Hermanns System

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Re: Hermanns System

Post by Hermann »

@ tokenbrit
NDS ist still driven by 555PS.

Thank you Guys for your assessment. An amazing consensus.

The number 1 is of course the LP12, that's right. And now it might be difficult. Number 2 is the Källa and 3 the NDS.

However, I don't want to leave it like that, because there is a but, actually several.

One is this. Both streamers clearly show the musical progressions, without question. The Källa, however, is able to show the connection to the next line, instrument or voice a little better at the end of a progression. This is more difficult with Naim. Also just by the fact that Källa shows how it is done. Källa creates an understanding in the musical microcosm for connections that did not come to mind before. Now it is not the case that with Naim the impression is given that the developers have agreed that what the listener does not hear, he cannot evaluate. But Källa makes it clear that there is a bit more to it than Naim gives out.

Another is the bass. Källa is lighter, less grounded, but very precise. Again, the NDS slightly washes out but with a massive and already stoic performance that gives the overall picture a good foundation. This is for me the key area of Källa's presentation, as discussed further below.

Källa compresses the room a bit in depth relative to the Naim, which by no means loses transparency or makes it harder to follow the musical lines. That's not the case. But the Naim gives space around the notes and that is more pleasing. If here and there it almost hides tiny details slightly blurred.

And now, from my point of view, the most important. That's where I have to go back to the Entity. When this was used on me, it was quite a challenge for an old Naimie like me. I have known the Naim sound for over 40 years. And then a cheeky little thing comes along and says it can be done differently and does a lot of things right! And this against the undoubtedly excellent Naim Superline in full configuration! Fortunately Marco gave me the time to deal with it. It could have turned out differently.

The Entity already changed the slightly leaned back Naim sound of my system very hard and showed impressively how it can be done differently. A direct presentation that creates attention where you want to listen, where you are in the action. This was new to me and after Fredrik set up an update I was convinced. What remained is the direct approach to the music.

Then came the Sagatuns Mono. To put it briefly, they cemented Entity's claim in a remarkable way, in that there were no questions about whether everything was right. The synergy of the two units is clear. Many will have witnessed my struggle to get the Naim units, better their sound. In the end, the emotional enthusiasm for music and the certainty that the Sagatuns really stand up to the Naim 552 won out.

And now Källa. Atypical for me in this consideration. Atypical in that suddenly appears a fine, slightly relaxed, will not say rather Naim typical presentation, which supports the previously described less. And that is atypical. I had expected a massive confirmation of the impressions of Entity and Sagatuns regarding the presentation. But this did not materialize. Suddenly, the sound stage has slipped back a bit again and I know this very well and for a very long time. Compared to the Naim, the Källa seems perhaps a bit polite, though not reserved. I miss the clear announcement of the Entity or the massive confirmation of the Sagatuns.

My point. Källa has his merits, which in themselves in streaming certainly offer the musical maximum. In the musical presentation, however, he moves a little out of the line Entity/Sagatuns mono.

My conclusion: Källa in the tradition of the Entity and Sagatun monos I know and with the sovereignty in the bass as the NDS and it would fit seamlessly into the chain, nor could I imagine a better streamer. Källa is new, let's not forget that. And like me, most here have noted, Fredrik doesn't just sit and let things go. I'm sure Källa will get updates that reach the level of Entity 1.1 and Sagatuns mono that I've gained.
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Re: Hermanns System

Post by matthias »

Hermann wrote: 2021-12-02 09:58 My conclusion: Källa in the tradition of the Entity and Sagatun monos I know and with the sovereignty in the bass as the NDS and it would fit seamlessly into the chain, nor could I imagine a better streamer. Källa is new, let's not forget that. And like me, most here have noted, Fredrik doesn't just sit and let things go. I'm sure Källa will get updates that reach the level of Entity 1.1 and Sagatuns mono that I've gained.
Thank you Hermann for your review, much appreciated :-)
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Re: Hermanns System

Post by Defender »

thank you Hermann - I certainly didnt expected that #3 was the NDS.
What you describe as strong points of Källa I certainly would subscribe too also.
But I also agree on the other points - all of them. I like your comparison to Entity and Sagatun and I even have to mention the Tundra - all show a synergetic effect into the right direction into an enjoyment, foot tapping mode. Källa is different in that regard.

It might be the case that hearing Källa through active speakers somehow compensates for what left you and me wishing for more in those areas.

The interesting part of it is that all 3 people who heard #003 described more or less the same impressions.
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Re: Hermanns System

Post by lejonklou »

Thank you Hermann!

Is there any possibility you can connect Källa as in the recommended setup?
https://www.lejonklou.com/tips/recommended-setup/

I am confident that will change the outcome completely.
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Re: Hermanns System

Post by Hermann »

Thank you for liking it.

Reconnection is certainly possible. Currently, Källa and NDS are fed from a separate fuse. The analog section as well. Analog and digital are separated. The power strips offer only 5 outlets each, so the LP12 section is taken out. Easy to realize.

Nevertheless, more tests will follow tomorrow. Källa is curently on a glass plate, which I will exchange for one made of wood.

Still playing the old Linn Silver between Sagtuns Mono and Tundra Stereo, as well as Källa to the preamplifier. This will be exchange against the newer.

Furthermore, the streamer is raised to a higher level (Mana terminology). That is, he is now on phase 7 (6 soundstages on top of each other, plus rack) and will be lifted to phase 11. However, this is not intended for comparison, as the NDS cannot be operated this way. However, this could improve the performance of the Källa.

I link a picture, which clarifies the levels of a mana setup.

https://www.audiodoo.de/uploads/tx_pnma ... Naim_1.jpg


When everything is completed, I'll post pictures or a small video of my system.
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Re: Hermanns System

Post by matthias »

Defender wrote: 2021-12-02 11:10 The interesting part of it is that all 3 people who heard #003 described more or less the same impressions.
Is it possible that this one behaves differently to other Källas?
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Re: Hermanns System

Post by lejonklou »

There are two parts of the recommended setup: Mains power and Local network.

Källa needs to be powered from the same strip as the analogue HiFi components. That is not a question of small differences but an absolute necessity due to how the grounding works. I prefer Sagatun first, then Källa, other sources, and last Tundra. Daisy chaining the power strips works fine.

As Pierre noted and wrote about in the Källa section of the forum, the local network also has a profound effect on Källa. This is because Protokoll has a very precise timing in how it delivers the data. Any extra or alternative steps in between the Router/WiFi Access Point and Källa, other than a GS-108T switch, can alter that timing and this affects the musical performance.

If the Router/WiFi Access Point is so far away that direct cabling isn't possible and techniques like ethernet over mains (homeplugs) or WiFi-to-Ethernet is used, those devices must be evaluated by ear. Some are just terrible musically.
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Re: Hermanns System

Post by lejonklou »

I also wonder whether Källa has been set to fixed IP. This is not necessary for functionality, but provides a big boost to its musical performance.

These three parameters - mains power, network connection and fixed IP - will make a far bigger difference than the shelf material or the interconnects.
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Re: Hermanns System

Post by Hermann »

Thanks for the tips Fredrik. Perhaps I should mention that the two power strips share the same ground wire, 10qmm looped through from the first to the second. The ground wire is directly connected in the house junction box to a 25qmm ground wire that goes to the actual house ground.

Källa has a fixed IP addres as recommened.

Regarding network, I kept it simple.
WIFI router (mesh) -> repeater -> repeater => Källa and NDS.

I think with these devices I am well positioned. I have nothing to complain about the Perfomance of the Streamer over WLAN to Ethernet, but also know no other setups. The benchmark is the LP12, to which the streaming is adapted in some way. I will gladly concede that other network components could sound better. I do not have the possibilities to test this.

Another change will come with the location of the server, which will again be placed one floor higher. Streamer directly into the repeater, the second output for the NAS. So the path of the music signal from the NAS will be significantly shortened.
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Re: Hermanns System

Post by lejonklou »

A shared ground wire but separated live and neutral can be even worse. All three need to be sourced from the same strip (or several daisy chained strips) as the HiFi system.

I have a repeater in my apartment and it's not good at all to route Källa through it. I haven't spent any time comparing repeaters by ear as I have instead a 10 m long ethernet cable directly from the WiFi router to Källa. It's a night and day difference compared to plugging in into the repeater. It's likely your Naim streamer is affected differently than Källa by this, as the paths in which they receive their data is not the same. If you have a mesh system, can't you have one station near the HiFi instead of using repeaters?

Good to hear that Källa is on fixed IP!

Although you have nothing to complain about, I am saying that you haven't yet heard what Källa is capable of.
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Re: Hermanns System

Post by Defender »

matthias wrote: 2021-12-02 12:24
Defender wrote: 2021-12-02 11:10 The interesting part of it is that all 3 people who heard #003 described more or less the same impressions.
Is it possible that this one behaves differently to other Källas?
I have no answer to that question but I was wondering about that too as the impression from 3 different people all describe the same things with different words in my opinion.
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Re: Hermanns System

Post by Hermann »

With regard to grounding, this does not appear to me from my experience. Naim is also very sensitive to incorrect or insufficient grounding. It should be possible for me to lay an additional ground wire to the second power strip to evaluate this.

The second repeater is directly connected to the system. They are WLAN repeaters, which work in Dasy chain. Even if the 1st repeater of the chain is switched off, the remaining one receives data. No difference can be heard in the audio range. Since the 1st repeater also serves other devices, my approach is to connect the server directly to the 2nd repaeter.

I hope the changes show this. Tomorrow more examples.
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Re: Hermanns System

Post by Spannko »

After listening to the 3 clips a few days ago through my iPad speakers my initial impression was that 1 was a musical mess. The bass sounded all over the place and I didn’t get the impression that I was listening to well rehearsed musicians. 2 sounded much more musical with a better sense of timing and pitch differentiation, particularly in the bass. 3 sounded more musical than 1 too but not quite as good as 2. For me, 1 was just bad, 3 acceptable and 2 was pleasantly musical.

I try not to read other peoples impressions before I listen myself, so before posting my own impression I had a look at what other people thought. From memory, I think everyone totally disagreed with me, preferring my choices in reverse order, including Fredrik! So as not to appear a total numpty I decided to hold back on posting my impression until after I had the opportunity to hear the clips again though headphones.

I listened again through my Grado 125’s this morning (which incidentally are now fully run in and sound quite a bit better than my previous musical favourites, the Apple ear buds). Now I was able to hear what everyone liked about clip 1. Of the three clips it’s obviously the most impressive, but the more I listened, the more the musical errors began to let themselves known. Through the iPad speakers I could sense the poor musicality, but through the Grado’s the musicians all doing their own thing, unrelated to the others, was revealed in glorious detail. Even worse, the bass instrument was not only poorly timed, the pitch of the notes were all over the place. Clip 2 is clearly not as informative, but the band play well together. I could very easily imagine myself sitting in a cafe, sipping syrupy coffee listening to a band playing great music at the far side of the room. Clip 3 remained in between 1 and 2.

So my preference remains the same, not only with this set of clips, but with TOK’s and David Neel’s system, and reinforces by belief that Kalla delivers the first genuine step up in musical reproduction since the Linn Lingo/Ekos/Troika era 30 years ago!
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Re: Hermanns System

Post by lejonklou »

Defender wrote: 2021-12-02 13:56
matthias wrote: 2021-12-02 12:24
Defender wrote: 2021-12-02 11:10 The interesting part of it is that all 3 people who heard #003 described more or less the same impressions.
Is it possible that this one behaves differently to other Källas?
I have no answer to that question but I was wondering about that too as the impression from 3 different people all describe the same things with different words in my opinion.
Every Källa that leaves my lab behaves exactly the same. The fine tuning of each unit is such that each time I describe it in detail, people think I'm exaggerating.

The tuning process is also the reason why I can't ship more than a few units per week. But I find it far more fulfilling to have shipped fewer and perfectly tuned units than to have shipped many that don't perform optimally.

The recommended setup sketch is now included in each Källa box. It's essential that it's followed when it comes to mains power arrangement (no experiments necessary, just do it) and highly recommended when it comes to network layout (if no cabled ethernet is possible, good results can still be obtained but experiments are mandatory).
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Re: Hermanns System

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Hermann wrote: 2021-12-02 14:12 The second repeater is directly connected to the system. They are WLAN repeaters, which work in Dasy chain. Even if the 1st repeater of the chain is switched off, the remaining one receives data. No difference can be heard in the audio range. Since the 1st repeater also serves other devices, my approach is to connect the server directly to the 2nd repaeter.
Just a thought Hermann,
did you try to set both of your repeaters as pure wifi-to-ethernet adaptors, so that both receive only wifi and both do NOT send wifi?
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Re: Hermanns System

Post by ThomasOK »

Since Källa was designed for use with streaming services (it has been stated by Fredrik that the Källa is more musical playing a stream from Spotify than a 24/192 file off a NAS) and since it has also been clearly stated that there is a proper way to connect the unit for most musical perfromance, is it any surprise if it doesn't perform to the max when used in a way not intended and in a less than optimum setup?
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Re: Hermanns System

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ThomasOK wrote: 2021-12-02 17:48 Since Källa was designed for use with streaming services (it has been stated by Fredrik that the Källa is more musical playing a stream from Spotify than a 24/192 file off a NAS) and since it has also been clearly stated that there is a proper way to connect the unit for most musical perfromance, is it any surprise if it doesn't perform to the max when used in a way not intended and in a less than optimum setup?
Yes, this is my impression so far as well. If someone can not establish the recommended set-up it doesn't make sense to buy Källa.
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Re: Hermanns System

Post by Spannko »

lejonklou wrote: 2021-12-02 13:54 I have a repeater in my apartment and it's not good at all to route Källa through it. I haven't spent any time comparing repeaters by ear as I have instead a 10 m long ethernet cable directly from the WiFi router to Källa. It's a night and day difference compared to plugging in into the repeater.
So, in your case, you’re not using a GS108T? Is that correct?

For optimum Källa set up:

A) If a GS108T isn’t being used does the longer than recommended Ethernet cable into the Källa still need to be a bjc cat6a?

B) If a GS108T is being used, does the Ethernet cable from router to GS108T need to be a bjc cat6a?
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Re: Hermanns System

Post by ThomasOK »

My reading of the diagram that now comes with the Källa is that BJC CAT6a cables of 2.5M (8 foot) or longer are recommended to the Källa and to the GS108T when used (as it likely will be in most cases).
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Re: Hermanns System

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ThomasOK wrote: 2021-12-02 18:30 My reading of the diagram that now comes with the Källa is that BJC CAT6a cables of 2.5M (8 foot) or longer are recommended to the Källa and to the GS108T when used (as it likely will be in most cases).
BJC not mentioned here:

https://www.lejonklou.com/tips/recommended-setup/
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Re: Hermanns System

Post by Spannko »

matthias wrote: 2021-12-02 18:39
ThomasOK wrote: 2021-12-02 18:30 My reading of the diagram that now comes with the Källa is that BJC CAT6a cables of 2.5M (8 foot) or longer are recommended to the Källa and to the GS108T when used (as it likely will be in most cases).
BJC not mentioned here:

https://www.lejonklou.com/tips/recommended-setup/
You’ve beaten me to it! I was going to say the same.
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Re: Hermanns System

Post by matthias »

Spannko wrote: 2021-12-02 18:49 You’ve beaten me to it! I was going to say the same.
Ha,
also very curious if Fredrik uses the switch or not.......
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Re: Hermanns System

Post by lejonklou »

matthias wrote: 2021-12-02 18:02 Yes, this is my impression so far as well. If someone can not establish the recommended set-up it doesn't make sense to buy Källa.
Nonsense. I have a different setup than the recommended at my lab and it sounds better than any streamer I've heard there.

Here's an idea: Why don't you listen to it yourself instead of drawing conclusions from what people are writing on the internet?
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Re: Hermanns System

Post by lejonklou »

Spannko wrote: 2021-12-02 18:08 So, in your case, you’re not using a GS108T? Is that correct?

For optimum Källa set up:

A) If a GS108T isn’t being used does the longer than recommended Ethernet cable into the Källa still need to be a bjc cat6a?

B) If a GS108T is being used, does the Ethernet cable from router to GS108T need to be a bjc cat6a?
I do use a GS-108T switch at home because it sounds better that way.

I don't use any Blue Jeans cables because I have old ones that I think are better. If I could buy those cables today, I would supply them with each Källa. But I can't.

I have been testing a bunch of inexpensive ethernet cables that I've bought from various sources. So far I haven't found anything great. Blue Jeans cat 6a is for now the best you can buy.

But then there was that rather expensive one that we heard clips of in here. Which brand was it? It seemed very promising, but I still haven't heard it in real life. And this is the reason I don't state Blue Jeans cat 6a on the recommended setup sketch - I don't think we've found the best cable yet.
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Re: Hermanns System

Post by matthias »

lejonklou wrote: 2021-12-02 19:19 I have a different setup than the recommended at my lab and it sounds better than any streamer I've heard there.
Here's an idea: Why don't you listen to it yourself instead of drawing conclusions from what people are writing on the internet?
Fredrik,
what is your setup at the lab?
AFAIK, when Källa was not superior the culprit was always the set-up.......here on the forum.

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