Pete's System

[tokenbrit]

Has anyone experimented with room treatments to improve their system?

At the weekend I serendipitously found myself with spare rockwool insulation and two 75cm x 100cm unwanted picture canvases.

It took about 5 minutes to stuff the frames with 5cm thick rockwool and place them behind the speakers to hear the effect.

My back wall is 9mm plasterboard with a 50mm gap in front of mineral wool insulation, and I was fully expecting to hear no significant difference from adding the panels:

without: https://photos.app.goo.gl/BkH1qbjyTkfQ6KtS8

with: https://photos.app.goo.gl/g3LzTNbFB2jFL33v9

Cat obviously prefers without :)

Wonder what one panel, behind the tv, would sound like in comparison - as long as the curiosity doesn't jeopardise your feline friend's wellbeing ;)

[beck]

Your search for better sound should start by removing the TV and securing the speakers are standing firmly (not rocking). Then you can go on with room treatment and more………..

But as you are finding out: everything matters! :-)

[springwood64]

Your search for better sound should start by [....] securing the speakers are standing firmly (not rocking).

Ah yes I wondered about that. I'm not sure how to achieve that, at least without irreversible changes.

As for the TV .... I think I'd face a family insurrection if I tried that!

[springwood64]

Wonder what one panel, behind the tv, would sound like in comparison - as long as the curiosity doesn't jeopardise your feline friend's wellbeing ;)

Ooh I'll try that

[springwood64]

But as you are finding out: everything matters! :-)

Everything matters in large amounts ;)

I'm impressed by the impact of some apparently small changes. The brass washers blow my mind.

[lejonklou]

I prefer without.

And as I've likely said before: Such a stylish and cozy room!

[Charlie1]

I prefer 'without' too. I suppose you could try re-positioning the speakers with the room treatment, but personally I couldn't be bothered based on these clips - not enough potential to get me interested.

Agree with beck that you need to get the speakers optimised in their current position first. Can't believe I'm giving advise like this when I have not always bothered myself :) Although I have got my Katans (on katan stands and skeets) very stable on carpet now - once they bedded in I just had to tweak 1 or 2 feet only slightly - came back to it a few evenings and now they are much more solid.

Can you mount the TV on the wall? Covering with a thick blanket should also improve music listening - certainly works for the radiator in my office.

Sounding really good though. I would like a pair of Espeks based on your recent clips but think they would easily overload my room.

I still get a weird discrepancy between left and right channel on your recordings. I now recall trying our iPhone 15 in stereo mode and think I had a similar effect, probably caused by the mics being different height on each side of the phone. Not an issue but think it was mentioned in the playground thread. Maybe this is caused by something else though.

[Spannko]

Sorry Pete, I really don’t like the effect of the sound absorbers. They reduce your lovely musical system to a pretty boring audiophile system.

The sort of damping you’re using works very non linearly. Off the top of my head, 50mm rockwool will absorb nearly all frequencies above approx 1000Hz and very little below approx 500Hz. This changes the musics harmonic structure which alters the systems perceived tune playing ability.

I’ve found that sound absorbers usually have a detrimental effect, to the extent that my diy loudspeaker sounds much more musical without any internal sound absorption filling of any kind.

[springwood64]

Thanks everyone for your help and kind comments.

My wife and cat also prefer without!

I wasn't sure, but I think as Spannko observes, this is a case of being distracted by the sound away from the tune. Normally I am happy to listen to the music anywhere in the room, but with the panels in place I find myself sitting in the centre and listening to parts rather than the whole.

I'll turn my focus to getting the speakers rock solid.

[beck]

Forgot to mention that I think your system sounds great without sound absorbers. Maybe you should just leave it as it is. :-)

[springwood64]

Forgot to mention that I think your system sounds great without sound absorbers. Maybe you should just leave it as it is. :-)

Thanks!

The speakers are not immobile, but they are as solid as I can make them without removing the carpet. I tried removing the skeets, but this did not make them less liable to move, and sounded a bit worse.

The floor itself is not very solid - when I stand close to the speakers I can see the level changing, so I don't think there is much to be gained from further adjustment.

[Tony Tune-age]

Forgot to mention that I think your system sounds great without sound absorbers. Maybe you should just leave it as it is. :-)

Thanks!

The speakers are not immobile, but they are as solid as I can make them without removing the carpet. I tried removing the skeets, but this did not make them less liable to move, and sounded a bit worse.

The floor itself is not very solid - when I stand close to the speakers I can see the level changing, so I don't think there is much to be gained from further adjustment.

It sounds like you're doing the best you can, with what you have...

[springwood64]

Can you mount the TV on the wall? Covering with a thick blanket should also improve music listening - certainly works for the radiator in my office.

I have found in the past that throwing a rug over the TV improves things a little. I have also wondered about wall-mounting the TV.

Sounding really good though. I would like a pair of Espeks based on your recent clips but think they would easily overload my room.

Thanks! From my experiments with the bases, it seems that getting them sorted is essential to get the best out of these speakers. They are also very sensitive to placement, and the bass can easily get out of control. When they are tuned however, the bass provides a lovely tuneful foundation to the music, quite capable of shaking the house!

I still get a weird discrepancy between left and right channel on your recordings. I now recall trying our iPhone 15 in stereo mode and think I had a similar effect, probably caused by the mics being different height on each side of the phone. Not an issue but think it was mentioned in the playground thread. Maybe this is caused by something else though.

I've had a look at the mic positions and they are not too dissimilar. I now remember to avoid covering them with my fingers so I'm not sure what the cause is. It does make the comparisons harder (for me anyway).

[springwood64]

It sounds like you're doing the best you can, with what you have...

Yes. I need to let go of my rather abstract desire to lock the speakers in place - they are still perfectly enjoyable despite a little bit of wobblyness.

[Charlie1]

I've had a look at the mic positions and they are not too dissimilar. I now remember to avoid covering them with my fingers so I'm not sure what the cause is. It does make the comparisons harder (for me anyway).

Fair enough. I was trying out stereo on an iPhone 15 so perhaps it's caused by something else.

[ThomasOK]

I definitely prefer without, which sounds quite good. With seems to lose a lot. This does not particularly surprise me as I generally recommend avoiding room treatments in home settings. A problem is that they will almost always only absorb some frequencies and not others so they can tend to mess things up.

In the store I used to work in we did use some but only because our largest studio sounded like a racquetball court without them. So it had a combination of absorbers and diffusors to tame things. When Fredrik walked in the room and saw them he said "I don't like those!". I informed him that neither did we but that they were necessary for that particular room. (We used a few absorbers in the two smaller rooms but fairly minimal.) By the end of the evening he was quite happy with the sound his equipment made in that room. But in normal household circumstances I find they are best avoided. If things are too live more natural furnishings like rugs and tapestries are usually a better idea.

[springwood64]

Some time ago I noticed that the K400 'jumpers' I was using in addition to the connecting plates to connect the three pairs of passive drive inputs on my Espeks were fraying. I removed them for inspection and they pretty well fell apart.

I replaced the plates without the K400 and it was immediately apparent that I had lost a little bit of the magic of the system.

I decided to construct a better solution to address the following deficiencies in my K400 connectors:

• My K400 lengths connected the + and - passive inputs of the treble, mid and bass only. They did not connect the crossovers to the drivers. I still relied on the plates for that.
• Using continuous lengths of K400 for these connectors while connecting the speaker cable to the mid meant that the cable direction of Mid > Bass was the reverse of Mid > treble
• Relying on twisting the cables was not enough to prevent stray fibres from separating under pressure from the screw-on nuts, risking the cables falling apart or even shorts.

I created 14 individual 5cm lengths of K400, paying careful attention to cable direction and marking each 'jumper' with the direction to signal source.

For each speaker, 3 jumper cables are needed to connect the bass, mid and treble crossovers to the direct speaker inputs. Cable direction treats the crossover as the source.

To connect the passive inputs, 4 jumpers are needed: Mid > Bass + and - and Mid > Treble + and -. Cable direction treats the Mid input as source.

I soldered each end of the crossover jumpers on top of an M8 brass washer, so that the K400 will be compressed between the washer and the connector nut. The jumpers are curved like an 'S' so that the cable follows the clockwise direction of the compressing nut.

For the passive input jumpers, two cables are soldered on top of the single Mid input washer in a opposing 'S' shape - like '§', with a washer on each end.

Last night I completed and fitted these connectors and was able to entirely remove the connecting plate.

Result: more magic!

Once the jumpers have burned in I'll do recordings to compare connector plates vs my jumpers.

Thanks Fredrik for the solder. Next task is to replace the bent or fatigued Knekt plugs on my speaker cables.

IMG_20240213_124623059_MFNR.jpg

IMG_20240213_124723960_MFNR~2.jpg

[Charlie1]

Nice work and a great result!

[Spannko]

Since you can solder, have you thought about soldering links directly on the crossover board inside the speaker?

[springwood64]

Since you can solder, have you thought about soldering links directly on the crossover board inside the speaker?

Hmm. Good question. That hadn't occurred to me. Thanks for the suggestion - I'll take a look at it.

[springwood64]

A few weeks ago I resoldered the knekt banana plugs on half of my K400 speaker cables, using Fredrik's solder and recommended temperature. I also replaced 3 of the plugs.

In a few months time I'll post comparison clips, allowing a good burn in.

However in the room I'm delighted with the improvement, and rather surprised too, since the original plugs were terminated by a local dealer about 12 years ago.

[springwood64]

Another change to my system: I have replaced my Kinki 3 with a Slipsik 7.1

This is a great upgrade for my Axis, and I've been playing LPs since it arrived. Initially I was playing discs to help burn in the Slipsik, but now it's so enjoyable I just keep putting more discs on.

In a month or so, the valiant Axis will be robbed of its Akito arm, boxed up, and replaced by an LP12 (with Lingo 1 and Karousel), built by Peter Swain of Cymbiosis. I'm also looking forward to the return of an LP12 to my home after an absence of 15 years.

[Tendaberry]

In a month or so, the valiant Axis will be robbed of its Akito arm, boxed up, and replaced by an LP12 (with Lingo 1 and Karousel), built by Peter Swain of Cymbiosis. I'm also looking forward to the return of an LP12 to my home after an absence of 15 years.

That sounds like a very nice upgrade :-)

[ThomasOK]

I'm sure that upgrade will make you very happy. Along with the Slipsik 7.1 that is quite an improvement to the analog front end. Have fun.