This thread is an offspring of some pm correspondence I´ve had previously with Fredrik.
I was not sure if my story was interestering enough to post on the forum but on second thought other people may feel the same way.
And actually I am happy to hear more opinions.
To get you all an even start here is a short summary.
My current system is Renew DS, AK/1, Ikemi, M6100/d, Keltiks/ch, Rega P3. Quite good on paper, and it´s taken me a few years and quite some spenditure to get there. All has been collected by s/h and forum purchases. I rarely visit the Linn dealer as I simply can´t afford new stuff.
But the set fails a good setup and proper rack, and also speaker positioning is not optimal (frankly I fear the Keltiks are just too big for my room, or the room is inadequate for a good positioning).
Fredrik already pointed out that a well executed installation would normally take a full day´s labour. That shocked me. Not primairily by the costs of it (as I don´t know yet what Fredriks rates are), but by what effort it apparently takes to let it sound well. My dealer is not really up to it. I am not technical and don´t see myself checking on nuts and bolts and torque settings.
I also feel not inclined to ´just´ spend more on updrading equipment if the basis is not right. And every added link into the chain means increased complexity. If I add up the money I´ve spent in total on what I have now, I would simply expect my setup to play better tunes.
The Keltiks give me a great pride of ownership (stupid feature, I know),
even though the Mrs. would see them happily replaced by a smaller type. General consensus on the Linn forum is to get at least 4-way Akurate amplification and Klimax crossovers to really get the best out of them.
But it seems like slowly I´ve grown a bit tired of accumulating boxes.
All this upgrading. Better and better. It could be the age.
But I feel much like going back to simplicity. Off course with keeping the archieved level of listening pleasure. To give you an idea what I´m aiming at:
`Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler.`
Einstein wrote that by the way...;-). So in essence I think, going back to a passive system. DS, pre/power amp, speakers. I may be old fashioned (or becoming), but at this stage I am not yet to give up on my records and cds, so these inputs still need to be facilitated.
Though most of my stuff is Linn now, I have about all the different fascias you can get. I would not mind a more uniform look in the long run, though if a piece of equipment offers exceptional performance that matters more.
A have even been thinking along the line of selling everything on, and getting a ADSM/2200 and 242s. An elegant 2-box system with all the necessary inputs.
But I don´t know how much performance I would lose in the front end to what I have now.
And off course I still have to wait for what Tundra brings.
Bottom line is I think I have to find an enjoyable replacement for the Keltiks (I carefully omitted the word ´worthy´) and eventually the M6100/d.
Something that is easier to setup and tune. Or is maybe less sensitive to placement.
It could be a standmount or floorstander. 242 MKII has the best cards I think but are not affordable for me yet. So it could also be an interim solution while saving up. I still have some Katans in the attick but that leap may be too far...;-) Anyway all thoughts and suggestions are welcome.
And thanks for bearing with me through this elaborated story.
Cheers,
Marco
PS.
maybe my amature knowledge leads me to think a ´simpler system´ requires less attention to setup
maybe this thread is just to underline the importance of a dealers expertise..
A simple system
Moderator: Staff
A simple system
Last edited by mrco99 on 2012-01-26 16:08, edited 5 times in total.
Forum posts like yours, whether here or other forums, rarely admit the system isn't optimised. I think this is why responses automatically lead with recommendations for the next component upgrade. That's not how it should be, but we all assume the OPs system is already optimised. I guess that only a very small % of Linn systems are though.
Now that you've purchased equipment that doesn't mess up the musicality like some, then the next most important step is setup, otherwise you're really not getting the benefits. Any thoughts about upgrading seem wasteful to me, until the system is right in the first place.
Provided the kit isn't faulty, or there is some severe mismatch, then you'll know when it is right because hi-fi thoughts don't even enter your mind. You might be impressed by what a drummer is doing and how exciting he is to listen to, but hi-fi stuff won't register. Once you're there, then an upgrade is really a quest for more musical benefits rather than better soundstage or tighter bass. I admit there are times when an aspect can be annoying, but until it is optimised then you don't know if it is the kit or the setup.
I don't know what Fredrik charges either, but I would have thought Ander's (Tonlaget dealer in Sweden) or Fredrik well worth paying for their services.
Otherwise, start playing with tune dem yourself. Start with tweaking the speakers, but that needs a steady commitment over time and a willingness/interest to learn. There are also other elements need investigating, like mains connectivity and all sorts, but a lot of forum threads if you want to search.
Ref Keltik room size. I did always take with a slight pinch of salt when members like Music Lover said that setup could eradicate bass boom entirely, but it really can. B@*^*#£d to find the right spot though!!
Now that you've purchased equipment that doesn't mess up the musicality like some, then the next most important step is setup, otherwise you're really not getting the benefits. Any thoughts about upgrading seem wasteful to me, until the system is right in the first place.
Provided the kit isn't faulty, or there is some severe mismatch, then you'll know when it is right because hi-fi thoughts don't even enter your mind. You might be impressed by what a drummer is doing and how exciting he is to listen to, but hi-fi stuff won't register. Once you're there, then an upgrade is really a quest for more musical benefits rather than better soundstage or tighter bass. I admit there are times when an aspect can be annoying, but until it is optimised then you don't know if it is the kit or the setup.
I don't know what Fredrik charges either, but I would have thought Ander's (Tonlaget dealer in Sweden) or Fredrik well worth paying for their services.
Otherwise, start playing with tune dem yourself. Start with tweaking the speakers, but that needs a steady commitment over time and a willingness/interest to learn. There are also other elements need investigating, like mains connectivity and all sorts, but a lot of forum threads if you want to search.
Ref Keltik room size. I did always take with a slight pinch of salt when members like Music Lover said that setup could eradicate bass boom entirely, but it really can. B@*^*#£d to find the right spot though!!
Hi Charlie,
Thanks for your reply.
I hearthily admit my system in not optimized.
The ´rack´ I have now consists of concrete stones and wooden plinths
and is positioned in between the speakers.
All ´hifi approved´ racks are turned down by my spouse as they look awful and I must credit her that 30% is too ugly, 30% is too expensive and the rest is both. I do like the look of Hutter racks but it is not available here, so I can´t even have a look at the wood samples.
Speaker cables, interlinks and power cables are a snakepit.
Speaker cables 1xK600 and 1xK400 are of unequal length and terminated with screwable Linn/WBT plugs, as I can´t solder.
I agree I probably have some homework to do, I am not unwilling to learn, and I already sucked up a lot of knowledge from the forum.
But I know I am not a professional. And I´ve asked a Linn dealer to help
me optimizing my Keltik system and he did not get further than adjusting the chakra cards, all else was supposed to be fine.
Hardly an hour´s work. No checking the torque settings etc. I did get the advise to have my speaker cables properly soldered. With WBT plugs.
Maybe therefore I was also shocked when I found out that it is normal to take up to 8 hours for a total setup. Naturally this has to paid for, but it also gives an indication of the work involved and thus level of expertise involved.
What triggered this post was basically last week I sat down in my living room and played some music at very moderate level. First thing that struck me was that it didn´t sound special or involving. Just music.
But not sounding like it´s worth the roughly 10K I´ve spent on it. Can it be I have gotten used to the sound? Am I expecting too much?
Maybe there is a flaw in the system. I will check all connections and see what repostioning the Keltiks bring.
Looks like I´m heading towards a shuffling weekend...;-)
Thanks for your reply.
I hearthily admit my system in not optimized.
The ´rack´ I have now consists of concrete stones and wooden plinths
and is positioned in between the speakers.
All ´hifi approved´ racks are turned down by my spouse as they look awful and I must credit her that 30% is too ugly, 30% is too expensive and the rest is both. I do like the look of Hutter racks but it is not available here, so I can´t even have a look at the wood samples.
Speaker cables, interlinks and power cables are a snakepit.
Speaker cables 1xK600 and 1xK400 are of unequal length and terminated with screwable Linn/WBT plugs, as I can´t solder.
I agree I probably have some homework to do, I am not unwilling to learn, and I already sucked up a lot of knowledge from the forum.
But I know I am not a professional. And I´ve asked a Linn dealer to help
me optimizing my Keltik system and he did not get further than adjusting the chakra cards, all else was supposed to be fine.
Hardly an hour´s work. No checking the torque settings etc. I did get the advise to have my speaker cables properly soldered. With WBT plugs.
Maybe therefore I was also shocked when I found out that it is normal to take up to 8 hours for a total setup. Naturally this has to paid for, but it also gives an indication of the work involved and thus level of expertise involved.
What triggered this post was basically last week I sat down in my living room and played some music at very moderate level. First thing that struck me was that it didn´t sound special or involving. Just music.
But not sounding like it´s worth the roughly 10K I´ve spent on it. Can it be I have gotten used to the sound? Am I expecting too much?
Maybe there is a flaw in the system. I will check all connections and see what repostioning the Keltiks bring.
Looks like I´m heading towards a shuffling weekend...;-)
I was in a similar boat to you a few years ago. I like what I ended up with: KDS - KK - ATC SCM SL AT. I like the simplicity vs. the keltiks I still have stored.
But
The speakers still need proper set up. The gear between the speakers is still going to have a negative affect in that position. (I still have but don't use an LP12 that requires Lingo and phono stage (still would use the karins into the KK if I set it up.) The ATCs have built in amplifiers so I eliminated 6 boxes (4 x klouts and 2 Klimax Crossovers).)
And
The gear you have is up to the job. Paid for would be a big plus.
So
I recommend you find a way to move the gear from being between the speakers. (Mine is all in the basement under the listening room. This works great as the rack sits on concrete floor instead of suspended wood floor.) This will possibly require some longer cables. I don't want to get specific - think about what would work for you and get back to the forum with your ideas - too many unknowns for advice. I don't want this to be too long of a post.
Once you have the gear moved - no sense having to pay for the time this will take - then get someone well qualified to position, tighten and connect your speakers. This will be the BIGGEST improvement you will get. Then enjoy this for some time. Beware you will probably want to start buying more music at this point. Do some of that and save more towards having a rack and pro help setting up that end of the system when it won't stretch your budget too thin. No amount of money is going to better the positioning of the speakers to play your room.
My experience with positioning myself is that I have such a small frame of reference to work with. People like Fredrik listen to more setups and have the time invested in knowing when it hits the sweet spot. I can't begin to count how many times I had the system sounding sweet, but thought "maybe I can get a little more", moved the speakers a tiny bit and lost all my previous work. It gets frustrating. No other boxes will take the place of tuning to your room.
To sum it up - pay the right person to take the frustration away. That is priceless.
But
The speakers still need proper set up. The gear between the speakers is still going to have a negative affect in that position. (I still have but don't use an LP12 that requires Lingo and phono stage (still would use the karins into the KK if I set it up.) The ATCs have built in amplifiers so I eliminated 6 boxes (4 x klouts and 2 Klimax Crossovers).)
And
The gear you have is up to the job. Paid for would be a big plus.
So
I recommend you find a way to move the gear from being between the speakers. (Mine is all in the basement under the listening room. This works great as the rack sits on concrete floor instead of suspended wood floor.) This will possibly require some longer cables. I don't want to get specific - think about what would work for you and get back to the forum with your ideas - too many unknowns for advice. I don't want this to be too long of a post.
Once you have the gear moved - no sense having to pay for the time this will take - then get someone well qualified to position, tighten and connect your speakers. This will be the BIGGEST improvement you will get. Then enjoy this for some time. Beware you will probably want to start buying more music at this point. Do some of that and save more towards having a rack and pro help setting up that end of the system when it won't stretch your budget too thin. No amount of money is going to better the positioning of the speakers to play your room.
My experience with positioning myself is that I have such a small frame of reference to work with. People like Fredrik listen to more setups and have the time invested in knowing when it hits the sweet spot. I can't begin to count how many times I had the system sounding sweet, but thought "maybe I can get a little more", moved the speakers a tiny bit and lost all my previous work. It gets frustrating. No other boxes will take the place of tuning to your room.
To sum it up - pay the right person to take the frustration away. That is priceless.
-
rowlandhills
- Very active member
- Posts: 582
- Joined: 2008-01-27 19:25
- Location: York, UK
I completely agree with this. It's a mindset which takes some time to get to, I think, but it's a good one.SaltyDog wrote:To sum it up - pay the right person to take the frustration away. That is priceless.
I made a shift a few years ago on the video side, when I realised that a cheap display with ISF calibration was much more satisfying than an expensive display as it came from the shop, or with my own efforts at calibrating.
Unfortunately, it seems to be easier to find good people for video setup than it is for audio setup. :(
KRDSM, Tundra to 242s
Silvers, K400, Hutter rack
Silvers, K400, Hutter rack
simple system
The 100 series amps are not really powerful enough for keltiks.
I never enjoyed my keltiks until I had the Klimax crossovers.
I have been listening to a kdsm twin and 242s, it is way ahead of the keltik system.
Your suggestion of adsm and 2200, 242s is an excellent idea, I feel you will find it far more involving.
I never enjoyed my keltiks until I had the Klimax crossovers.
I have been listening to a kdsm twin and 242s, it is way ahead of the keltik system.
Your suggestion of adsm and 2200, 242s is an excellent idea, I feel you will find it far more involving.
You've gotten several good answers here. There is no question proper setup is invaluable in getting a system to be as musical as it can be. No amount of shuffling boxes can make up for a questionable setup. And you do have a questionable setup.
Let me give you a simple illustration. A few years back I had a customer who wanted to do a couple of simple upgrades to his system. We made a couple of improvements to his LP12 and he upgraded his speaker cable. After some discussion he decided to go with K400 and asked for a 17ft length and a 4ft length. I explained to him that he really needed to keep the lengths the same despite the fact that one speaker was a lot closer to the system. After some more discussion and him asking the owner and getting the same recommendation he want ahead and settled on a 17ft pair. I went to make them and found we only had 18ft left on the reel. So I made one 17ft length and lent him a 5ft one we had for demo until we could get another roll in. A week later we had the other roll and I made up the second 17ft length. He came and picked it up and dropped off the 5ft length. A half hour later I received an excited call from him. He told me this story: Before he had left the house he had been playing a piece of music that was a favorite of his wife (I think it was country). He said it was something he really didn't care for. When he returned home with the 17ft length and installed it he decided to play the same piece to see if he could hear the difference. With the matched lengths of K400 he found he did like the music and listened to the whole album! He informed us that he would never question our advice in future.
This just relates to one part of your system that is not optimal but you can see what a difference it can make. Putting the best connectors on the cable (Linn Knekt bananas) and soldering them properly will also reap easily audible rewards. Fredrik, and others with similar levels of dedication and competence, will take the time to get all these things right and it will make a world of difference. As an example, Fredrik has personally evaluated a number of different solders musically and uses the best one. He uses a specific soldering station and a specific temperature that is most musical. This is not hype. I bought the same exact soldering station and using his chosen solder with Knekt bananas on K400 I found that I was able to hear differences of 1°F on the soldering iron! The torques on the drivers of the speaker make a substantial difference and it also makes a difference on the electronics. (Of course I would say that having developed the torque measurement system Fredrik and I use.) Also important, and too infrequently correct are the directions of the internal wiring in the electronics.
Even if you knew all the correct torque settings, cable directions, solder temperatures, approximate speaker positions, etc. you can see how this level of system optimization will take a fair bit of time. Add in the time it takes to evaluate torque settings or internal cable directions by ear on a piece of equipment you haven't worked on before or where the cables have no markings so you just have to listen to the different positions and you can see how a system such as yours could take all day if you really want to hear what it is capable of. (You would be surprised how many cables there are inside a 6100 connecting the various parts together and each one has a proper direction - even the metal pin connectors for the Aktiv cards have a right direction and there are four possible positions for each one!)
So, yes, if you want to really enjoy music in your house it is exceedingly worthwhile to have someone with Fredrik's level of dedication go over it. You will find much more improvement than just shuffling around a couple of boxes (which will certainly make it sound different but not better unless the fundamentals are attended to). Now I will say that the 100 series may not be the best amps for the Keltiks although I have not tried that combination myself, but there have been complaints from others about it not being the best match. That said you could get two 4200s and only up your box count by one. This would let you use the same crossover cards (although you would need another pair of bass cards) and would also let you have an amp channel for each woofer - always a good way to go. Once again Fredrik could advise you on your best options.
Let me give you a simple illustration. A few years back I had a customer who wanted to do a couple of simple upgrades to his system. We made a couple of improvements to his LP12 and he upgraded his speaker cable. After some discussion he decided to go with K400 and asked for a 17ft length and a 4ft length. I explained to him that he really needed to keep the lengths the same despite the fact that one speaker was a lot closer to the system. After some more discussion and him asking the owner and getting the same recommendation he want ahead and settled on a 17ft pair. I went to make them and found we only had 18ft left on the reel. So I made one 17ft length and lent him a 5ft one we had for demo until we could get another roll in. A week later we had the other roll and I made up the second 17ft length. He came and picked it up and dropped off the 5ft length. A half hour later I received an excited call from him. He told me this story: Before he had left the house he had been playing a piece of music that was a favorite of his wife (I think it was country). He said it was something he really didn't care for. When he returned home with the 17ft length and installed it he decided to play the same piece to see if he could hear the difference. With the matched lengths of K400 he found he did like the music and listened to the whole album! He informed us that he would never question our advice in future.
This just relates to one part of your system that is not optimal but you can see what a difference it can make. Putting the best connectors on the cable (Linn Knekt bananas) and soldering them properly will also reap easily audible rewards. Fredrik, and others with similar levels of dedication and competence, will take the time to get all these things right and it will make a world of difference. As an example, Fredrik has personally evaluated a number of different solders musically and uses the best one. He uses a specific soldering station and a specific temperature that is most musical. This is not hype. I bought the same exact soldering station and using his chosen solder with Knekt bananas on K400 I found that I was able to hear differences of 1°F on the soldering iron! The torques on the drivers of the speaker make a substantial difference and it also makes a difference on the electronics. (Of course I would say that having developed the torque measurement system Fredrik and I use.) Also important, and too infrequently correct are the directions of the internal wiring in the electronics.
Even if you knew all the correct torque settings, cable directions, solder temperatures, approximate speaker positions, etc. you can see how this level of system optimization will take a fair bit of time. Add in the time it takes to evaluate torque settings or internal cable directions by ear on a piece of equipment you haven't worked on before or where the cables have no markings so you just have to listen to the different positions and you can see how a system such as yours could take all day if you really want to hear what it is capable of. (You would be surprised how many cables there are inside a 6100 connecting the various parts together and each one has a proper direction - even the metal pin connectors for the Aktiv cards have a right direction and there are four possible positions for each one!)
So, yes, if you want to really enjoy music in your house it is exceedingly worthwhile to have someone with Fredrik's level of dedication go over it. You will find much more improvement than just shuffling around a couple of boxes (which will certainly make it sound different but not better unless the fundamentals are attended to). Now I will say that the 100 series may not be the best amps for the Keltiks although I have not tried that combination myself, but there have been complaints from others about it not being the best match. That said you could get two 4200s and only up your box count by one. This would let you use the same crossover cards (although you would need another pair of bass cards) and would also let you have an amp channel for each woofer - always a good way to go. Once again Fredrik could advise you on your best options.
Mmm, maybe 2 days then :o)ThomasOK wrote:Even if you knew all the correct torque settings, cable directions, solder temperatures, approximate speaker positions, etc. you can see how this level of system optimization will take a fair bit of time. Add in the time it takes to evaluate torque settings or internal cable directions by ear on a piece of equipment you haven't worked on before or where the cables have no markings so you just have to listen to the different positions and you can see how a system such as yours could take all day if you really want to hear what it is capable of. (You would be surprised how many cables there are inside a 6100 connecting the various parts together and each one has a proper direction - even the metal pin connectors for the Aktiv cards have a right direction and there are four possible positions for each one!
Can vouch for Fredrik's work on speaker cable. Made more difference than I was expecting and my expectations were reasonably high.
The more time I've spent tuning my system myself, the more I question the feasibility of dealerships to do a 100% optimised install. Firstly, most kit takes a few months to burn in anyway, that's 2 home visits. And secondly, can dealers really afford to pay an installer for a whole day, maybe two days, to get it perfect? I don't think so, not on most orders. A big klimax system, yes, but they must be few and far between. It doesn't add up to my mind, which means only a few enthusiasts can really enjoy their system at its best. And unfortunately, the gap between 95% and 100% setup makes all the difference to me - not that most people get anything like 95% anyway.
I am acting Devil's advocate here perhaps, but I would like to say a word or two about the practice of setting up systems.
Now, firstly I reluctantly agree that how a system is installed, wired up and postitioned is vital to its performance. As an ex-electrical engineer I am able to apply a certain amount of knowledge and experimentation myself, particularly in the area of cable dressing, mains cabling, speaker wires and soldering, and relative positioning of my mainly Linn components.
Also as an ex-electrical engineer, I am at a loss to explain the effects of the above in conventional electronics terms. (However, having recently completed a short course at my local University in Quantum Mechanics, I realise that we really know very little).
Now a good dealer will assist in installation and make up good cables and the like: I would expect that, as would Linn.
I have no doubt that people like ThomasOK, Peter at Cymbiosis, and David at the Sound Organisation have a deep understanding of the product and that for them to spend a day in my house would show an improvement upon what I am I able to do myself.
But I ask, should we be asked to spend tens of thousands of pounds on equipment which needs a specialist to get it going properly? This is a failing of the manufacturer, surely?
To my ears, Linn only just make the best turntable in the world - it is a struggle to get it working properly, and similarly all the other black boxes.
Which says to me that hifi still has a long way to go. What we need is a system which sounds as good as a Linn, but which will work as well however the components are placed and hooked up with bell-wire.
Forgive my ramblings from drab York, this Friday afternoon.
don
Now, firstly I reluctantly agree that how a system is installed, wired up and postitioned is vital to its performance. As an ex-electrical engineer I am able to apply a certain amount of knowledge and experimentation myself, particularly in the area of cable dressing, mains cabling, speaker wires and soldering, and relative positioning of my mainly Linn components.
Also as an ex-electrical engineer, I am at a loss to explain the effects of the above in conventional electronics terms. (However, having recently completed a short course at my local University in Quantum Mechanics, I realise that we really know very little).
Now a good dealer will assist in installation and make up good cables and the like: I would expect that, as would Linn.
I have no doubt that people like ThomasOK, Peter at Cymbiosis, and David at the Sound Organisation have a deep understanding of the product and that for them to spend a day in my house would show an improvement upon what I am I able to do myself.
But I ask, should we be asked to spend tens of thousands of pounds on equipment which needs a specialist to get it going properly? This is a failing of the manufacturer, surely?
To my ears, Linn only just make the best turntable in the world - it is a struggle to get it working properly, and similarly all the other black boxes.
Which says to me that hifi still has a long way to go. What we need is a system which sounds as good as a Linn, but which will work as well however the components are placed and hooked up with bell-wire.
Forgive my ramblings from drab York, this Friday afternoon.
don
Hi Don. From a slightly brighter Oxfordshire, I think it's a good idea to play devil's advocate. It does all sound a bit far fetched and over the top. Obsessive maybe. And I do think a truly great new song will resonate with me no mater what it is played through, but that leaves a lot of ground for all the other music I listen to.
I also think some of the tweaks that can be made really are not a big deal. In my experience they are nice-to-have's, and can add up to something very worthwhile, but aren't critical. Things like the direction of the 6100 links for example. And whilst I really appreciated Fredrik's soldering work, the original ones were done by a Linn dealer and obviously good enough for me to enjoy music.
However, I've come across a couple of areas that seem more fundamental. Speaker positioning is the obvious one for me. LP12 setup is another. Also, do you recall a thread about a KDS issue a long while back? A guy on here complained his new KDS sounded no better than the existing Unidisk. It took ages to get to the bottom of, but he'd recently moved house and re-installed the KK, (not KDS!), with a non-Linn mains cable. Once a Linn one was back on, he could all of a sudden hear what the KDS was doing - bizarre, but there you have it.
But, yes, it would be nice not to have to worry about all this and have simple plug and play. Don't think it will ever happen though. Maybe headphones if you don't want to setup speakers :O)
I also think some of the tweaks that can be made really are not a big deal. In my experience they are nice-to-have's, and can add up to something very worthwhile, but aren't critical. Things like the direction of the 6100 links for example. And whilst I really appreciated Fredrik's soldering work, the original ones were done by a Linn dealer and obviously good enough for me to enjoy music.
However, I've come across a couple of areas that seem more fundamental. Speaker positioning is the obvious one for me. LP12 setup is another. Also, do you recall a thread about a KDS issue a long while back? A guy on here complained his new KDS sounded no better than the existing Unidisk. It took ages to get to the bottom of, but he'd recently moved house and re-installed the KK, (not KDS!), with a non-Linn mains cable. Once a Linn one was back on, he could all of a sudden hear what the KDS was doing - bizarre, but there you have it.
But, yes, it would be nice not to have to worry about all this and have simple plug and play. Don't think it will ever happen though. Maybe headphones if you don't want to setup speakers :O)
Thanks everyone for your valuable opinions and critisism.
A lot op helpful advise even though not all noses point into the same direction.
I underwrite the importance of a good dealer/installer to help optimizing one's system, and people like Fredrik will probably go that extra mile and then even a bit further to squeeze the very best out all components, which explains the time required for such a job.
Not everything will have the same effect but it all adds up and you have to have the expertise to know what you're doing. So far I have not found someone around here who can do such a thing. Basic elements like positioning, separating powerleads, interlinks and speaker cables is something I can do myself, to aa cetain degree. Removing my equipment from between the Keltiks to a different position like SaltyDog suggested is also a thing I will try.
I've bought a second set of K400, so now have two sets, one of 2.80m and one of 2.30m. Will have them properly termintaed and soldered once I know the best setup. For now, I will not yet invest further into equipment, maybe a rack first, and try getting the best of out what I have now. Then see if I can find a specialist to advise if I should continue with the speakers.
I have already cleared out both Creek phono/headphone amps, and redone the interlink wiring. Also gone through the power leads.
It appears I had some unknown chinese brands on some, so I've gone through a spare lot I had lying around. In total I counted 3 Volex power cords and an I-Sheng.
Don't know if the last one is a Linn one as well, but there have been even more obscure names amongst it, like 'King cord'. I've put the 3 Volex cords on the Renew, AK/1 and M6100, the I-Sheng in the Ikemi as I use this the least.
Interlinks are 3 pairs of Silvers, 1 of 60cm and 2x 80cm.
The 60cm I've put in between AK/1 and M6100 as these are stacked on top of each other, the M6100 on top to have more air ventilation.
The 2x 80cm are on the Renew and Ikemi to the AK/1.
Btw, the Renew DS is stacked onto the Ikemi, which is mostly sitting unused/unpowered, until my spouse wants to enjoy some music.
All wires are checked to be pointing in the right direction. The 6100 is internally wired. I did this myself, frankly don't recall if I checked for directionality and if there was something on these tiny wires.
I wired the left and right part separately, so channels 1,2,3 for bass/mid/treble and 4,5,6 for treble/mid/bass. Bass channels are wired with 2x speaker cable leads from one output to the two separate Keltik bass inputs. All 6100 speaker connections have been made with the (oldskool?) Linn screwable red and black speaker plugs from the LK140 era. Delton banana type? On the speaker side I have 16x WBT 0645 screwable connectors.
I have now the K400 2.3m cable on treble and mid, and K400 2.8m on the bass. So left and right pairs are identical but not the same length.
Though I've had very little time to listen, a quick try-out already showed a livened-up treble. Also I think (difficult to describe) a quiter soundstage. Bass I find, especially at lower volumes, not very impressive. I did not fiddle about speaker position, will do this next, maybe they are now too close to the wall. Also one speaker is quite close to a corner (40cm), but I can not change this really, unless I move the Keltiks closer to each other and then narrowing the stereo image.
They are now 2 metres apart, without toe-in and listening position is approx. 3 metres away.
I let you know how I get on, thanks again so far for all advise.
PS.
Per A, interesting comment about the Kabers vs Katans.
What differences did you experience?
I've had Kabers before with mono cards and Tunebox which system migrated from my last house, but they never really shined. Best experience I've had was with active Keilidhs, but that was 8 years ago and the very first time I heard Linn speakers taken active. Sentiment + memory may be playing tricks here.
A lot op helpful advise even though not all noses point into the same direction.
I underwrite the importance of a good dealer/installer to help optimizing one's system, and people like Fredrik will probably go that extra mile and then even a bit further to squeeze the very best out all components, which explains the time required for such a job.
Not everything will have the same effect but it all adds up and you have to have the expertise to know what you're doing. So far I have not found someone around here who can do such a thing. Basic elements like positioning, separating powerleads, interlinks and speaker cables is something I can do myself, to aa cetain degree. Removing my equipment from between the Keltiks to a different position like SaltyDog suggested is also a thing I will try.
I've bought a second set of K400, so now have two sets, one of 2.80m and one of 2.30m. Will have them properly termintaed and soldered once I know the best setup. For now, I will not yet invest further into equipment, maybe a rack first, and try getting the best of out what I have now. Then see if I can find a specialist to advise if I should continue with the speakers.
I have already cleared out both Creek phono/headphone amps, and redone the interlink wiring. Also gone through the power leads.
It appears I had some unknown chinese brands on some, so I've gone through a spare lot I had lying around. In total I counted 3 Volex power cords and an I-Sheng.
Don't know if the last one is a Linn one as well, but there have been even more obscure names amongst it, like 'King cord'. I've put the 3 Volex cords on the Renew, AK/1 and M6100, the I-Sheng in the Ikemi as I use this the least.
Interlinks are 3 pairs of Silvers, 1 of 60cm and 2x 80cm.
The 60cm I've put in between AK/1 and M6100 as these are stacked on top of each other, the M6100 on top to have more air ventilation.
The 2x 80cm are on the Renew and Ikemi to the AK/1.
Btw, the Renew DS is stacked onto the Ikemi, which is mostly sitting unused/unpowered, until my spouse wants to enjoy some music.
All wires are checked to be pointing in the right direction. The 6100 is internally wired. I did this myself, frankly don't recall if I checked for directionality and if there was something on these tiny wires.
I wired the left and right part separately, so channels 1,2,3 for bass/mid/treble and 4,5,6 for treble/mid/bass. Bass channels are wired with 2x speaker cable leads from one output to the two separate Keltik bass inputs. All 6100 speaker connections have been made with the (oldskool?) Linn screwable red and black speaker plugs from the LK140 era. Delton banana type? On the speaker side I have 16x WBT 0645 screwable connectors.
I have now the K400 2.3m cable on treble and mid, and K400 2.8m on the bass. So left and right pairs are identical but not the same length.
Though I've had very little time to listen, a quick try-out already showed a livened-up treble. Also I think (difficult to describe) a quiter soundstage. Bass I find, especially at lower volumes, not very impressive. I did not fiddle about speaker position, will do this next, maybe they are now too close to the wall. Also one speaker is quite close to a corner (40cm), but I can not change this really, unless I move the Keltiks closer to each other and then narrowing the stereo image.
They are now 2 metres apart, without toe-in and listening position is approx. 3 metres away.
I let you know how I get on, thanks again so far for all advise.
PS.
Per A, interesting comment about the Kabers vs Katans.
What differences did you experience?
I've had Kabers before with mono cards and Tunebox which system migrated from my last house, but they never really shined. Best experience I've had was with active Keilidhs, but that was 8 years ago and the very first time I heard Linn speakers taken active. Sentiment + memory may be playing tricks here.
simple system
40 cms from the side wall should be fine. Most Keltiks including my own worked well 25-30 cms from rear wall. Mine were 27cms
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If I did not require HDMI i/ps I would choose the separates.mrco99 wrote:Thanks for your feedback Anthony.
Will try your suggested measurements.
Did you ever compare Renew+AK/1 vs ADSM by the way?
If so, how great are the differences (on a well setup system...;-)
An ADS1+AK1 is slightly better than ADSM, so a Renew should be a lot better.
The Renew is more analogue, less digital sounding, has more subtleties, and more tuneful.
Thanks for your comments, actual use is stereo only,my
Beovision MX4000 has no hdmi but will probably keep me
happy for another decade. The sound is also amazingly natural btw.
So an ADSM is not an option as a cutback to quickly obtain a pair of 242s.
I was just pondering some budget-neutral possibilities.
Beovision MX4000 has no hdmi but will probably keep me
happy for another decade. The sound is also amazingly natural btw.
So an ADSM is not an option as a cutback to quickly obtain a pair of 242s.
I was just pondering some budget-neutral possibilities.
I got kabers about 1990 ran them passive and then active with the active filter in a lk box. I changed power amps and cables and feet for those speakers. All this amounted to a lot of money for me and I ended up having a ridiculously complicated mess and which did not satisfy me.
The Katans were small beauties but alas left me wanting for something.
I found it with ATC speakers. The model scm20 was constructed released 1990 about when Kabers were out and they make me very happy. If I had got Atcs 1990 I would have saved a fortune.
The Katans were small beauties but alas left me wanting for something.
I found it with ATC speakers. The model scm20 was constructed released 1990 about when Kabers were out and they make me very happy. If I had got Atcs 1990 I would have saved a fortune.