Hermanns System

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Re: Hermanns System

Post by nmakowsk »

Hermann wrote: 2022-02-03 14:48 Thanks Tony.

Despite all the enthusiasm, I do see a small drop of melancholy. As I already described, it is incredibly difficult to hear quietly and move me permanently at the limit of the Tundra stereo. So it's time for the Tundra monos.

There's a lot to say about R/2 and Ekstatik and I think you know what I mean.

Today, for example, the thought of endless discussions came up to what extent a sound image can be perceived outside of loudspeakers. So far I only had this with the briks and at times the effect was lost and only partially found again with lots of trial and error. The Ekstatik just shows how it is placed really well in the room. Ahmad Jamal's Alhambra, for example, how percussion can be perceived outside the right box. And then some opinions that the LP12 had mutated towards hi-fi as a result of the upgrade or would sound more digital. My experience there is diametrically opposed.
Hi Hermann, I wanted to relay something about the Isobarik/Tundra amp combination that I learned in my system and room setup. I know you have struggled at times getting your Briks to sound the way you have heard them in the past. Your quoted post here reminds me of when I was trying to fight the urge the play with the volume soo loud because only at those volumes will the Briks seem to integrate with the room and energize it to give that full musical experience. At lower volume levels, the various parts of the music sound hazy and not cohesive. Vocals just don't sing to draw you into that magical world. So several years ago I had this idea that maybe my Tundra stereo was just not producing enough power and limiting my fun. Perhaps the Tundra monos might solve my issue because of the double power that each speaker would be receiving. The specs suggested something on the order of 23 watts increasing to 40 watts for each speaker so it sounded very promising. I thought I could offer the Isobariks more power and have them play louder for me so I could enjoy them with a lower volume overall. Well that extra power of the Tundra Monos didn't change how loud the Isobariks played overall. They still clipped at the same quite high volume and I did hear improvement in the grip of the low bass over the stereo unit. I concluded that the Tundra stereo had enough power but it was the way the Isobariks interact with my room positioned at the side walls which was the reason I needed the volume up so high. In my room there is fireplace brick behind the speakers that sticks out about 16 inches preventing them from being close to the back wall. Their proximity to the side walls dictates how much bass output I perceive and there is a slight toe in to focus the vocals towards the listening sofa. Which model Tundra stereo are you using? My stereo 2.2 model falls under the list of serial numbers which can't be upgraded any farther so I have been more focused on source and preamp upgrades instead. For me the Tundra monos can wait.

Also, I have been using Giella Pi as my preamp instead of the kikkin 2.2 and I still have the urge to turn the volume up even with the better volume control in use. On the Giella Pi, I like the volume to be near the 12 O clock position which is probably 0DB but it just sounds right at these elevated levels. I think the Isobarik is very picky about placement and needs the correct tune based positioning down to millimeters of change to get that extra "sound image perceived outside of the speakers." One thing I still need to do is investigate skeets instead of the spikes which go through carpet into the concrete slab underneath.
LP12/Kar/ARad1/Kore/Ekos SE1/NOKTable/Adikt/Slipsik 8.0/Giella Pi 1.2/Tundra Stereo 2.2/1992 Briks
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Re: Hermanns System

Post by Hermann »

Hello nmakowsk,

thank you for sharing your experience. The fact that the volume suddenly takes such a high priority is solely due to the quality of the (now) entire Systen. Previously, it was also possible to listen louder, but from a certain point it did not work. That gave me pause for thought and was also strongly music-dependent. Rhythmic music also sounded rhythmic, but not as I heard it before. Only the occupation with all the details of the system, i.e. a tuning of each composition to each other, gave the right result. My excursion did not omit the set-up either. The Naim Frame was a complete failure and could not even keep up with a Mana setup Phase 1. After that was solved, the briks. First determined the correct postition, then back to mana. In the process, some assumptions regarding the briks fell again, such as there must be a massive wall behind it. Currently it plays very close to a plaster wall and is more musical than ever.

But now to the certainly 4- 6 rooms in which my briks played. They had sizes of 16sqm, 25sqm (pure wooden house), 170sqm (wooden floor) with 4,5m high ceilings and 160sqm with 11m high ceilings. In each room they were placed the way I personally liked it. I have never looked for an optimal point or the like. Even now they stand anything but optimal. Bass is definitely "swallowed" by the wall opposite. I'm working on that right now. Nevertheless, the bass has now reached a level that I can easily live with.

I can only recommend to every briks lover the Mana stands for briks, are of course hard to find used and that has a good reason. I always saw the bass range of the briks as difficult and these stands really correct that. From my experience it makes them much more setup independent. Of course, you are not exempt from the care of alignment.

But you describe an impression that I can not understand. Briks sound not only loud, but also quiet to the same extent. A dividing apart of the musical presentation or similar I could never determine. (If I have understood you correctly). Possibly they are too far apart or too close together.

Currently I observe something like an addiction factor that pushes me to go much deeper into the music when playing vinyl. For this, loudness is sometimes useful. The Tundra stereo do not limit my music enjoyment in any way, I would only have it sometimes a little louder. Your experience that the Tundra mono present the low bass better suits my expectations. That is a reason for me, even if they do not play louder.

Unfortunately, I can't say anything about the other preamps. In the meantime, the Sagatun monos play for me. The Tundra stereo is quite new and will be exchanged for monos as soon as available.
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Re: Hermanns System

Post by Hermann »

After the upgrade at the beginning of the year from the Kandid to the Ekstatik and to the KRadikal/2, only 150 sides of the record have been played, so about 50 hours of operating time.

After the first records, the usual merits of a new pickup system came to an end. But one thing was already clear, the Kandid had no chance to even come close to reaching the musicality of the Ekstatik, although it is an excellent system in itself.

The first real improvement after about 20 records. It is definitely the bass that starts swinging, dancing, creating a groove that pushes the musical events to a new level. This is immediately audible, especially in my relatively low-bass system. Also immediately audible, since the lower frequencies have obviously become more concise. In any case, the music swings in a way that has never been heard before. But the height range also changes significantly. Malia's voice used to have a hiss on the S sounds, which is now almost gone. And I assume that these will disappear completely.

What the Ekstatik reveals of information from the records, which I'm sure I've heard hundreds of times, is amazing in and of itself. It's also not something that could possibly be guessed with the Kandid, it just wasn't repeated. Pentangle (The Pentangle from 1968) is one of those records that has been played maybe a thousand times and yet the Ekstatik shows what the musicians are really capable of. The acoustic view of musical perfection turns every record into an overwhelming experience.

Another change after about 50 records. Again, the bass gains depth and presence, so I believe there will be little or no improvement. However, I read about changes even after 200 hours of playtime. But what impresses me the most is the timing with which the musicians bring their instruments together, which is certainly due to the Radikal/2.

But maybe some more insights with Fredriks products. Weeks ago we had very strong thunderstorms, so that system was disconnected from the power supply a few times. I changed the order of the individual components in the power strip.

Previously the order was:
1. Power Strip - KR/2 > Entity > Sagatun Left (SL) > Sagatun Right (SR) > Tundra Stereo
2. Power Strip - Naim NDS
3. Circuit – WiFi Repeater

Change 1. Power strip
1. Power strip - SL > SR > KR/2 > Entity > Tundra

It showed a slightly better freshness of the musical impression, but somehow didn't fit. When I plugged the KR/2 into a different circuit, it was more pleasant to hear. Obviously, Entity and KR/2 don't fit next to each other in the same socket strip in my setup, because swapping the two positions wasn't to my liking either. As well as swapping SL for SR in order.

In the end this is the best arrangement in my system:
1. Power Strip - Entity > SL > SR > KR/2 > Tundra
2. Power strip - Naim NDS
3. Circuit – WiFi Repeater

Not much experimenting in the future. A last setup for the LPT2, since it was planned anyway and also because Tom once again shared new insights (thanks again at this point. You can find it in the Karousel thread). A little patience for new examples, the new torque wrench recommended by Tom was delivered from the USA the day before yesterday (don't ask about the delivery costs). The new setup of the LP12 will then be early next week.

Then it should be good except for two changes that are still on the agenda. I'm waiting for the Tundra Monos (TMs)to decide if the Källa will be tested again. If the descriptions of the TMs are fulfilled, the Källa will be integrated. And that will be the end of a long and eventful journey.

Nevertheless, some thoughts on the past few years, in which various tests were in the foreground. On the one hand, the time was very insightful, on the other hand, it made me switch to "test mode" too often. Even today, I occasionally catch myself thinking about the quality of the music instead of just enjoying it. In other words, to take in the positives of the rendition rather than fixate on what could be improved. Can I really immerse myself in the music and leave all my thoughts behind? Of course thats possible, even if I still only get deep bass in homeopathic doses. Therefore, the room will soon be "measured" acoustically and there may be changes that meet the goal.
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Re: Hermanns System

Post by matthias »

Hermann wrote: 2022-07-03 07:56 Then it should be good except for two changes that are still on the agenda. I'm waiting for the Tundra Monos (TMs)to decide if the Källa will be tested again. If the descriptions of the TMs are fulfilled, the Källa will be integrated. And that will be the end of a long and eventful journey.
Thanks Hermann for the update, I suppose you will get then TM 3s, looking forward to your second test of Källa.
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Re: Hermanns System

Post by Hermann »

Hi matt,

from what Tom has said recently, that seems to be the case and obviously TMs won't be available until the end of this year. Luckily, it's not as if the wait is over with poor music reproduction. As the saying goes, it can always be better?
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Re: Hermanns System

Post by ThomasOK »

Nice update, Hermann. I certainly resonate with the musical improvements you are hearing from the Ekstatik and the KR/2. The tests with the power strips are interesting. I have some power strip tests to do myself and will take what you have found into account.
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Re: Hermanns System

Post by Hermann »

Thanks Tom.
I would be interested to know to what extent the top plate of the LP12 has been changed/improved over the years. The TP on my LP12 is certainly older than 30 years. Is an exchange worth it?
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Re: Hermanns System

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Hermann wrote: 2022-07-06 16:20 Thanks Tom.
I would be interested to know to what extent the top plate of the LP12 has been changed/improved over the years. The TP on my LP12 is certainly older than 30 years. Is an exchange worth it?
There are basically three versions of the top plate. The early top plates were a bit thicker than they were later on but that changed by the late 70s. The other change came in the early 90s which was a time of several LP12 innovations: Cirkus bearing and sub chassis, Lingo, Ekos, Trampolin, and the top plate with an additional stud in the corner. This is the third top plate with the stud welded on near the motor mounting area. This goes through a hole drilled into one of the larger corner braces that were incorporated into the plinth in the mid 80s. That is the latest top plate.

Is it worth changing? It depends on who you talk to. The idea of the stud is to make sure that the top plate is tight in that corner so that there is no rattling and the motor is held solidly, which is done with a relatively low torque. It is bad for the LP12 if the top plate rattles anywhere along the three sides that rest on the wood support strips of the plinth. It is the back and front corner where a rattling if you tap it lightly is most common. Because of the motor that corner is the one of most concern but neither should rattle. The top plate is actually bent, or curved, so that when the two main bolts are tightened down to the plinth it is a pressure fit to the strips and blocks. Indeed, the Linn description is "Bent & Finished Top Plate With Stud". If any rattling is found the fix is to remove the top plate and carefully bend it in whatever way necessary to get a proper fit. This is one of those more art than science skills one develops setting up hundreds of LP12s. So some LP12 technicians say that if the top plate is bent properly by someone who knows what they are doing the stud is not needed.

I disagree. Why? Simply because there is a torque for the nut that holds that bolt down which gives the most musical perfromance. Since there is one precise torque that is most musical I see no way you will get that precise amount of tension on the corner without the stud and nut fastening it. (Also the torque varies with the nut used and there is one style of nut - the nylock type, that I prefer to use there.) It isn't a big difference but it is an audible one. So to me it is worth doing, especially on a mid to top line LP12. Also it is not an expensive part at around $320 US but there is a fair bit of labor involved. You are talking of near complete disassembly and reassembly of the LP12 including attaching the five chassis bolts and nuts, which are not included with the top plate. Don't forget that some re-bending of the top plate may be necessary for the proper fit, even with new from the factory top plates. So not necessarily a task for the faint of heart!
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Re: Hermanns System

Post by Hermann »

Wow Tom! I did'nt expect this extensive background information and explanations. Thanks a lot for that. A check shows that three corners don't rattle, maybe the corner of the switch does. At least the tone is significantly brighter than at the other three corners. Does that have to make me think?

It seems I don't need a new top plate, even if the existing one might have to be bent if it had to. I would definitely trust myself to do that.
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Re: Hermanns System

Post by Hermann »

It's hard to believe. Today the recordings were made with the old Karousel setup and unknown details are showing up again in my reference recordings. How long will this go on?

Not sure yet on which day of the week the new value will be transferred to the LP12 as I am currently "actively" riding the Tour de France ;-))
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Re: Hermanns System

Post by Hermann »

The new value is transferred to the Karousel. Contrary to what I had feared, things went smoothly. At first I thought the 21 nut was skipped, but it wasn't. Turned back once and then retransmitted the value. You can't feel a lot of movement on the torque wrench, but you can hear it all the more afterwards. I've never heard an LP12 so musically. And again it's mainly the bass that wins, but also the overall musicality. Thanks Tom, that's really a big step! The recordings tomorrow.

Since I couldn't find a supplier in Europe, the torque wrench came from the States. In this respect, a somewhat expensive undertaking for a single setup. If an active user of the forum in Europe wants to do the setup, I would be willing to send the torque wrench. If you are interested please PM.
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Re: Hermanns System

Post by Hermann »

Found time today. Comparison bottom screw Karousel 2.4Nm+2 against 7Nm

Kari Bremnes


A1. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JMdChm ... sp=sharing

B1. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Fe5l3J ... sp=sharing

Malia

A2. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Jc9vEy ... sp=sharing

B2. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gehQri ... sp=sharing

Pudu Varano

A3. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1l2HGen ... sp=sharing

B3. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1M4Zxs7 ... sp=sharing

Unfortunately Google Drive seems to have problems again, files have to be downloaded, sorry.
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Re: Hermanns System

Post by David Neel »

I prefer B to A on the Kari Bremnes track, and after just the intro to the others the same difference was apparent. I can see a second torque driver in my future... or maybe my dealer can do this.
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Re: Hermanns System

Post by lejonklou »

I only listened to the first two tracks. I prefer A on both.
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Re: Hermanns System

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David Neel wrote: 2022-07-12 23:05 I prefer B to A on the Kari Bremnes track, and after just the intro to the others the same difference was apparent. I can see a second torque driver in my future... or maybe my dealer can do this.
After seeing that Fredrik (with whom I normally agree) disagrees with me I have re-listened. This time I used the laptop speakers and not earbuds (not really intentional, the USB to headphone jack adapter was in use elsewhere). And I've changed my mind. What was strident and edgy on A has become cleaner, with insight and nuance instead. And B is more confused. Now I'm confused.
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Re: Hermanns System

Post by ThomasOK »

Thanks so much for the clips Hermann. I listened to the Karl Bremnes and Pudu Varano tracks. I preferred the A clip on both. Especially on the Pudu Varano track I found the change anything but subtle. On that track I listened to B first and even without having heard A it sounded to me like something was wrong with the drums in the opening (being a percussionist I am sensitive to the sound of various drums). Clip A just sounded much more like real music. I like the Pudu Varano A track so much I've continued listening to it as I type this (unfortunately it just ended). What is the album so I can look for it?
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Re: Hermanns System

Post by Hermann »

Thanks to everyone so far.

@Tom, that's exactly why I posted Puddu Varano. Album is "Time to grow".

https://open.spotify.com/album/5M1bwVgmcDEgUgJgQcVOti

I also recorded another drum track by Ginger Baker (Blind Faith), "Do what you like", from which only the drum solo is recorded. You can hear it very well there too.
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Re: Hermanns System

Post by Hermann »

Thanks again to everyone.

After my last statement, it is actually clear that the examples under "A" are from the carousel with 7Nm.

With the expected growth of Ekstatik, I only listen to music until Tundra mono appear.
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Re: Hermanns System

Post by ThomasOK »

Just finally listened to the Malia track. Maybe I should have listened to it first. A really kills it compared to B, her voice is amazing.
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Re: Hermanns System

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Hermann wrote: 2022-07-16 14:17 Thanks again to everyone.

After my last statement, it is actually clear that the examples under "A" are from the carousel with 7Nm.

With the expected growth of Ekstatik, I only listen to music until Tundra mono appear.
Excellent!

I was afraid that B might be 7 Nm, but very pleased to hear that It’s A.

Thomas has sent me the tool that will allow me to do these higher torques. Not sure if it will tilt my opinion of Karousel, but if it does I will welcome it.

Tundra Mono is in progress, by the way.
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Re: Hermanns System

Post by Hermann »

This setting is actually a big leap towards musicality.

In fact, I expected Fredrik that you would draw the right conclusions. As before with the tests of the other components.

Regarding Tundra mono, this is of course very good news.
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Re: Hermanns System

Post by Hermann »

For the summer break a comparison between Kandid - KR/1 and Ekstatik - KR/2.

Malia

A. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rb8hBn ... sp=sharing

B. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1oppiuI ... sp=sharing
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Re: Hermanns System

Post by lejonklou »

Apart from the striking difference in tonal balance (which appears strange given how expensive cartridges usually measure - flat), this was the first time that I listened to the end of the Malia track and really wished that it would continue. That was with the “x” clip.

Listening to the other one, I lost interest. Many of the sounds don’t seem to contribute to the whole. Even the bass kind of goes astray occasionally.
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Re: Hermanns System

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lejonklou wrote: 2022-07-20 19:26 Apart from the striking difference in tonal balance (which appears strange given how expensive cartridges usually measure - flat), this was the first time that I listened to the end of the Malia track and really wished that it would continue. That was with the “x” clip.
Agree,
I am just curious:
Is the track with Spotify and Källa in this context similar to the "x" clip?
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Re: Hermanns System

Post by ThomasOK »

I am liking the x version, or clip B as well. On x the voice is much better and you can hear the obvious reverb they put on it clearly. All the other instruments come through better as well. I find it interesting that Linn claims that the Ekstatik and new Kendo MC cartridges are the flattest in tonal balance that they have ever made. Based on that comment I suppose the tonal balance difference is not all that surprising.
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