Sagatun and Sagatun Mono

Sonett · Post by **Sonett** » 2014-08-17 08:24

rowlandhills - I missed your previous thread "Sagatun "Control Breakout" Box?", and so redundantly repeated (!?) much of what you had said. My apologies.

I would delete my previous post, but don't see how. Since it has already been quoted, deletion would only cause confusion anyway, I suppose.

My initial thought was to use existing work (optical interface - I never said "Toslink", and eeprom) as a test and possible workaround for the sonic problems caused by adding the memory features. If the troubleshooting experiment were successful, it creates a cost / marketing problem however. Is the expense of the additional box swallowed, or can it be justified by a price increase or option? Feeling more value needed to be added to justify its existence, I became fanciful. My thoughts were more along the lines of memory and macros - using the eeprom to store sets of combinations, in addition to retaining the previous state. For instance, in a home theater using a brace of Sagatuns, it would be desirable to store different volume offsets for each channel to facilitate relative level matching in the analog domain, while a setting which mutes all but the front left and right would be useful for music, etc. I have probably missed these ideas somewhere already posted. It seems I am far behind the thought curve, as adding network functionality can do so much more besides, and would certainly justify a new break out box product. It should be interesting to see how this all develops.

SaltyDog · Post by **SaltyDog** » 2014-08-17 15:40

A bit beyond the boundaries of this thread, but hey that's the way my brain is taking me.

Do the Linn DSs use EPROM and does it change content from firmware to firmware? Looking for a missing link here.

Thanks

Post by **lejonklou** » 2014-08-17 23:38

Thank you for your thoughts!

The Control Link on Sagatun is based on sending and receiving infrared RC5 commands. That's a common remote control standard. A simplified way of looking at it is that Sagatun has one receiver on the front, a second receiver at the back (Servant) and a sender (like a remote control) at the back (Master).

It's theoretically possible to tweak the firmware into receiving and sending special RC5 commands that make special stuff. A series of such commands could then be stored in an external box that is linked to the Master-Servant chain. In theory, possible (unless Linntek contradicts me!)

To make this box in practice, however... First build it, then make it work flawlessly together with the firmware in Sagatun (probably a bunch of unexpected complications there) and finally create some interface so that you can program it with the settings you want. Lots of work for a very limited task, no? And in addition, we might run out of space in the flash memory where the firmware is stored.

I'd personally rather keep my Sagatun switched on, press a button or two in case it's been switched off, and spend my time on figuring out how to make it sound even better. But that's me!

tokenbrit · Post by **tokenbrit** » 2014-08-18 05:08

lejonklou wrote:I'd personally rather keep my Sagatun switched on, press a button or two in case it's been switched off, and spend my time on figuring out how to make it sound even better. But that's me!

I understand that the unexpected, detrimental effect of saving the settings might lead to discussion, speculation, & ideas how to get around the problem but there's a danger that it becomes a search for a solution in search of a problem. Always on, or 3 button presses? I can live with that. I respect & like the perspective: the *music* comes first :)
Now, where are my Monos? ;)

Post by **lejonklou** » 2014-08-18 13:36

tokenbrit wrote:Always on, or 3 button presses?

Depends on what you want.

Unity Gain? Press the SRC/MUTE button once, when Sagatun is switched on and blinking red.

Max volume 100 instead of 78 on the non-Unity Gain inputs? Press the VOL+ button once during the red blinks.

Limit the types of remote controls that are accepted? This is a setting that few will need. But if you do, press the VOL- button once during the red blinks.

That's all there is. Setting a specific volume and input could be done with a programmable remote, if required.

tokenbrit wrote:Now, where are my Monos? ;)

Not sure. Could it be the one I'm working on right now? If so, it will most likely be shipped later today. Just taking a very short chocolate break now.

tokenbrit · Post by **tokenbrit** » 2014-08-18 14:15

I meant "Always on, or 3 button presses?" rhetorically, more to emphasise that there's already a simple solution (always on) and that it's not a big problem anyway (just 3 button presses).
Enjoy your well earned choccie break. Teasing about the Monos, just really looking forward to them getting here. Take your time - music first :)

ThomasOK · Post by **ThomasOK** » 2014-08-18 22:13

You should feel special. Chocolate enhanced Sagstun Monos for Tokenbrit!

HIDDENSYSTEMS · Post by **HIDDENSYSTEMS** » 2014-08-18 22:28

90% dark chocolate is best
http://authoritynutrition.com/7-health- ... chocolate/

ThomasOK · Post by **ThomasOK** » 2014-08-19 02:31

For me 90% is a but much - might just as well have a teaspoon of cocoa powder. I'm more a 65-70% kinda guy myself. I like a little sweetness and creaminess to it.

tokenbrit · Post by **tokenbrit** » 2014-08-19 04:04

The Sagatuns will be the building blocks in the "delicious construction process" of my system - http://www.boredpanda.com/chocolate-leg ... -mizuuchi/ ... salivating :)

clasch66 · Post by **clasch66** » 2014-08-19 12:22

rowlandhills wrote:Although it's not actually a TOSLINK device, but rather a proprietary link using TOSLINK as a physical connection, Fredrik has previously said on this thread that he would consider making some kind of breakout box to allow network control for DS users.

Given that this would be a device which would handle volume and source selection, it should be able to hand most of what was suggested by Sonett.

Great idea! Shouldn't be a (very) big deal, e.g. take a Raspberry Pi B which can be integrated in the network to receive control point commands which are then output via GPIO through a IR transmitter in RC5 to the slave inputs of the Sagatun. Could further be used to store settings and stuff if firmware would accept further commands. This all integrated in a nice case ... not a bad extension to Sagatun I might guess, especially for DS users.

rowlandhills · Post by **rowlandhills** » 2014-08-19 13:22

I'd find it pretty much impossible to get the rest of my household to agree to a Sagatun as it stands now, since we control everything from Kinsky, not from the remote control!

If Fredrik doesn't want to build it, he could provide details of the control link to allow someone else to build it.

As you say, a Raspberry Pi based solution seems like the easiest route, and although the electronics in the control box would not be optimised for their audio impact, the fact that it's optically linked to the Sagatun should mean no impact on the final sound. (It's possible the PSU for the Raspberry Pi could put noise back on the mains, but it could be fed from elsewhere, or even use a battery to run the device while listening to music (you can get 8-10 hours from a Raspberry Pi model A on a portable USB charger).

Post by **lejonklou** » 2014-08-19 14:56

rowlandhills wrote:If Fredrik doesn't want to build it, he could provide details of the control link to allow someone else to build it.

Sure! There are no secrets around the Control Link.

There is one enthusiast currently looking at a Raspberry Pi-based bridge from network to IR. We'll see what he says. It's a bit more tricky than most people expect, partly because commands are limited to RC5. So for instance, volume is controlled by single steps up and down, not the (dangerous) direct jumps that most control points use.

tokenbrit · Post by **tokenbrit** » 2014-08-19 15:06

As a temporary measure, rowlandhills, you could always use the KRDS on input 4 set to unity gain, and continue to use Kinsky for control... The downside is you'd need to enable the digital volume control in the DS. The upside is that the family's perspective would be the same, and you'd get your Sagatun ;)

clasch66 · Post by **clasch66** » 2014-08-19 15:42

lejonklou wrote: There is one enthusiast currently looking at a Raspberry Pi-based bridge from network to IR. We'll see what he says.

Sure! It would have wondered me if this very straight forward approach was not yet taken by someone. I almost started to investigate a little further on this ;-)

lejonklou wrote: It's a bit more tricky than most people expect, partly because commands are limited to RC5. So for instance, volume is controlled by single steps up and down, not the (dangerous) direct jumps that most control points use.

At first glimpse: In principle you just have to translate the delta to multiple single steps

But: The problem is probably the question of what is the baseline for the delta ;-) both systems had to know the actual number or at least start at the same baseline and hope they do not run apart from each other

Post by **lejonklou** » 2014-08-19 16:09

Now that we're discussing how to control a Sagatun, I have to tell you about a thing I did during the development of the Control Link.

It was right after the Onewire solution had been ruled out, due to negative impact on sound quality. I had decided to try an optical link instead - the fourth attempt to make two Sagatun Mono's act in synch without paying a sonic price. I waited for Linntek to put together the first send and receive protocol, when I was overwhelmed by an urge to know what Sagatun could sound like with no remote control circuitry whatsoever. After all, the musical experience is nearly all that I care about. IF that experience could be even stronger - and I could solve the synch between two Mono's in a different way - I would certainly consider a Sagatun without remote control.

So, all the remote reception stuff was removed. Only front buttons remained. I was a bit nervous about the result when I plugged it into the system at home and put on a record I'd listened to earlier that day. The stuff I removed consumes around 15 mW (milliwatts). I had previously managed to lower it from 25 mW, which brought a small improvement to sound quality. Could lowering it to zero make Sagatun perform even better?

Without the remote circuitry the music was clearly worse. I did a few A-B comparisons, but they weren't really necessary. Relieved I reinstalled it.

DoomHammer · Post by **DoomHammer** » 2014-08-22 09:29

If I worked for some secret agency I would say that I can neither confirm nor deny that somebody is working on a Control Bridge for Sagatun.

But since this is not the case I might as well tell you all the truth. If you have any ideas or proposals feel free to send them to me.

I would be most interested in knowing what is the rest of your system in order to better adjust the Bridge to your needs.

This should probably land in a different topic, though?

rowlandhills · Post by **rowlandhills** » 2014-08-22 16:20

What, you mean like this one that I tried to start? :)

http://www.lejonklou.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2369

But in case that doesn't take off, I have two use cases for you:

1 - Simple two channel setup. Only needs to handle source selection and volume to either a Sagatun or two Sagatun Monos, so that I can control both Sagatun(s) and my KRDS through Kinsky.

2 - Surround setup. This would be a complete replacement for my Exotik+DA (other than decoding from digital sources to multichannel analogue). Requirement here is to keep multiple Sagatuns in sync for volume and source selection, and also (perhaps the tricky bit) to keep a record of the volume offset for each channel (required to cope with me using a Tundra for the main pair and a 3200 for centre and surrounds).

rowlandhills · Post by **rowlandhills** » 2014-08-22 16:22

Scenario 1 above is the equivalent of buying a KK and using the RS232 link to my RDS, by the way. I'd be keeping the Exotik for all surround sources.

Really glad to hear that you're working on this by the way DoomHammer! Many thanks.

tokenbrit · Post by **tokenbrit** » 2014-08-22 17:48

My understanding is that the Sagatuns already do all this through the optical link, including vol offset per channel by 'one time' set up on each Sagatun...

The real requirement just appears to be roll the remote control of the Sagatun into Kinsky so that you have one control. Could you not just make something that turns Kinsky output into Sagatun remote control output, and leave the Sagatuns to do the necessary via the current optical link? Or is that what you're planning already?

You can offset individual (slave) Sagatuns in a multichannel setup so you're still just sending vol up/down or input selection to the Sagatun (master) - the optical link keeps them in sync from there.

Ozzzy189 · Post by **Ozzzy189** » 2014-08-22 19:26

Even if they're synced though, pressing vol +/- on one unit won't turn both up together, therefore putting them out of sync. I know you'll say, 'why on earth would you do this?' Well i had to today as i couldn't find my remote !! And unless you press both volumes together, then they will go off sync.

anthony · Post by **anthony** » 2014-08-22 19:58

Ozzzy189 wrote:Even if they're synced though, pressing vol +/- on one unit won't turn both up together, therefore putting them out of sync. I know you'll say, 'why on earth would you do this?' Well i had to today as i couldn't find my remote !! And unless you press both volumes together, then they will go off sync.

should n't do if you press vol on the master.

Post by **lejonklou** » 2014-08-22 20:05

Ozzzy189 wrote:Even if they're synced though, pressing vol +/- on one unit won't turn both up together, therefore putting them out of sync. I know you'll say, 'why on earth would you do this?' Well i had to today as i couldn't find my remote !! And unless you press both volumes together, then they will go off sync.

Of course they will stay in synch. Make sure one is set to Master, the other to Servant. Then connect the Toslink cable from 'Master' on Master, to 'Servant' on Servant. Servant will follow Master, both by remote control and front buttons.

If you did the above, you might have accidentally pressed the front buttons on Servant instead of Master. Master won't follow Servant, and therefore I recommend locking the front buttons of Servant.

tokenbrit · Post by **tokenbrit** » 2014-08-22 20:13

anthony wrote:
Ozzzy189 wrote:Even if they're synced though, pressing vol +/- on one unit won't turn both up together, therefore putting them out of sync. I know you'll say, 'why on earth would you do this?' Well i had to today as i couldn't find my remote !! And unless you press both volumes together, then they will go off sync.
should n't do if you press vol on the master.

Pressing vol +/- on the master sends a + or - to the slave via the optical link.
Pressing vol +/- on the slave(s) allows you to apply offset.
Pressing vol +/- on the master again sends another + or - to the slave(s). The offset is maintained.

They only go "off sync" if you manually press the vol on a slave which is what you want to do for slave offset. The slaves stay in sync with the master, respecting slave offset, because the optical link just sends a volume change from master to slave (up 5) not absolute vol (jump to 70)

Post by **lejonklou** » 2014-08-22 20:14

tokenbrit wrote:My understanding is that the Sagatuns already do all this through the optical link, including vol offset per channel by 'one time' set up on each Sagatun...

Yes, exactly.

tokenbrit wrote:The real requirement just appears to be roll the remote control of the Sagatun into Kinsky so that you have one control. Could you not just make something that turns Kinsky output into Sagatun remote control output, and leave the Sagatuns to do the necessary via the current optical link? Or is that what you're planning already?

Yes, I believe that is what Doomhammer plans to do.

tokenbrit wrote:You can offset individual (slave) Sagatuns in a multichannel setup so you're still just sending vol up/down or input selection to the Sagatun (master) - the optical link keeps them in sync from there.

Yes!