Christian's system

christian · Post by **christian** » 2011-01-08 11:03

Please allow me to introduce myself...

I have been with the forum for quite some time now mostly reading and making small remarks now and then but now it's time for a proper introduction.

I have been a music lover all my life I think. There are pictures of me at age two playing records at my mothers small turntable. I have had a number of different systems over the years including brands like Denon, Harman Kardon, Yamaha, Audio Research,Thiel, Rega and Cyrus. I even once had a 300B triod valve amp with an output of only 7 watts. Compared to a lot of the products that are around I feel that Rega is a brand that makes products with a good value, especially their cheaper products.

I often tell this story to describe what I had to put up with before I found Linn: A number of years ago I was looking for a new hifi system. I went to a dealer who was known to have a lot of high end gear. I brought some records of my own and he put me in his listening chair. We was playing on a German system with a price tag of about 100 000 Euros. It was so totally uninvolving and boring that I almost fell asleep. The dealer asked me what I thought and I replied something like “About what, oh the system! I think nothing about it because it has not caught my attention. To me it is nothing and especially not music.” He said “lets go to another room”. I had to use his rest room and while standing there washing my hands I heard from within there that the music that was playing in the other room was so much better. Now he was playing on a system for about 10 000 Euros. I said to him “How is it possible for you to sell that other system for ten times as much as this one?” He replied “Well if you are interested in timing and rhythm this might be better but the sound stage is much wider with the expensive system.“ Another time I saw Norah Jones second album laying at a hifi shop. It was new and I had not heard it. I asked the guy how it was. He said “Too much bass”.

Anyway when I walked in to Tonläget in Gothenburg I immediately felt at home. Not with the mess in the store ;-) but with the fact that everything was described in a musical context. I am a Linnie ever since.

The Linn system has evolved over the years and I am now playing on ADS/D (2007 model). LP12 with Klimax Radikal, Keel, Ekos II, Urika and Klyde. All connected to a Klimax Kontrol.

As a playback I have been using first Espek powered by 2250, then Aktiv Espek with M6100, then M140-M6100, then Klimax 320A and finally ATC SCM-50 ASL classic model.

Actually I have had the ATC's for about three weeks and as there has been some talk about ATC on this forum I wanted to give you my view on them. First a short resume; I bought the Klimax 320A before the summer of 2010. They where Artikulates that had been upgraded to Klimax but they did not have the Dynamik Power supply. I got a deal on them that I could not resist. I thought that I now had a playback that I could live with for many years to come. As I want my system to consist of as few boxes as possible the concept of active speakers really suits me fine. As I think back now I realize that I was never quite happy with the Klimax speakers. I guess my room was to big for them as the energy in the music was lost as soon as I moved out of the listening position. They do play very very clean but for some reason I found them less involving. Finally I decided that I had to to something about it. Klimax twin and A242 seamed like a good choice and I am sure I would have been happy with that. But then ATC caught my attention, mostly from testimonials on this forum. At this point I would like to thank ThomasOK for his kind responses to my numerous questions about ATC. This was really very helpful. I managed to find a pair of ATC SCM-50 ASL in black ash at a dealer in the UK. The LP12 is in black so I wanted black speakers to go. They traded in my Linn speakers and I got the ATC's just before Christmas. A very exiting Christmas gift indeed.

So how do I get along with them?
Well I am thrilled! This is of course my personal thoughts and others may have different opinions, but my feeling is that they are, without question, the best speakers I have had in my system. I am totally happy. They bring a very natural Live feeling to everything played through them. Bass response is strong but very tuneful. Voices and acoustic instruments sound very natural and any music is played with great timing. They are powerful but at the same time very detailed without ever sounding harsh or bright. To describe them I find them similar to what the Radikal upgrade did with the LP12. Rhythm and especially drums and bass lines becomes very clear. Perhaps one could say that they have a little Naim like sound. But most important: It is fun to listen to any kind of music for hours and hours without having any sort of listening fatigue. Also they fill the whole house with quality music. These speakers may not be for everyone but I think that I tend to listen to drums and bass lines as a foundation to the music. And if that is not presented strong enough the music becomes a little bit boring to me. I would say that the experience with the K320 clearly shows me that in my room floor standing speakers is what is need to get happy. I also play a lot of classical music and love the dynamic way it is presented through the ATC's. A good thing is also that I can enjoy music on very low volumes on them. When I listen early in the morning when the rest of the family is still sleeping I can play as low as 20 on the KK and still enjoy and hear a very full range sound.

I am very familiar with the sound of the Linn A242 as one of my friends have them and I have heard them at my dealers lots of times. The A242 is a great speaker but in my ears the ATC's is much more fun to listen to. More live, stronger bass response and more dynamic. Perhaps the A242's can compete in active mode with Akurate amps, but that is a solution that cost more than twice as much as the active ATC's. In my room the K320A was not even close. I have never heard Komri and the K350A at one occasion only so I don't dare to have any opinion on how those compare to the ATC's.

As said before this is my personal view and others may think differently.

It also seems that I can understand new music more quickly than before which I see as a good sign.

The speakers came with stands without spikes and currently I have placed them on small nuts which was quite a large improvement. I will soon modify the stands with spikes both against the floor and against the speaker. I have talked to ATC and they say that nowadays they only supply stands with spikes but previously spikes was an option.

Thanks also goes out to hcl and Anders at Tonläget for helping me to tune in the speakers.

Thanks for reading!

SaltyDog · Post by **SaltyDog** » 2011-01-08 15:53

Welcome to the (AT)Clan! Notice no "k" in the spelling. :lol:

The Ks should be ahead of the ATCs.

As in KDS/D - KK/1/D - ATC SCM 50 ASL. (my system) IMHO

I love how great it sounds at low volume. (Charlie, I think of you every time I bring up this point.) Turn it up and it transforms into the best seat at the performance. I really don't think I have become lazy, but it is sooo difficult to get up and leave....for anything.

If your speakers are new wait a few months :D

Satisfaction per currency unit the ATCs are incredible.

I could go on and on......but I am just going to for now.

Congratulations !!! Job well done.

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2011-01-09 00:04

SaltyDog wrote:I love how great it sounds at low volume. (Charlie, I think of you every time I bring up this point.) Turn it up and it transforms into the best seat at the performance. I really don't think I have become lazy, but it is sooo difficult to get up and leave....for anything.

Thanks - I think of you too :D Seriously, yes, I should check out ATCs some day. It would have to be a home dem I think and not something I have time to contemplate for a while.

Christian - enjoyed reading your post btw.

christian · Post by **christian** » 2011-01-10 21:35

Charlie1 wrote: Christian - enjoyed reading your post btw.

Thanks Charlie

Music Lover · Post by **Music Lover** » 2011-01-11 00:13

Great post!
And good luck with the ATCs :D

christian · Post by **christian** » 2011-01-11 10:23

Music Lover wrote:Great post!
And good luck with the ATCs :D

Thanks, you are welcome for a listen anytime

Music Lover · Post by **Music Lover** » 2011-01-11 12:41

christian wrote:
Music Lover wrote:Great post!
And good luck with the ATCs :D
Thanks, you are welcome for a listen anytime

Looking forward to it!

ThomasOK · Post by **ThomasOK** » 2011-01-11 17:25

Interesting post - it looks like the ATC virus has hit Sweden! :)

I am glad you are enjoying them so much. As can be seen by my posts on the 100s, your findings pretty much mirror mine. I do find them to be immensely musical speakers. I also agree with your feelings on the Rega gear.

Interesting to read your comment: "Rhythm and especially drums and bass lines becomes very clear. Perhaps one could say that they have a little Naim like sound." Considering that the Naim DBL used an ATC 15" woofer, the same unit used in the massive ATC 150s and 300s, I would expect there might be some family similarity in bass performance between them. Although I imagine that is not strictly what you meant.

Expect them to be even better once you have the spikes sorted out. Enjoy!

Daniel · Post by **Daniel** » 2011-01-11 20:38

Interesting to read. I could imagine it sounds great.

ThomasOK wrote:it looks like the ATC virus has hit Sweden! :)

:D

ATC CLAN was it? Swedish branch...

christian · Post by **christian** » 2011-01-11 22:09

Daniel wrote:Interesting to read. I could imagine it sounds great.

ThomasOK wrote:it looks like the ATC virus has hit Sweden! :)
:D

ATC CLAN was it? Swedish branch...

Lets make the one with the largest ATC model the high priest of the Clan :mrgreen:
Anyone else on the forum who likes to reveal himself... 8)

Post by **lejonklou** » 2011-01-11 22:53

It was a delight to read your post, Christian! Congratulations to the new speakers, I hope you will stay happy with them for a long time.

I still haven't listened to any ATC loudspeaker but am getting more curious every day. There is no doubt in my mind that Thomas OK's contributions on this forum has helped the growth of the ATC Clan in Sweden.

christian · Post by **christian** » 2011-01-12 13:25

lejonklou wrote:It was a delight to read your post, Christian! Congratulations to the new speakers, I hope you will stay happy with them for a long time.

I still haven't listened to any ATC loudspeaker but am getting more curious every day. There is no doubt in my mind that Thomas OK's contributions on this forum has helped the growth of the ATC Clan in Sweden.

Thanks
You are welcome for a listen anytime, when you are in the area!

I do feel that speakers are much a personal thing. If a source component is better or worse we can all agree quite easily using the tune method. With speakers we can of course also use the tune method to evaluate but I also feel that you can allow yourself some freedom to have a preference on the sound character.

The ATC speakers sounds much like live music. You can both hear and feel the bass and drums and also acoustic instruments and voices sound very natural. At the same time they are very exact. I have discovered lots of new details in music that I am very familiar with. Like accentuation from a certain single drum hit or thinks like strings or voices added in the background that have not been noticeable before. This is what I have wanted my system to sound like for a long time and therefore I am very happy. When I sold the Espeks for M140 I understood that this was a clear upgrade, but still I had fun with the Espeks and there have been some elements in the sound character that I have missed ever since I let them go.

By saying this I feel that with a source component or a preamp I would never trade Tune performance for anything, but with a speaker I might be willing to trade some tune performance for a certain sound character.

The point is that I do understand and agree that ATC might not be for everyone. Lots of people like small speakers on stands like Katan or M109 and obviously ATC SCM50 does not sound like that at all. Also I feel that if Tune performance is the only thing you consider when evaluating a speaker there might (I say might as I have not done any real A to B comparisons) be a speaker from Linn that you would prefer.

SaltyDog · Post by **SaltyDog** » 2011-01-12 16:13

At some point in time you want to stop with all the evaluation of the hifi. If the front end does the job the ATCs will give you what the microphones picked up on live recordings. If the vocals and piano sound real the rest just falls into place. EVERY recording has so much to hear that was missing. I always thought Linn speakers sounded good, but were missing something. How much is the reason to ATC.

ThomasOK · Post by **ThomasOK** » 2011-01-12 18:29

I have to overall agree with both the posts above. As SaltyDog mentions there is a live quality to the ATCs that I have not heard elsewhere. While I have heard a number of more expensive speakers since I purchased the 100s several years ago, including A350As, Sonus faber Stradivaris & Amatis, Wilson WATT/PUPPYs, Wisdoms, etc.(some of which I like and others I don't at all), none have given me the musical quality I have with my ATCs.

I also, in large part, agree with Christian that speakers can be more personal than other parts of the system. I find that when it comes to sources or electronics a piece of equipment is either better or it is worse. If it is not a more tuneful piece of equipment it is not as good. You can put a typical $2000 turntable from VPI, SOTA, Oracle, Nottingham, etc. up against a Rega P3/24 and it is just obvious that the P3 is more musical. Because of this we really have very little overlap in the store when it comes to sources and electronics. But when it comes to speakers you are dealing with a product that fuses electronics, mechanics and acoustics and also has to interact with your room. Each speaker designer has aspects of performance they feel most important and others on which they are willing to compromise (even different designers within Linn over the years). This makes for speakers with different musical characteristics that will appeal to different people. Now don't get me wrong here, with all the many brands of speakers out there most are just plain inadequate (read bad). But you can find a couple, or even several, in a given price range that can reproduce music well. While I will have my preferences among those models, I will also find customers whose preference is the reverse of mine.

One of my biggest preferences is for active speakers. As far as I am concerned, the musical benefits of active operation are so large that I really feel there are no passive speakers that can compete. Even the best passive speakers I've heard, the Sonus faber Stradivari, are still missing some of the music compared to much less expensive active systems. If I had the funds, all the speakers in my systems would be active. As it is the Isobariks in my AV system are passive as I can't afford that much hardware and I don't watch movies enough to justify it. But obviously the ATCs, at least the ones we've been discussing here, have the active thing going for them.

The other big thing I feel they have going for them are the drivers. You can't have a great speaker without great drivers. If you look at the things that make for a truly linear driver you find the ATC mids and woofers are at the top of the list. We have found over the years how lowering an already low level of distortion can make the music much more natural and easier to follow - just look at the improvements wrought by the new KK audio board and the Dynamik power supplies. It seems to me that ATC has gone farther in eliminating distortions in their midrange and bass drivers than anyone out there. Which is why I'm looking forward to hear how much things improve when they get their tweeter into full production.

Post by **lejonklou** » 2011-01-12 19:36

For once, I have to disagree with you, Thomas.

As far as I am concerned, the musical benefits of active operation are so large that I really feel there are no passive speakers that can compete.

I recently visited a friend who used to have aktiv Isobariks, driven by four LK100's. The aktiv filter had Dirak. I had tuned the system carefully. He recently replaced them with a 2200/D and passive 109's. These haven't been tuned at all, just connected and put on the stands. Musically, the 2200/D and 109's are far superior. Less HiFi but much more music.

Last year, another friend used Twin and passive 242's (latest version). Sounded fantastic! He sold the Twin and activated the 242's with two 5100's. Better? Not sure, maybe.

anthony · Post by **anthony** » 2011-01-12 20:58

lejonklou wrote:For once, I have to disagree with you, Thomas.

As far as I am concerned, the musical benefits of active operation are so large that I really feel there are no passive speakers that can compete.
I recently visited a friend who used to have aktiv Isobariks, driven by four LK100's. The aktiv filter had Dirak. I had tuned the system carefully. He recently replaced them with a 2200/D and passive 109's. These haven't been tuned at all, just connected and put on the stands. Musically, the 2200/D and 109's are far superior. Less HiFi but much more music.

Last year, another friend used Twin and passive 242's (latest version). Sounded fantastic! He sold the Twin and activated the 242's with two 5100's. Better? Not sure, maybe.

Well I am very pro aktiv speakers, but I prefer 242 with a Twin to the 100s aktiv. For me the 200s are required, but then passive solos challenge them, but Klimax amps do break all the rules.
A friend uses ATC50s with KK and KDS, I always enjoy his system, but often wonder what Klimax amps would sound like.

ThomasOK · Post by **ThomasOK** » 2011-01-13 00:29

anthony wrote:
lejonklou wrote:For once, I have to disagree with you, Thomas.

As far as I am concerned, the musical benefits of active operation are so large that I really feel there are no passive speakers that can compete.
I recently visited a friend who used to have aktiv Isobariks, driven by four LK100's. The aktiv filter had Dirak. I had tuned the system carefully. He recently replaced them with a 2200/D and passive 109's. These haven't been tuned at all, just connected and put on the stands. Musically, the 2200/D and 109's are far superior. Less HiFi but much more music.

Last year, another friend used Twin and passive 242's (latest version). Sounded fantastic! He sold the Twin and activated the 242's with two 5100's. Better? Not sure, maybe.
Well I am very pro aktiv speakers, but I prefer 242 with a Twin to the 100s aktiv. For me the 200s are required, but then passive solos challenge them, but Klimax amps do break all the rules.
A friend uses ATC50s with KK and KDS, I always enjoy his system, but often wonder what Klimax amps would sound like.

OK. That's what I get for making such a sweeping statement. To clear things up I certainly didn't mean to say that Keltiks driven by 4 NAD 3020s would outperform, or even perform as well as, Katans driven passively by a pair of Solos! :roll: Obviously to get the benefits of active operation the amps and crossovers have to be of suitable quality (as an aside I personally doubt whether LK100s are really suitable for Isobariks). So there are certainly any number of cases where a superior amp will be more musical in a passive setup.

What I was trying to say is that when looking for a top performing speaker, and assuming amps of suitable quality, active operation gives musical benefits unavailable in a passive system. This is especially true if you like listening at "realistic" levels as I do, as passive speakers tend to misbehave when pushed hard. The sense of ease and freedom from strain of a well-implemented active system is something that I have yet to hear from a passive setup regardless of the quality of the amps. I think it is the "well-implemented" part of that statement that was missing from my earlier post. :)

christian · Post by **christian** » 2011-01-13 08:42

Hi
The reason for my previous remarks was merely to try to get everyone that has not yet had the pleasure to listening to ATC to have reasonable expectations.

ThomasOK wrote: The other big thing I feel they have going for them are the drivers. You can't have a great speaker without great drivers. If you look at the things that make for a truly linear driver you find the ATC mids and woofers are at the top of the list. We have found over the years how lowering an already low level of distortion can make the music much more natural and easier to follow - just look at the improvements wrought by the new KK audio board and the Dynamik power supplies. It seems to me that ATC has gone farther in eliminating distortions in their midrange and bass drivers than anyone out there. Which is why I'm looking forward to hear how much things improve when they get their tweeter into full production.

Yes I totally agree. I also feel that much of the live feeling comes from the lack of dynamic compression, that after hearing ATC, I realize any other speaker I have heard seems to have, especially in the midrange.

Thomas! The new Tweeter sound interesting. What more can you tell us?

Azazello · Post by **Azazello** » 2011-01-13 17:53

lejonklou wrote:I recently visited a friend who used to have aktiv Isobariks, driven by four LK100's. The aktiv filter had Dirak. I had tuned the system carefully. He recently replaced them with a 2200/D and passive 109's. These haven't been tuned at all, just connected and put on the stands. Musically, the 2200/D and 109's are far superior. Less HiFi but much more music.

Since this is my system, I have to make a few comments.

My youngest daughter damaged one midrange on my Isobariks and I decided to sell them rather then to go looking for a long gone replacement. I made a thorough research and given my budget I got the same advice from three of the few people I would trust my HiFi's life with (Lejonklou, Music Lover and Linnofil): Passive 109's. It turned out that one of them actually had traded active Katans with 4200 for passive 109's with 2100 and preferred the 109:s :shock:

I decided to go for the 2200/D-109 - combo since I got both for a really good price from a guy who lived just outside Glasgow I think it was in Eagelsham?

Anyway. the 109's arrived first and since I still had one LK100 left at the time, I set them up.
:|
That was not what I had expected. It sounded ok music-wise, maybe at about the same level as the Isobariks. But if I turned up the volume - nothing. I promise you - Index Plus did not sound that thin.

I was therefore rather nervous when I finally got the 2200. But that feeling disappeared the same second I connected it. It sounds absolutely fantastic. The bass is back, the dynamics, the drive - everything except frequency response is far superior to active Isbobarik's with LK100. I'm of course curious about how good the Bricks could have been with something like 2x4200 in front of them, but given that advice regarding active Katans, I have to admit that I do doubt that they can be this good. But the most important conclusion is obviously: Don't save money on power amplifiers to finance big active speakers!!!

christian · Post by **christian** » 2011-01-13 21:56

Azazello wrote:But the most important conclusion is obviously: Don't save money on power amplifiers to finance big active speakers!!!

Yeah I agree, its better to buy big active speakers with good power amplifiers :mrgreen:

Music Lover · Post by **Music Lover** » 2011-01-14 21:41

ThomasOK wrote: As SaltyDog mentions there is a live quality to the ATCs that I have not heard elsewhere. While I have heard a number of more expensive speakers since I purchased the 100s several years ago, including A350As, Sonus faber Stradivaris & Amatis, Wilson WATT/PUPPYs, Wisdoms, etc.(some of which I like and others I don't at all), none have given me the musical quality I have with my ATCs.

Still not heard a well setup pair of Komris then Thomas?

Any other ATC owners that have and can elaborate on their relative merits?

Regarding passive vs. active; Komri passive is a LOT better than active Akurate using same amps.
And,,,the 242 mkIII (with new stand) together with A2200 mkII is REALLY really good!
Prefer both setups compared with K350A, but remember I never liked these...

Spannko · Post by **Spannko** » 2011-01-21 23:54

christian wrote:
lejonklou wrote:It was a delight to read your post, Christian! Congratulations to the new speakers, I hope you will stay happy with them for a long time.

I still haven't listened to any ATC loudspeaker but am getting more curious every day. There is no doubt in my mind that Thomas OK's contributions on this forum has helped the growth of the ATC Clan in Sweden.
Thanks
You are welcome for a listen anytime, when you are in the area!

I do feel that speakers are much a personal thing. If a source component is better or worse we can all agree quite easily using the tune method. With speakers we can of course also use the tune method to evaluate but I also feel that you can allow yourself some freedom to have a preference on the sound character.

The ATC speakers sounds much like live music. You can both hear and feel the bass and drums and also acoustic instruments and voices sound very natural. At the same time they are very exact. I have discovered lots of new details in music that I am very familiar with. Like accentuation from a certain single drum hit or thinks like strings or voices added in the background that have not been noticeable before. This is what I have wanted my system to sound like for a long time and therefore I am very happy. When I sold the Espeks for M140 I understood that this was a clear upgrade, but still I had fun with the Espeks and there have been some elements in the sound character that I have missed ever since I let them go.

By saying this I feel that with a source component or a preamp I would never trade Tune performance for anything, but with a speaker I might be willing to trade some tune performance for a certain sound character.

The point is that I do understand and agree that ATC might not be for everyone. Lots of people like small speakers on stands like Katan or M109 and obviously ATC SCM50 does not sound like that at all. Also I feel that if Tune performance is the only thing you consider when evaluating a speaker there might (I say might as I have not done any real A to B comparisons) be a speaker from Linn that you would prefer.

I think it's for this reason I struggle to enjoy listening to music through the ATC's - I'm sorry, I just don't find them very tuneful.

PS This is a "Tune Dem" based forum, hence the remark

christian · Post by **christian** » 2011-02-07 08:48

Spannko wrote:I think it's for this reason I struggle to enjoy listening to music through the ATC's - I'm sorry, I just don't find them very tuneful.

PS This is a "Tune Dem" based forum, hence the remark

Obviously I do not agree with this. I find them very tuneful but I also find the Linn speakers maybe even more tuneful. But to me the ATC´s have so many more other virtues that make them an easy choice for me. The most prominent would be the sense of live music in your room. Actually I went to audition a pair of A242 just the other day and having lived with the ATCs now for some time I felt that the difference was even bigger than what I remembered from previous listening sessions. I do like the A242s but to me the ATCs makes the music so much more enjoyable to listen to. Anyway it´s good to have different views and to balance the thoughts on ATC.

I have recently completed my project with adding spikes to the speaker stands. The Spikes comes from a set that Linn makes for the stands for M109. So spikes have been fitted between the stands and the floor and also between the stands and the speakers. All this was a worthwhile improvement that I think improved tune quite a lot. I am still very happy with my system!

ThomasOK · Post by **ThomasOK** » 2011-02-09 00:46

Glad to hear you got the spikes in place, it is quite a worthwhile improvement. Interestingly, I did pretty much the same thing as you - I ordered a set of the top spikes for the Katan stand and drilled and threaded the ATC stands for them. As I remember I had to use a washer as well since the Katan spikes weren't threaded all the way to the spike.