Hi!
Has anybody listened to the AVI ADM-9 active loudspeaker? It´s got internal power amps and crossovers inside, and even a line pre-amp.
What makes a vinyl junkie like me curious is the following possible "free" change:
From: Lingo II, Trampolin, lp12, Ekos II, Adikt, Kairn, 3xKlout, active Kaber
To: Lingo II, LP12, KEEL, NEW TRAMPOLIN, Ekos II, Adikt, SLIPSIK III, AVI ADM-9 (active)
Except for paying 1000 GBP (+stands) for the ADM-9, I could make the change without spending a penny, trading the Kairn, 3xKlouts and Kaber for the Keel, Slipsik III and New Trampolin.
DO or DON'T?
Best regards
Lake
AVI ADM-9 with LP12?
Moderator: Staff
Having read the speaker descriptions and specs, and the refreshingly sensible articles on their web site (I particularly approve of the page devoted to their now discontinued DAB tuner http://www.avihifi.co.uk/Dab/dab.html) I'd be inclined to give them a try.
Oh, and "Kettle Leads - An audiophile Study" (http://www.avihifi.co.uk/Important/kettle.html) is definitely an important contribution.
Oh, and "Kettle Leads - An audiophile Study" (http://www.avihifi.co.uk/Important/kettle.html) is definitely an important contribution.
If they are good they would certainly be a very interesting alternative (for me as well, we could actually end up with identical systems). Having read through a few pages on their web, it's obvious that they don't have a source first-approach. And then they probably wont have the same view on musicality (or evaluation of musicality) as we try to have here (although I like their political view). But of course the speakers can be good any way! Is there really no one here who have listened to them?
In the interest of full disclosure I will start out saying that the sister company to the store I work in is the US importer and distributor of AVI. So you can decide how big a grain of salt to take my comments with.
We have the ADM-9s on demo and they are a quite good sounding speaker. They definitely have the active benefits of great dynamics and a sense of ease and, like all of AVI's small speakers, they have unexpected bass power for their size. I do find them to be a tuneful speaker along with their smaller brother the Neutron IV (which I actually prefer a bit over Katans).
As to the AVI philosophy, what can you say - it's Ashley. They definitely are anti the source-first philosophy. They will also tell you that midrange dome drivers can't possibly work - something Ashley wouldn't have said back when he worked for ATC! But the various rants are interesting to read. And despite all of it they do make some quite good products.
As to the original question, I would have a hard time recommending the ADM-9s as an outright replacement for Aktiv Kabers/Klouts. But when you put the Keel, Trampolin2 and Slipsik III into the equation (all of which are considerably better than the pieces they replace) I have a hard time not saying "go for it!". I would think that an improvement to the source of the degree you are talking about would definitely give a more musically enjoyable system.
We have the ADM-9s on demo and they are a quite good sounding speaker. They definitely have the active benefits of great dynamics and a sense of ease and, like all of AVI's small speakers, they have unexpected bass power for their size. I do find them to be a tuneful speaker along with their smaller brother the Neutron IV (which I actually prefer a bit over Katans).
As to the AVI philosophy, what can you say - it's Ashley. They definitely are anti the source-first philosophy. They will also tell you that midrange dome drivers can't possibly work - something Ashley wouldn't have said back when he worked for ATC! But the various rants are interesting to read. And despite all of it they do make some quite good products.
As to the original question, I would have a hard time recommending the ADM-9s as an outright replacement for Aktiv Kabers/Klouts. But when you put the Keel, Trampolin2 and Slipsik III into the equation (all of which are considerably better than the pieces they replace) I have a hard time not saying "go for it!". I would think that an improvement to the source of the degree you are talking about would definitely give a more musically enjoyable system.
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Lake Jorgen
- Member
- Posts: 16
- Joined: 2008-02-14 16:38
Ok
Thanks for the useful comments,
Ironically, the non-source first company could actually leed way to a more severe source first system than the source first company probably would recommend ...
Anyhow, a good friend of mine has already made up his mind going for ADM-9 speakers – unheard. And that will give me a chance to at least listen to them before I make up my mind. He will make the order as soon as they upgrade it with the latest, reference Wolfson DAC.
For him, it's most certainly a no brainer. Today, his system consists of a computer hard drive connected to an "esoteric" valve(!) DAC through some big Dynaudio "test winning" floorstanders. I listened to it the other day, and frankly ... it was terrible! I never get why people like Dynaudios. The only time they sound nice is when you feed them with some hifi crap demo discs – the stuff that would make any system sound like the holy grail. It's got to be one of the least musical, "serious" loudspeakers out there. But maybe it's just me ... having had nothing but Linn the last 20 years ...
Cheers!
Lake
Ironically, the non-source first company could actually leed way to a more severe source first system than the source first company probably would recommend ...
Anyhow, a good friend of mine has already made up his mind going for ADM-9 speakers – unheard. And that will give me a chance to at least listen to them before I make up my mind. He will make the order as soon as they upgrade it with the latest, reference Wolfson DAC.
For him, it's most certainly a no brainer. Today, his system consists of a computer hard drive connected to an "esoteric" valve(!) DAC through some big Dynaudio "test winning" floorstanders. I listened to it the other day, and frankly ... it was terrible! I never get why people like Dynaudios. The only time they sound nice is when you feed them with some hifi crap demo discs – the stuff that would make any system sound like the holy grail. It's got to be one of the least musical, "serious" loudspeakers out there. But maybe it's just me ... having had nothing but Linn the last 20 years ...
Cheers!
Lake
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Lake Jorgen
- Member
- Posts: 16
- Joined: 2008-02-14 16:38
ADM9 with LP12
I do use ADM9s with my LP12. In full disclosure I am a customer at the dealer where ThomasOK works, and ordered them before ever hearing them, and I absolutely love the combination. I had the AVI preamp for three years, and used it with ATC active 20s and Passive Ninkas in that time. I liked both speakers, but found the ATCs a little bright for my liking, and the Ninkas did not have much depth to the soundstage. I wanted to get the AVI amp and Duo speakers, but could not afford both when I heard about the ADM9s. I have not regretted it for a minute. To me they perform just fine with tunedem, but give me the soundstage that I like. The bass is impressive considering by listening room is 12m by 4m. I have never compared them directly to Neutrons IVs, but they do not seem as bright, and the bass is deeper with the ADM9s. Lake, I am also hoping to take the money I saved and get the Keel this year.
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Lake Jorgen
- Member
- Posts: 16
- Joined: 2008-02-14 16:38
Thanks Radar for the input.
I'm also interested in a "volume issue" that I read about somewhere on a forum. Apparently, If I remember correctly, the writer noticed a volume drop listening to the ADM-9 with a turntable/phono stage connected. Could it be that the line stage in the ADM-9 is designed for higher input, cd signals rather than analogue? To me it sounds more like he had the phono stage set wrong or using the wrong cart for it, but I'm no technician. Is this something you recognize at all?
By the way, what phono stage are you using?
Lake
I'm also interested in a "volume issue" that I read about somewhere on a forum. Apparently, If I remember correctly, the writer noticed a volume drop listening to the ADM-9 with a turntable/phono stage connected. Could it be that the line stage in the ADM-9 is designed for higher input, cd signals rather than analogue? To me it sounds more like he had the phono stage set wrong or using the wrong cart for it, but I'm no technician. Is this something you recognize at all?
By the way, what phono stage are you using?
Lake
The construction don't seem to give any option of not using the internal pre amp. Looking at the connections and options on this page: http://www.avihifi.co.uk/avid/avidspecs.html I would definitely consider buying two left speakers and use with a separate pre amp. I don't like the idea that the signal to the left speaker have to pass through one extra (long) run of cable.
Re: Ok
I would rather expect the main reason for a bad sounding system to be inferior sources, electronics etc. In my (somewhat limited) experience I have found most speakers, if not really crappy designed, to be possible to get to sound quite good when feed by high quality sources. Although I have limited experience with Dynaudio (I have heard a couple of models at several occasions) I do not consider them to be that crappy!Lake Jorgen wrote:..., his system consists of a computer hard drive connected to an "esoteric" valve(!) DAC through some big Dynaudio "test winning" floorstanders. I listened to it the other day, and frankly ... it was terrible! I never get why people like Dynaudios. ...
Interestingly enough, if your friends system improves when changing speakers, it might infact implicate that the new speakers are worse (less accurate) than the predecessors or that the old amplification are really crappy. Keep us posted!
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Lake Jorgen
- Member
- Posts: 16
- Joined: 2008-02-14 16:38
Concerning my friend's system – I forgot to mention his amp. He has a well regarded Primare integrated (the biggest one) driving the Dynaudios.
Perhaps it's unfair to compare his set up with own, active Linn LP12 system, which is well set up and sound amazing. I rarely hear something that I would rather like. To upgrade the whole system (keeping the source as is) – I think I would have to go for active Majik 140, at least, but probably Akurate 242 to make it worthwhile. And that would be expensive! Which is the reason for my original post above. A different route, focusing mainly on the LP12 upgrades alone.
(I do however, feel that Akurates are very, very good. A different "sound" compared to older Linn speakers, but darned how well they play music!)
Please, take my comments about Dynaudio with a grain of salt. I haven't evaluated them in a tune dem, just briefly listened to their "sound", just as I have briefly listened to the "sound" of Harbeth and Living Voice and enjoyed them quite well. Just so you know I am not slagging off everything but Linn.
Cheers
Lake
Perhaps it's unfair to compare his set up with own, active Linn LP12 system, which is well set up and sound amazing. I rarely hear something that I would rather like. To upgrade the whole system (keeping the source as is) – I think I would have to go for active Majik 140, at least, but probably Akurate 242 to make it worthwhile. And that would be expensive! Which is the reason for my original post above. A different route, focusing mainly on the LP12 upgrades alone.
(I do however, feel that Akurates are very, very good. A different "sound" compared to older Linn speakers, but darned how well they play music!)
Please, take my comments about Dynaudio with a grain of salt. I haven't evaluated them in a tune dem, just briefly listened to their "sound", just as I have briefly listened to the "sound" of Harbeth and Living Voice and enjoyed them quite well. Just so you know I am not slagging off everything but Linn.
Cheers
Lake
Lake,
I am currently using a Musical Surrounding Phonomena I bought used to hold me over while I save for the Keel. I have only had it a few days, but it sounds pretty good. I demoed a Rogue Stealth a while ago, and that sound awesome. As to the volume issue I have not had a problem. It sounds so good I usually turn the volume up anyway. I was a little worried about the built in preamp, since I loved the seperate AVI preamp and although I have not done an AB comparison, I do not feel that I am missing anything with the pre in the ADM9s.
I am currently using a Musical Surrounding Phonomena I bought used to hold me over while I save for the Keel. I have only had it a few days, but it sounds pretty good. I demoed a Rogue Stealth a while ago, and that sound awesome. As to the volume issue I have not had a problem. It sounds so good I usually turn the volume up anyway. I was a little worried about the built in preamp, since I loved the seperate AVI preamp and although I have not done an AB comparison, I do not feel that I am missing anything with the pre in the ADM9s.
I've been thinking about replacing my Bonnec Timpano - LK100 - Nexus with ADM9s. A white pair on Sara stands (if they fit) would be sooo good looking! But as tempting as it might be, I feel it's probably a bad idea since I really have a hard time trusting the built-in pre amp compared to the Timpano.
Any comments?
Any comments?
Azazello,
I do not know your pre, but as I mentioned in an earlier post I had the AVI S21 preamp before going to the ADM9s. I loved the AVI preamp for its musicality as well as its ability to reveal low level detail. Having owned the ADM9s since August I cannot complain about the pre in the speakers, it seems to give me everything that I loved about the separate AVI pre.
I do not know your pre, but as I mentioned in an earlier post I had the AVI S21 preamp before going to the ADM9s. I loved the AVI preamp for its musicality as well as its ability to reveal low level detail. Having owned the ADM9s since August I cannot complain about the pre in the speakers, it seems to give me everything that I loved about the separate AVI pre.
I don't have answers to al the questions but here is what I can tell you. I have not compared the built-in preamp to anything external. I'm not sure you could even do this as I don't believe it can be disabled. I doubt AVI will sell you two left speakers so I don't think that is an option.
I have listened to the current AVI preamp and have done comparisons with the Exotik. I felt the AVI S21 to be superior in tune dem to the Exotik which is itself a fair bit more musical than a Kairn. The Exotik and the AVI S21 were close but the AVI was better to me and to several customers. Whether the internal preamp of the ADM-9 is as good as this I can't say.
I do like the ADM-9s more than the Neutron IVs. It is a more balanced speaker with a significantly more extended bass and better power handling. It also has a sense of ease and the superior dynamics that you expect with a well designed active speaker.
As to the question of levels I have not heard of any problem with this. It is quite normal for a phono signal (or that from a tape deck or tuner, for that matter) to play more quietly than a CD player. The normal output for a CD player is 2.0 Volts whereas most other sources put out about .8 Volts. Because of this you normally have to turn up other sources louder than a CD player to acheive the same level. As long as you can get the system to play as loud as you want without overdriving the speaker this shouldn't be a problem. This difference in levels is why all current Linn preamps (and most previous ones) allow you to adjust the sensitivity (or input level) of the various inputs - so that you have about the same volume when you switch from one to another.
I have listened to the current AVI preamp and have done comparisons with the Exotik. I felt the AVI S21 to be superior in tune dem to the Exotik which is itself a fair bit more musical than a Kairn. The Exotik and the AVI S21 were close but the AVI was better to me and to several customers. Whether the internal preamp of the ADM-9 is as good as this I can't say.
I do like the ADM-9s more than the Neutron IVs. It is a more balanced speaker with a significantly more extended bass and better power handling. It also has a sense of ease and the superior dynamics that you expect with a well designed active speaker.
As to the question of levels I have not heard of any problem with this. It is quite normal for a phono signal (or that from a tape deck or tuner, for that matter) to play more quietly than a CD player. The normal output for a CD player is 2.0 Volts whereas most other sources put out about .8 Volts. Because of this you normally have to turn up other sources louder than a CD player to acheive the same level. As long as you can get the system to play as loud as you want without overdriving the speaker this shouldn't be a problem. This difference in levels is why all current Linn preamps (and most previous ones) allow you to adjust the sensitivity (or input level) of the various inputs - so that you have about the same volume when you switch from one to another.
I have not done a direct A/B comparison of the ADM-9 and the Neutron IVs. Since we are talking about an active speaker/amp/preamp/DAC vs. a passive speaker it is difficult to compare them directly. The comments I made about how they compare are based on listening impressions gained after having listened to both products over a period of time with various equipment. I have listened to the Neutron IVs with a number of sources and amps including the Linn ClassikK, Majik CD/Majik Kontrol/Majik 2100, AVI S21 series CD player, preamp and V2 amp and even on the end of a UniDisk 1.1/Klimax Kontrol/Klimax Chakra Twin setup as well as with various Rega and Arcam electronics. As the ADM-9s are newer I haven't heard them with as many different components but I have heard them driven by the Majik CD, AVI S21 CD, Ikemi and Rega Saturn.
I do, however, have some very interesting information on how good the preamp in the ADM-9 is and the answer is that it is quite good indeed. I asked my coworker TJ (the head of Overture Imports) if there was a way to compare the internal preamp to another preamp and he rigged it up so we could do that. It turns out that the subwoofer outputs are really just preamp outs - they are full range outputs. So TJ disconnected the drivers form the amp and we used the ADM-9 as a preamp in a comparison with the Majik Kontrol using the Majik CD as a source and the Majik 2100 amp driving a pair of AVI Duos. TJ did the comparison for a couple of the other guys here while I was out doing an install and repeated it for me when I got back a couple of hours ago. The ADM-9 preamp and the Majik Kontrol are actually very close sonically. I had a slight preference for the Majik Kontrol but I emphasize it was very slight - just a touch more tuneful on the Kontrol. The difference was small enough that I expect many customers would have a hard time telling the two apart - certainly nowhere near the difference between the Kairn and the Majik Kontrol, or even between a Kolektor and a late model Wakonda. The others who did the comparison came to the same conclusions as I did - that the two preamps were very close with a slight nod to the Majik Kontrol. So I feel very safe in saying that the preamp in the ADM-9 would be an improvement over a Kairn or any preamp of lesser quality than that. I have to say that this comparison has elevated my opinion of the ADM-9s even higher - and I was pretty impressed with them already.
I do, however, have some very interesting information on how good the preamp in the ADM-9 is and the answer is that it is quite good indeed. I asked my coworker TJ (the head of Overture Imports) if there was a way to compare the internal preamp to another preamp and he rigged it up so we could do that. It turns out that the subwoofer outputs are really just preamp outs - they are full range outputs. So TJ disconnected the drivers form the amp and we used the ADM-9 as a preamp in a comparison with the Majik Kontrol using the Majik CD as a source and the Majik 2100 amp driving a pair of AVI Duos. TJ did the comparison for a couple of the other guys here while I was out doing an install and repeated it for me when I got back a couple of hours ago. The ADM-9 preamp and the Majik Kontrol are actually very close sonically. I had a slight preference for the Majik Kontrol but I emphasize it was very slight - just a touch more tuneful on the Kontrol. The difference was small enough that I expect many customers would have a hard time telling the two apart - certainly nowhere near the difference between the Kairn and the Majik Kontrol, or even between a Kolektor and a late model Wakonda. The others who did the comparison came to the same conclusions as I did - that the two preamps were very close with a slight nod to the Majik Kontrol. So I feel very safe in saying that the preamp in the ADM-9 would be an improvement over a Kairn or any preamp of lesser quality than that. I have to say that this comparison has elevated my opinion of the ADM-9s even higher - and I was pretty impressed with them already.
I have to agree. As I was on my way home after writing my last post it came to me that ADM-9s are a great product for someone who is combining old and new technologies. Think of this as a kick-ass system:
Majik LP12
Lejonklou Kinki
Mac Mini running iTunes
ADM-9s
You get a really great vinyl system (which can, of course, take any of the LP12 upgrades) and you also have the potential for some really good digital. Rip your CDs in Apple Lossless and run them through the ADM-9 DAC and you will get quite good sound. Not up to Klimax DS standards but still quite good. You also have access to internet radio so you really have all the sources many will need. It really makes a fairly simple, moderately priced system that is tough to beat.
I don't know about elsewhere but in the US corporate greed has all but killed quality radio on the airwaves. Instead of locally owned stations broadcasting interesting mixtures of music we have large conglomerates with tens or hundreds of stations all across the country playing the same musical drivel put together in a central location. And the public radio stations, instead of filling the gap with good eclectic music, are turning more and more to talk radio and news. I have a Pekin at home which sounds quite good but I only use it a couple of times a year (usually for some Christmas music). There is just hardly anything really worth listening to there anymore. Internet radio, on the other hand, has almost endless options for types and mixes of music. Of course, the "music industry" (read: greedy media peddlers) are intent on messing that up by trying to get the US congress to pass laws so that they get royalties every time a piece of music is played on the radio whether over the air or on the internet. The sooner those dinosaurs reach extinction the happier I'll be.
Excuse the rant :oops: but I do have a bit of a hard time with the way the music industry has gone from promoting and enabling musical innovation to stifling it in search of the quickest and highest profits. Far too much of American business has lost sight of the idea that you offer a quality service or product which allows you to make a living. The robber barons running things instead seem only interested in seeing how much productivity they can squeeze out of their employees for the least possible pay so that they can buy ever bigger super-yachts.
I hate to end on a negative note so I will say that I am happy to be part of an industry where there are still companies like Linn, Rega, AVI, ATC, Sonus Faber, REL and others who really are attempting to provide people with musical enjoyment. And where there are people who get joy out of hearing a customer tell them how much they enjoy listening to music on the equipment that was sold to and setup for them.
Majik LP12
Lejonklou Kinki
Mac Mini running iTunes
ADM-9s
You get a really great vinyl system (which can, of course, take any of the LP12 upgrades) and you also have the potential for some really good digital. Rip your CDs in Apple Lossless and run them through the ADM-9 DAC and you will get quite good sound. Not up to Klimax DS standards but still quite good. You also have access to internet radio so you really have all the sources many will need. It really makes a fairly simple, moderately priced system that is tough to beat.
I don't know about elsewhere but in the US corporate greed has all but killed quality radio on the airwaves. Instead of locally owned stations broadcasting interesting mixtures of music we have large conglomerates with tens or hundreds of stations all across the country playing the same musical drivel put together in a central location. And the public radio stations, instead of filling the gap with good eclectic music, are turning more and more to talk radio and news. I have a Pekin at home which sounds quite good but I only use it a couple of times a year (usually for some Christmas music). There is just hardly anything really worth listening to there anymore. Internet radio, on the other hand, has almost endless options for types and mixes of music. Of course, the "music industry" (read: greedy media peddlers) are intent on messing that up by trying to get the US congress to pass laws so that they get royalties every time a piece of music is played on the radio whether over the air or on the internet. The sooner those dinosaurs reach extinction the happier I'll be.
Excuse the rant :oops: but I do have a bit of a hard time with the way the music industry has gone from promoting and enabling musical innovation to stifling it in search of the quickest and highest profits. Far too much of American business has lost sight of the idea that you offer a quality service or product which allows you to make a living. The robber barons running things instead seem only interested in seeing how much productivity they can squeeze out of their employees for the least possible pay so that they can buy ever bigger super-yachts.
I hate to end on a negative note so I will say that I am happy to be part of an industry where there are still companies like Linn, Rega, AVI, ATC, Sonus Faber, REL and others who really are attempting to provide people with musical enjoyment. And where there are people who get joy out of hearing a customer tell them how much they enjoy listening to music on the equipment that was sold to and setup for them.