SaltyDog's System

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Post by lejonklou »

SaltyDog wrote:Charlie, I always enjoy your posts
+1

I meant to post some thoughts recently that popped up after one of your slightly philosophical postings. But somehow they drifted away with the flux fumes of my soldering wire...
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Post by SaltyDog »

Stravinsky-L'histoire Du Soldat Conducted by Robert Mandell - Ars Nova

Respighi Rossiana Robert Zeller Vienna State Opera Orchestra Image

This is the best I have ever heard reproduced music. I'm listening on my system. The best recording I've ever heard.

24/192 From High Definition Tape Transfers.

Best $18.00 I've ever spent on music.
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Post by SaltyDog »

This might not be the best place for this, but here goes.

I'm considering adding one or a pair of subs to my system. I'm leaning toward ATCs. They have XLR connections. I use the XLRs on the KK for the main speakers.

I have seen recommendations for connecting sizmiks from the RCAs on the KK and using the KKs XLR on the main speakers. I belive the sizmiks have RCA inputs so this sounds like a very neat solution. But I would need to go from RCA to XLR or split the XLRs if that's something that would work.

I've been through ThomasOK's post on his sub. Somehow I missed exactly how he (you if applicable :roll: ) has the connections. I got the part about one channel being more musical than the "Y" cable feeding both left and right. Would it matter which channel if using just one sub?

What experience does the group have when adding subs regarding the positioning of the main speakers? Hope that leaving them in present position is the way to go.

Please feel free to pose or answer any questions I haven't brought up. For me at least this is entering uncharted waters. I have NO previous experience with subs.
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Post by lejonklou »

SaltyDog wrote:What experience does the group have when adding subs regarding the positioning of the main speakers? Hope that leaving them in present position is the way to go.
I'd say yes, the optimal position of your main speakers without sub will not change when you add a sub.

The main interacting element with the sub is the room, so in my opinion, you should position the sub optimally within the room. That is, evaulated when only listening to the sub. Start in a corner and gradually move away from the room boundaries, optimising one dimension at a time. After the optimal position is found, you feed the sub with the signal going to the main speaker that is closest to the sub.

After tuning the sub itself (rollon and rolloff frequency etc.), still listening to just the sub, you will finally need to tune the level of the sub to match your main speakers. This final step is done with both main speakers and sub playing.

If you get it right, and the sub is good enough, it will contribute to your musical experience. If the positioning is not right, or if the quality of the sub is lower than your main speakers, it will probably reduce your experience.

Best of luck, Salty!
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Post by SaltyDog »

Are there any ways, techniques, or music that can used to tell if a sub is needed? I am musically thrilled with my system. In Rebbecca Pidgeon's rendition of Spanish Harlem the bass is pretty darn good. I understand the lowest note is 49 Hz. My speakers roll off (not sure if this technically correct terminology) at 38 Hz. My dealer reports that the low 20s are measured in setups of several other ATC 50 setups. I prefer the bass on the ATCs to the keltiks/4klouts. The keltiks are rated 20-20,000.

Are there any more difficult questions I should be wrestling with instead? :roll: :lol: :wink:
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Post by christian »

When I bought my ATC SCM-50 I had the opportunity to try the ATC C4 sub at home. The dealer said that this was a common set-up. I also sent an email directly to ATC and they said that their general advice was to use the 15" sub with the SCM-50 and larger models but in my case, as I was only intending to use it for music and my room is not very big (about 35 m2), they thought that the C4 would work.

I connected it through a XLR Y-cable, signal was split by the Y-cable close to one of the main speakers where the Y-cable split the signal so that one went to the main speaker and one to the sub.

Anyway I did not buy the C4 although I got a very good price for it mostly because when you see it in real life it is absolutely huge and I could not find a place in the room for it that I (or my wife) could stand. The Linn Klimax 345 looks small compared to the C4...

As for performance my feeling is that it is a good sub but I can't be sure. When it was connected the midrange got an even more natural feeling, especially voices where affected in a positive way. But by the end of the day I felt that I was so happy with the SCM-50 that the money could be spent better elsewhere in the system. Also my skills in installing a sub are not great and I did not manage to get any real musical improvement by using the sub.
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Post by SaltyDog »

christian,

Thanks so much for the feedback. Exactly the kind of thing I was looking for.

My dealer recommended one 15" C6. Reading in Jim Smith's book "Getting Better Sound", his recommendation is that you must use two subs if acoustic music reproduction is the goal. It is. So two or none is one school of thought. (Sound confused?) No way 2 15" would work for me, my room, my wife or wallet. So 2 C4s? Well not without a demo.

If you see my post in http://www.lejonklou.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=872 my seating/position change has brought some improvement. So the questions linger, but I feel much more willing to see if I can just wait out this bug.
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Post by christian »

Hi
Have you considered SCM-100 or even SCM-150 instead of getting a sub?
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Post by SaltyDog »

When I went for a listen that was set up by the dealer at another customers place, he had 50s. He had tried 100s. He said they were overwhelming in the room he had. I was really enjoying his 50s. He is a classically trained violinist and his newest venture involves the Steinway piano in the next room at his place. His piano instructor is THE boogie piano man in Chicago. The only weakness they have found with the 50s was with the lowest 3 keys on the piano and these are lower than the 38Hz. ATC say is the roll off point of 50s. I was told that very little music is written that use the lower 3 keys anyway. I was told that at some of the frequent parties held at his place they have many musicians over and it is a favorite thing to have some people playing in the HIFi room and seeing if those in the piano room can be fooled by the Linn/ATCs.

Anyway my understanding is that the sub is more for the feeling of space than the lowest notes. And the C4 and C6 both have 1000 watt amplifiers vs. the 250 Watts of amplification in the 50s, 100s, and 150s. The 150s use the same drivers as the C6 but the same amp pack as the 50s. The 100s the same driver as the C4s and the same amp pack as the 50s. Since I was and still am satisfied with the 50s I decided to go the more powerful route to more bass if and when the time comes. In the meanwhile we can suffer together :lol: :lol:

The other thing (as if there is only one) is to see what a local dealer (no real Linn and no ATC at all near here) would be willing to demo that might convince me to go a more economical route. So for now I suffer with the best system I've ever heard.
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Post by christian »

SaltyDog wrote: In the meanwhile we can suffer together :lol: :lol:
Yeah!

Thanks, great info.

BTW. I friend of mine who currently is playing on A2200 / A242 came over to listen to the ATCs. First once, then twice. Today he told me that he has made models in strong paper of the SCM-50 and SCM-100, just so see how they would look in his room. Once you have heard ATC there is no way back :mrgreen:
Kind regards
Christian
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Post by SaltyDog »

Dimension wise and how they look in room - The 50s Towers are very close match to keltiks.
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Post by Music Lover »

SaltyDog wrote:Dimension wise and how they look in room - The 50s Towers are very close match to keltiks.
Talking about it, any ATC speaker that look like Bricks? 8)
It's all about musical understanding!
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Post by christian »

Music Lover wrote:Talking about it, any ATC speaker that look like Bricks? 8)
Yea, Sure the classic models, which I have, look a lot like the bricks. I would say that the bricks are somewhere between SCM-50 and SCM-100 in size.

You can see a few pictures on the ATC website.


http://www.atcloudspeakers.co.uk/product.php
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Post by ThomasOK »

I'll start with Music Lover's question and work my way back. The classic 100s, which I own, are the closest in look to the Isobariks. Like Isobariks they are a big box on an open frame metal stand. They are about a couple of inches larger in each dimension so they don't appear to be that much bigger. However, since they sound the best out into the room about 18", as opposed to the close wall placement of the Bricks, they are more imposing in anything besides a large room. I think this photo gives you a good idea of the size and look:

Image

Now onto the question of a sub with the ATCs. I was out of town for the holidays when the question (which was at least partially aimed at me) was asked or I would have answered sooner. So, lets start with connection. I have my ATCs connected to my KK through the unbalanced (RCA) outputs as I felt it sounded more musical than the balanced outs. This leaves me free to use the XLR for the subwoofer. As per Fredriks comment I have the sub, which is to the left of and behind my left speaker, connected only to the left XLR output from the KK. As I mentioned in my posts on adding the sub I found this was a touch more tuneful than having it connected to both channels output.

As to the setup, Fredrik's post covers the technique quite well with one exception related to REL subs. I do agree that you do not change the position of the main speakers when you add a sub as the speakers are positioned to where they interact most musically with the room. The sub needs to be set up the same way, starting from the corner as Fredrik mentioned. With REL subs you will also find that the rotation of the sub makes a difference with it sounding best aimed roughly diagonally across the room. The difference in the setup technique with the REL subs is that the crossover is tuned to the main speakers just like the level is so the tuning of those settings need to be done with the main speakers playing. The positioning can be done most easily with the mains disconnected although I am used to doing it with them connected as well and the result is the same either way in the setups I've done.

This brings us to the question of the value of the sub. I don't see the main job of a sub being adding low notes you otherwise wouldn't hear. There are really very few notes that are lower than what an ATC 50 will reproduce and even fewer below what the 100 puts out. The rolloff figures ATC give are pretty conservative and they are likely to go a bit lower in room. It certainly seems to me that my 100s, which are rated down to 32Hz, go as low as my Isobariks which I know were good to at least 25Hz. I find that a good sub gives an improvement in the quality of all music well up into the midrange giving a more natural and tuneful quality to vocals, guitars, pianos, violins, etc. as Christian noted. It also does give the music a more spacious quality giving more of the feel of the performance area. I certainly feel this is a worthwhile improvement.

Of course, whether it is a cost effective upgrade depends on the rest of your system. As it comes at the end of the playback part of the chain it certainly isn't the first place to upgrade a system. But if you have optimized or maxed out the source and control parts of your system as you and I have then I find a sub a worthwhile upgrade (although I'd put a Harmoni rack before a sub in the hierarchy as it improves the source and control quite noticeably). Again, I must comment that my finding of the improvements from subs is based solely on my experience with REL subs, the B1 being the one I use in my current setup. And if you are going to get a sub it is important to get one big enough to be able to keep up with the output levels of your main speakers. This has more to do with the overall design of the sub so you can't just go on driver size or amplifier power. I hope this is all helpful.
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Post by SaltyDog »

Update.

Changed the cables from the KK to the ATCs. Was using the Belden (I originally posted Belkin, which is wrong, in the 1st post) supplied by the ATC dealer. Now using Mogami 2534 quad XLR microphone cable. These are 15 ft. long as opposed to the 30 ft. Beldens.

So much better. The thought of a sub has vanished. The high end is so much more defined. The sound of cymbals are distinct. The type and how and where they are struck is coming through. So much more information is passed into the room. A real finding the entire music collection again thing. Bigger improvement than expected. I keep noticing the wife and daughters dancing and singing along.

Its beginning to feel a lot like Christmas. Merry Christmas to each of you and yours.
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Post by matthias »

SaltyDog,

Merry Christmas to you and two questions:

1.) Did you go XLR(KK) to XLR(ATC) or RCA to XLR ?

2.) How did you connect the four poles plus screen of the Mogami to the three poles of the XLR(ATC) ?

Thanks.

KR

matthias
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Post by SaltyDog »

I bought factory made cables. XLR-XLR. $55.00 EACH.
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Post by Charlie1 »

SaltyDog wrote:Its beginning to feel a lot like Christmas. Merry Christmas to each of you and yours.
Good to hear Salty that you have found a benefit and don't feel the need for a sub.

Happy Xmas to you too, and all other forum members.
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Post by SaltyDog »

Just want to update. As those that read the DS Linn forum may have heard, I am very much into using jRiver Media Center v17. A new update was just installed yesterday. I don't know if I missed it before (likely), but now I have my KDS reporting that it is playing the Red Book ripped FLACs in 24/44.1.

This is on a scale of improvement similar to the jump in firmware from Bute to Cara. In other words IIRC the biggest step in DS improvement Sound Quality wise.

Most noticeable is the leading edge of each sound. Pitch is more realistic.This brings big improvement being able to tell if there is a choir, background singers, or just an accompaniment in the vocals. The left hand, right hand piano differentiation is clear, not to be mistaken for two piano/keyboards.

So far I have not exceeded the 30s on the KK volume. Can't wait to crank it up when I won't be waking the family.

TuneDem - following each performer, switching my focus from one to the other is feeling very natural. No effort in listening. Totally involving no matter what I've played. Really enjoying those unheard CDs I bought in batches of 20-25 that I forgot about. I have not yet skipped listening to a single song.

The software is the most complete and polished application for music I've ever used. It is on par with the likes of Microsoft Access in power and flexibility. Worth the price just in function. The musical improvement is worth more than price for sure. Free 30 day trial. Check it out if you use windows. Don't waste your time or money on the apple versions. They are sub-par.
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Post by monkeydevil »

Do you mean that jriver upsamples the 16/44 files and this gives an improvement when the files arrive to the DS?
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Post by SaltyDog »

Technically I just don't know how it does what it does.

That is what I think it means. AFAIK jRiver upsamples everything to 64-bit then somehow it passes it to the DS at 24-bit.

I know jR is a Media Server, and a Control Point. I think it is a Media Renderer and Library Database too. It can play just through the computer and Songcast can be used to play the DS a sound card. This setup is not what I have set. I use what is called WASPI-Event style that lets the DS pull music from the NAS . I just it pulls it through the PC. I just don't how it does it. I guess the server part is needed to be running all the time same as the other ways the DS is served - Twonky, or Asset (ones I've messed with). Twonky is the only one that resides on my NAS, but I have used it on a MAC and it needed the Mac running then. Asset and jRiver (the good un) need to be on windows machine.
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Post by SaltyDog »

Add properly torqued and positioned speakers to the mix and I now have the best system I have had the pleasure of hearing.

Thank-you ThomasOK for your help.

I updated to the latest beta firmware. Certainly no loss of tune.
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Post by SaltyDog »

Sparing no expense, today I replaced the GS105 at the office with an 8 way switch. Brought the GS105 home and placed it in the system. Rerouted the Cat5 from switch to KDS.

I figured I would hear an improvement since ML and then others have reported favorable results.

Nice.

Thanks guys.
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Post by Music Lover »

If you have the possibility, please also test a GS108.
For some strange reason, the 8 ports Netgears are generally better.
It's all about musical understanding!
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Post by SaltyDog »

Thanks for the tip ML.

I am in the camp of it shouldn't make a difference, but can clearly hear it does. My lack of time keeps me from participating on the cutting edge. I have to say the testing is interesting, but has got to be a time sponge.

Thanks to all those that spend the time to test and report.
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