you try to explain how you've truly connected to the music you love.
A hifi genius and an electronics engineer that makes more engaging and musical equipment to deliver us the music that we have to have in our lives. He has created truly astounding products, unmatched in their price bracket and showing up many of the big boys costing far more in my humble opinion.
I don't like to use the price in the comparison but for the vast majority it's can't be overlooked.
So why am I frustrated? Well a couple of things really.
There no Lejonklou streamer yet. For someone who's set the bar so highly and continues to raise it with every new upgrade, tweak and product launch, a new streamer scares me. I'm pretty sure it's scaring Fredrik too. Source first.... He's got to absolutely nail this, or it never gets made.
I'm also frustrated because so many people open their ears instead of their minds. Music is something you feel, not something you hear.
Maybe then more people would be buying these unassuming little black boxes.
Fredrik I salute you, the streamer will be done when it's done, and if that's never? Well that's fine with me.

[Charlie1]

It's great that Lejonklou products exist and can provide another outlet for those of us that value tunedem. If anything, Fredrik is taking things further than Linn.

Regarding a steamer, I agree that it's best to get things right first time, rather than rush them out. I don't know much about digital but it sounds like a HiFi developers nightmare.

I wouldn't say Linn is no longer a source first company. The past 10 years of LP12 development has been spot on, but I do share your concerns reference some other areas.

[matthias]

I wouldn't say Linn is no longer a source first company.

Agree.
Linn have very good sources.
The Klimax DS with Katalyst is a benchmark for streamers like the LP12 for turntables.
But I hope the Lejonklou streamer will be even better.

Matt

[Ozzzy189]

But didn't they encourage customers to buy a balanced system, all majik or akurate components for example? I know a good dealer might have suggested otherwise but the cost of the all akurate system could have been spent on building from the top (of the budget limit) down. Things have changed now obviously, the box count has been slashed and more other 'features' to make the sound supposedly better were added. Anyway, I wanted to say what I already have and don't want to get bogged down talking about linn, yes I know I brought it up!
Buying into Lejonklou changed my whole perception and appreciation of music and hifi and was one of the main reasons I don't post much anymore, and why I left the linn forum.
I don't need to, I just enjoy what I have and don't really care or worry about what else is out there knowing that I made the the best choice I could for what I had to spend. The fact that I can improve that every now and then for a relatively small outlay that doesn't render any current units redundant or not as good is the icing on the rather tasty Swedish cake.

[matthias]

But didn't they encourage customers to buy a balanced system, all majik or akurate components for example? I know a good dealer might have suggested otherwise but the cost of the all akurate system could have been spent on building from the top (of the budget limit) down.

You made a valid point, but the customer can anyway buy with a source first POV.
So I would prefer a KDS (Katalyst) with Boazu to an ADS with Sagatun Monos.

Matt

[ThomasOK]

I see what Ozzzy is saying. There is a significant difference between making superior sources, which Linn certainly does with both the LP12 and the Klimax DS3 (Katalyst), and following the Source First hierarchy in company attitude, as indicated by advertising, promotion and even product development.

I think we are all glad to have Fredrik around to push the quality of our love affair with reproduced music forward. As I think we are glad that David Williamson and his team is developing LP12 upgrades and the team who developed Katalyst are doing their work to bring us closer to music as well

As I have mentioned in my latest RMAF 2017 update, the streamer is still a ways off and will not be shown in October. It is a monstrous task to make a really good networked digital streamer, much less one at the level Fredrik demands in one of his products. I have faith that he will get there but nobody has made a worthwhile one, much less a really good one, without years of product development. When it does see the light of day I would expect it to be stunning.

[sunbeamgls]

I wonder what the priority is for the streamer?

Does it have to be the most musical streamer available? Or will it be enough to say that its the most musical streamer at a particular price point? Will it have to be more expensive than a set of mono electronics to make it a source first investment? Or just more expensive than a Boazu? Will price matter at all, given that "most musical" is really not always a price dependent attribute? Perhaps it just has to outperform a KDS/3, regardless of its price.

Fun to speculate.

[matthias]

I wonder what the priority is for the streamer?

Does it have to be the most musical streamer available? Or will it be enough to say that its the most musical streamer at a particular price point? Will it have to be more expensive than a set of mono electronics to make it a source first investment? Or just more expensive than a Boazu? Will price matter at all, given that "most musical" is really not always a price dependent attribute? Perhaps it just has to outperform a KDS/3, regardless of its price.

Fun to speculate.

Fredriks comment from the Lejonklou Streamer thread:

My goal with this project is to set a new standard for digital music reproduction. Why so high, you may rightfully ask. Because I've tried many acclaimed streamers and after an initial feeling of satisfaction, I am soon bored and return to my vinyl. I am convinced that digital done right can be better than vinyl - and that's what this product needs to prove.

I should also add that I've never embarked on a more difficult project. So many unexpected surprises - mainly of the character "how on earth can THAT have an impact on the music??". It seems impossible to know when we're done.

[lejonklou]

There no Lejonklou streamer yet. For someone who's set the bar so highly and continues to raise it with every new upgrade, tweak and product launch, a new streamer scares me. I'm pretty sure it's scaring Fredrik too. Source first.... He's got to absolutely nail this, or it never gets made.
I'm also frustrated because so many people open their ears instead of their minds. Music is something you feel, not something you hear.
Maybe then more people would be buying these unassuming little black boxes.
Fredrik I salute you, the streamer will be done when it's done, and if that's never? Well that's fine with me.

Thank you Ozzzy! Indeed I'm scared.

I should update you all on where I'm currently at, in the Lejonklou Streamer thread. I just don't know how to summarise it all.