Hermanns System

[lejonklou]

I'm ordering a pick-up of Hermann's Sagatun Mono for a return to my lab. I believe I know what the problem is.

I have only done a handful of Sagatun 1.7 upgrades so far. The procedure consists of several details, such as changes to the power supplies (which take a long time to break in), new screws and cable clips and a new chassis ground. Those are all well tested and proven over time.

There is one detail in how the upgrade is made, however, that I realized differs from how it was done in the original assembly in Estonia a decade ago: The torque of the pillars below the main board. This could seem like a trivial detail, but in fact it's quite important.

The pillars can be tightened from the outside or from the inside. This results in two different torques, although the setting on the tool is the same. The original value of 0.6 Nm + 3 steps, established almost exactly ten years ago, was done from the outside. This results in a lower torque on the pillars. When I made the first few 1.7 upgrades, I tightened the pillars from the inside during reassembly. This results in a higher torque on the pillars.

When I, thanks to Hermann's sharing of his initial impressions, realized I had reassembled in a different way, I compared the two settings by ear. And in fact they both have something good musically, so I went back and forth a couple of times before I settled on the original torque (from the outside, which is lower). I also tried various torques in between the two, but found them all uninspiring. So apparently I had hit two peaks in musical performance; one the original value and one higher up, which gives more precision and detail, but which I also feel gets a little tiresome after a while. I prefer the flow and grace of the original torque.

I know exactly which Sagatun's I've torqued the original way and which I've torqued the new way, so rest assured I'm going to clear this up (yours are done the original way, Sopper). But let's wait to hear what Hermann's got to say when I've adjusted his pair. The electronic components should be well run in by the time he gets them back and have had a good listen.

I can't overstate how thankful I am to have customers with such sensitive ears and high expectations. You continue to raise the bar for everyone's benefit. Thanks in particular to Hermann, for sharing his intense experiences and doubts with me.

[lejonklou]

Nota bene: This could all be due to something entirely different being wrong with Hermann’s SM.

But from Hermann’s detailed descriptions, his highly sensitive Isobarik-on-Mana system and my own listening tests, I strongly suspect the higher torque below the main board.

[Sopper]

Thanks for clearing that up Fredrik
I’m still amazed such tiny details can have such impact and can heard.

[Hermann]

After some very interesting experiences, the system works to our complete satisfaction. What happened? The upgrade came with a torque setting that left us speechless. The impressions are described above and remain. Only a tonal exaggeration in our room overshadowed the enjoyment during the warm-up period. My assumption that the reason was the upgrade itself turned out to be a fallacy, as the cause was a change in the torque of the screws on the boards that are accessible underneath the cases. Fredrik recommended a different setting. At the time, I was very skeptical that such a change could achieve its goal. Still, he was right.

It is fascinating how sensitive such a closed and perfectly developed device leaves a completely different listening impression by changing a few screws. The recommended torque of the sixteen screws was the solution and once again left me listening in amazement. Not only that, the system is now sensitive enough that I could find the optimal point myself. To do this, the screws on both devices would have to be adjusted under signal, the LP12 would have to be removed for a short time and some of the plugs would have to be moved, which I try to avoid in my setup. Therefore, this is currently not an issue. Strictly speaking, we are now listening to the upgrade for the first time without any annoying overshadowing and, much to our delight, it turned out to be a good 12 hour session yesterday.

Maybe one more thing about this upgrade. It takes a long time to play in. It also takes some time after power off and on, in my case about 2 hours, until the preamplifier finds the peace again to play music to our liking.

Will there be another recording in this regard? No, because just as the difference between AVM and Amplifi router could not be heard in the recording, it will not be heard in further recordings here either. I don't know the reason. But maybe another user will find better ways to show this, which would make me very happy.

I rate the upgrade very high and would have to expand the previously posted scale, because this is above the upgrade Kandid » Ekstatic or AVM » Amplifi Router. I had expressed my concerns to Fredrik about the enormous transparency and feared that it would veer too analytically. Since the advantages of the upgrade were just overshadowed, the concerns were put aside, because this enables the connection to the musical microcosm mentioned above, which makes up a large part of the upgrade. It's a piece of synergy with the Tundra Monos 3.0, which represents the most important step towards musical fulfillment.

Once again, my thanks go to Fredrik and Marco from Hexagon Audio, as they looked together for solutions, which have now been found.

[Tony Tune-age]

That's good news Hermann, the mystery is solved...congratulations! I've learned how important torque values really are in audio components. From cartridges to tonearms, preamps to speakers, and everything in between they do make a noticeable difference! Some people have a hard time processing the concept, until they can hear for themselves.

Cheers!

[Hermann]

Thanks Tony

It became clear to me while working on the LP12 many years ago and still on the speaker drivers that torque settings significantly improve the sound. But what surprises me is how subtle such a small change in torque appears. Obviously, these changes are better heard when the music system itself is already playing at a higher level.

I am sure that knowledge about music will expand significantly in the coming days.

Have fun

[springwood64]

Thanks for sharing your experience Hermann, and great to hear that you and Fredrik were able to get direct to the root cause.

[ThomasOK]

Thanks for the comprehensive reports. Glad everything is sorted out. I know how hard Fredrik worked to sort this all out and the dedication really shows.

[Hermann]

Thanks everyone for the comments.

I'll admit, I was skeptical about his advice. If my system doesn't play in the right way, my emotions don't play along either or swing to the other side when it sounds perfect. Fredrik did an excellent job, on the one hand with the upgrade, but also in responding to my specific needs. It is astonishing and deserves respect how accurately his tip solved the problem.

Regarding your Linn Silver cable test Tom, I hope I don't have to worry too much about my Linn Silver.

[Hermann]

Wow, more than 500,000 hits in three years challenge me. Not only does it reflect on the musical journey, the general conditions also play an important role in even thinking these thoughts. Almost exactly forty years ago I joined a company that was significantly involved in the development of the Internet and at the time had the opportunity to get in touch with completely unknown people on the other side of the world. Not nearly as convenient as the World Wide Web, a technology developed at CERN and released to the public in 1993. Some may be familiar with terms such as mailbox system or Usenet. Many technical requirements were necessary to establish these contacts. And how has the internet changed? There is hardly a topic that is not discussed, picked apart in detail, dissected, confirmed, rejected or adopted. Thematic focus developed many spaces of exchange and initially it was mainly Naim and Linn who created standards in the understanding of musical reproduction. I was lucky enough to accompany music productions for a long time in the 80s and afterwards I became very aware of the background to the selection of equipment. I generally ignored mainstream opinions or rating systems of magazines because these experiences made me realize that neither point systems nor different criteria used by magazine writers were helpful in assessing one's own standards.

Long before that I had swapped the Thorens TD 126 for an LP12, Accuphase electronics for Naim and self-built speakers for Dayton Wright electrostats. For me, the deep insight into musical processes was much more important than any opinion of audience-appealing description. Believe your ears said my spy brother-in-law at that time. As a producer, he was aware of this and my intuition was confirmed.

But enough of the excursion. The question arises as to how future impressions of improvements can be adequately put into words. Especially since the impressions can trigger highly emotional reactions. Music lovers will be able to understand this if something doesn't sound right or if the goal of all wishes has been achieved. The range is large, in my opinion significantly too large. For a long time I was not interested in innovation; I was satisfied with Naim and Linn at every stage of development. Actually. Otherwise would I have brought about changes or, as I recently did, made what I consider to be a radical cut? Certainly not.

The last and most important expansion stages are thanks to this forum and the operator Fredrik, the tireless examination of musical structures and how they can be reproduced as close to the action as possible. Without this forum and its users, only the LP12 would have been built, but not the electronics.

But also a dealer like Marco from Hexagon Audio. He has currently provided me with a Boazu, for which I am very grateful. Because he will compete against 72/140, who are currently on the way back from recapping. Examples will follow.

Thank you for your interest in my comments, which could never have been written if it weren't for a music lover who shares passions and brings people of the same mind together.

[Hermann]

Another decision is pending. Rather small, but no less important for my second system. Naim NAC72/140 fresh from service after over 25 years against a Boazu. The 72/140 has now had over 50 hours of break-in time, which should be enough to carry out the test. A Linn DS serves as the source. The connection on the one hand is Linn Black and the 72 is a long-used Noname cable, which sounds significantly better than Naim's original DIN to RCA. The speakers are Linn Keilidh, whose crossover was equipped with Dayton Audio Caps weeks ago. Connection to them split K400 with Deltron Bananas.

My thanks first and foremost go to Marco from Hexagon Audio, who once again easily arranged to carry out this test with a decent streamer.

Herbie Mann - Memphis Underground

A1. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1kJRjJ5 ... sp=sharing

Take five

A2. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tJLfOd ... sp=sharing

Kari

A3. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NoIIbP ... sp=sharing


Herbie Mann - Memphis Underground

B1. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1msHMKj ... sp=sharing

Take five

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wvaHWX ... sp=sharing

Kari

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gvlE6K ... sp=sharing

Have fun

[springwood64]

The As and the Bs all seem to have the same file names - is that right?

Eg Both Herbie Mann files are called '240327-000.wav'

[Hermann]

That's correct, they were saved in different folders in the recording device. They now don't have to be downloaded, but can be played directly in the browser. However, if it's irritating, I'll rename it.

[springwood64]

Interesting. They all "sound" the same. I could not describe any difference. And they sound great.

However, I react consistently and almost immediately to the 'A's, and want the music to continue, but I don't feel the same way for the 'B's.

So it's 'A' for me, for all 3 tracks.

(Listened via headphones in a browser on my PC).

I'll have another listen later on Källa.

[springwood64]

Listening again through Källa, I find the comparison much harder. The difference in engagement I heard on my PC has disappeared. Both tracks sound equally engaging.

[Tendaberry]

I just listened to the Herbie Mann track and prefer "B", it has more "spring in its step".

[Spannko]

For me, A is a fairly uncomfortable listen to the extent that I feel quite agitated and restless. It suffers in both rhythm and tune departments. B seems to be completely different. It’s harmonious and restful.

[Charlie1]

A. makes a bit more sense to my mind.

[David Neel]

I've only listened to two tracks, off my iphone earphones. I liked Kari on A, but some of the backing became confused. On B, there was more expression in her voice, and the band were more coherent. With Take 5, Paul Desmond's sax sounded more natural on B, it was quite harsh/unnatural on A. On both tracks A had more impetus, B was more relaxed, and I suspect that I would prefer B in the long run. I have a long history of getting clips wrong (will my face be red again?!) but B felt much like the Boazu I borrowed last year.

[Whatsmynaim]

Herbie Mann - Memphis Underground. They're musically close but A wins.
Take five. A is the winner.
Kari. A wins here too.

In all examples A is livelier and more enjoyable than B.

[lejonklou]

I only listened to Kari but on that one I preferred A.

[tokenbrit]

A quick couple of listens to Take Five suggested that A2 is better than 'B2' - there's not a lot in the individual elements: B pushes the sax forward but, more importantly, doesn't bring the musical elements together as well as A.

[Hermann]

Thank you for your comments.

Once again an interesting result, as we clearly have a preference for the Boazu (Bx.). It's not the musicality or differences therein, but the totality of musical impressions. Without question, Naim has been a musical benchmark for me for almost fifty years, replaced some time ago by Fredrik's amplifiers in the main setup.

72/140's service does not improve this musicality, but rather clarifies the connections between musicians and notes. This may also be viewed as improved musicality. And yet this is not the reason that motivates us to prefer the Boazu. The entirety of the presentation, the way in which notes connect one another, how relationships spin and wind as red threads through a composition or demand direct guidance, are impressions of the Boazu, which is diametrically opposed to the slightly rough presence of the Naim team and through a rather flat spatial reproduction is supported.

Also interesting because the result of the comparison between NAC 552 and Sagatun Monos reverses the impression. The 552 offered a more relaxing impression, the SMs a more direct access to the music, which is not to be equated with rough presentation, but rather with the ability to record sound worlds faster and more intensively.

In the small setup we attribute this ability to the Boazu. It offers difficult subtleties that we miss at Naim.

As soon as the setup (Boazu) was operated with a 1MII BT streamer, there was an immediate comparison to the main system and my wife said that it was really good. However, the quality of the small streamer was by no means enough to get the most out of the setup. Luckily, Marco from Hexagon Audio offered to send a Linn DS streamer, which we are very, very grateful for. But also for the possibility of being able to carry out this test at all.

The Linn DS only showed the differences clearly. By the way, we are very surprised by the musical impression of the Linn Streamer. Despite a heating failure (stupid fuzzy logic from somewhere in the 90s) with a room temperature of 13°, we relaxed with music for hours!

My wife only heard the Naim team sporadically after service and break-in time. Their decision in favor of Boazu then became apparent in the comparisons of the recorded pieces. She wasn't present during the recording, so she heard the comparisons further back in the office (JBL308) and hit the Boazu every time on the first pass of the three pieces. Astonishing. And she responded to the astonishment with: “When it plays, I want to dance. As simple as that."

The 72/140 plays at a high musical level, without question. But even in this region, differences are due to personal preferences when making decisions. The future owner of this combo will surely be happy.

This ends my almost 50-year Naim era. Is it easy for me? Yes and no, because the last remaining nostalgia is now finally disappearing and yet beautiful memories remain.

[springwood64]

Very interesting Hermann, thanks for sharing

[matthias]

Once again an interesting result, as we clearly have a preference for the Boazu (Bx.).

Yes, interesting the difference between the in room experience (B) and the clips A:B = 5:3