It really ties the room together

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Lego
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Re: It really ties the room together

Post by Lego »

Lego wrote: 2021-09-22 15:43 Any chance of comparative clips ,I really find it hard to make a judgement from one point of reference

Tell you what how about putting up a clip of Billy Holliday's SFOA as you already have that up here
I know that tune
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Re: It really ties the room together

Post by tokenbrit »

markiteight wrote: 2021-09-25 03:02 ...
I'm currently listening to 10,000 Maniac's MTV Unplugged via HAKAI. It's never really been an album I've connected with or felt engaged by.

I'm fully engaged. And I feel a connection to the music and musicians I've not experienced with this album.

Apparently the angsty teenagers are in a good mood tonight.
Well, if the teenagers are behaving themselves, maybe you don't need any help with them. Glad to hear that your Hakai is doing its digital thing :)
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Re: It really ties the room together

Post by ThomasOK »

Lots of stuff on here. First off I no longer own my JBL 3677s as I recently sold them, and a couple weeks later my custom grills, to a local customer who loves them. They had been sitting in boxes for over a year and I really didn't have a use for them. There are still at least a few people on the forum who use them but some of them don't post very often. Had I not come upon the Quads available locally at a good price and took a flier on them (I did a Charlie1) I would likely still be using the 3677s (unless I had liked the 308P mk1s better - I never did the comparison).

As mentioned I did own a pair of 308P mk1 that I found quite musical as well, but I have also sold them to a gentleman in the UK who you can probably guess if you put 2 and 2 together. I already have more speakers than you can easily justify (3 pair of Isobariks, one with blown tweeters I bought cheap for spares, my beloved Quad ESLs and a pair of rebuilt and upgraded Meridian M3s which are connected to my TV/analog Majik DSM system). There is no point in putting a small system in my kitchen as it opens to the living room and will never compete with the musicality from the next room. There will never be speakers in my meditation room and my clock radio is all that makes sense in my bedroom. So the speakers I have more than cover the rest except as noted below. I had been using the 308Ps on my desktop computer but they really took up too much space, weren't exactly optimally placed less than a foot from the ceiling and were rarely used. So after the interest appeared here I decided to let them go to a better home. Now my problem is that I need to replace them as the speaker in the MacPro sounds awful after having two decent pair of speakers up there (the M3s did duty there before I set up the TV system in the guest bedroom/office). So I have to find a relatively cheap but good sounding powered speaker for that position. Having looked at what we sell here and what is available on the market I am thinking it is quite likely I will end up with a pair of JBL 305 mk1s! What can I say?

Does the Kikkin sound like a Sagatun? Yes and no. It sounds like a Lejonklou which should tell you most of what you need to know, but the Sagatun is obviously much better. However, the Kikkin 2.2, which sold for a bit under $1600, was easily more musical than an Akurate Kontrol when I compared them back in the day, but not up to a Klimax Kontrol. MI8, if you really want your minimalist system, I have a new in the box Kikkin 2.2! I really don't need to keep a Lejonklou museum running so I'd be glad to part with it for substantially less than retail. I do also have Sagatun 1.4 demo with only a couple hundred hours on it that I could send you if you are seriously interested and are willing to cover the shipping both ways. Be careful what you ask for!
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Re: It really ties the room together

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ThomasOK wrote: 2021-09-25 15:58 .. [a] Sagatun 1.4 demo with only a couple hundred hours on it that I could send you if you are seriously interested... Be careful what you ask for!
Now you're talking business (class ;) - no swapping cables & LP12 on the switched single-source input. Careful what you ask for indeed! :) / or what he didn't ask for such as my unsolicited advice :/
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Re: It really ties the room together

Post by markiteight »

Lego wrote: 2021-09-25 13:08 Tell you what how about putting up a clip of Billy Holliday's SFOA as you already have that up here
Oh wow...I completely forgot about that. I need to finish the completely unsorted vs. completely (well...almost) sorted comparison before (if!) the Zus go. Thank you for reminding me, Lego! I can then do a followup clip with the JBLs. That should be an interesting progression.

I just realized I don't think I've listened to that album since I made that clip, so I'll be hearing the differences for the first time too.
tokenbrit wrote: 2021-09-25 14:28 Well, if the teenagers are behaving themselves, maybe you don't need any help with them. Glad to hear that your Hakai is doing its digital thing :)
I still can't thank you enough for all your efforts getting my HAKAI working. It hasn't had a single issue or hiccup since I got it back. I sing your praises every time I use it (NOT something anyone wants to hear...or see).
ThomasOK wrote: 2021-09-25 15:58 Now my problem is that I need to replace them as the speaker in the MacPro sounds awful after having two decent pair of speakers up there (the M3s did duty there before I set up the TV system in the guest bedroom/office).
If your MacPro sounds as bad as my new MacBook Pro, I feel your pain. My 13 year old 17" MBP finally gave up the ghost recently and I replaced it with a (new to me) 2020 16" MBP. The new computer plays a lot louder and has a lot more bass, but it is far less musical than the old computer, which was less musical than my newer iPad, which is less musical than my older iPad, which is less musical than my old iPhone. A colander carries water better than my new computer carries a tune.
ThomasOK wrote: 2021-09-25 15:58 Having looked at what we sell here and what is available on the market I am thinking it is quite likely I will end up with a pair of JBL 305 mk1s! What can I say?
I know what I can say: Serendipity. Earlier today I stumbled across a pair of 305P Mk1 for $150 on Facebook marketplace. Interested?
ThomasOK wrote: 2021-09-25 15:58 MI8, if you really want your minimalist system, I have a new in the box Kikkin 2.2! I really don't need to keep a Lejonklou museum running so I'd be glad to part with it for substantially less than retail.
Thank you, Thomas. That is a really fantastic, rare, and tempting offer! But I should clarify that when I mentioned the HAKAI/Kikkin/308P I was just observing that that combo may give the most music for the money. I didn't intend to imply that is a setup I aspire to. As much as I enjoy HAKAI (thanks again, tokenbrit!), I cherish my LP12. I'm pretty damn fortunate I had the opportunity to get a good one and I ain't giving it up (in fact...Thomas, I believe you are currently working on the Planar 25 that my LP12 replaced!) so I need more than one input. Swapping cables every time I want to change sources seems like too much of a faff.
ThomasOK wrote: 2021-09-25 15:58 I do also have Sagatun 1.4 demo with only a couple hundred hours on it that I could send you if you are seriously interested and are willing to cover the shipping both ways. Be careful what you ask for!
I'll let you know when I'm ready to give it a go. I have a sneaking suspicion that if I have it shipped out I won't be shipping it back!
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Re: It really ties the room together

Post by ThomasOK »

markiteight wrote: 2021-09-26 02:33
ThomasOK wrote: 2021-09-25 15:58 Having looked at what we sell here and what is available on the market I am thinking it is quite likely I will end up with a pair of JBL 305 mk1s! What can I say?
I know what I can say: Serendipity. Earlier today I stumbled across a pair of 305P Mk1 for $150 on Facebook marketplace. Interested?
I already have a pair coming in good condition. Thanks, anyway.
markiteight wrote: 2021-09-26 02:33
ThomasOK wrote: 2021-09-25 15:58 I do also have Sagatun 1.4 demo with only a couple hundred hours on it that I could send you if you are seriously interested and are willing to cover the shipping both ways. Be careful what you ask for!
I'll let you know when I'm ready to give it a go. I have a sneaking suspicion that if I have it shipped out I won't be shipping it back!
This has been known to happen. Even to reviewers!
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Re: It really ties the room together

Post by markiteight »

I updated the first post with an "after" clip, but here it is along with the "before" clip for your convenience:

Before:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/cjq90zt9pd3ce ... 3.m4v?dl=0

After:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vkpadxaregwis ... 1.MOV?dl=0

Another clip with the JBLs will be along shortly.
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Re: It really ties the room together

Post by beck »

Thank you for the clips markiteight. Really nice ones.

I like the before clip for it’s “sitting in the club listening to the band” feel.

The after clip to me has a slightly shifted focus with a “more perfected” sound.
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Re: It really ties the room together

Post by ThomasOK »

beck wrote: 2021-11-03 05:56 Thank you for the clips markiteight. Really nice ones.

I like the before clip for it’s “sitting in the club listening to the band” feel.

The after clip to me has a slightly shifted focus with a “more perfected” sound.
I've been away and I'm not sure what before and after are but I'm with beck in liking the before (first) clip better than the second one. Everything, especially the voice, has more feel to me in that clip.
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Re: It really ties the room together

Post by tokenbrit »

ThomasOK wrote: 2021-11-03 18:46
beck wrote: 2021-11-03 05:56 I like the before clip...
I've been away and I'm not sure what before and after are but I'm with beck...
I'm waiting for the JBLs...
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Re: It really ties the room together

Post by Tony Tune-age »

Both sound good, but I'm preferring the before music link...
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Re: It really ties the room together

Post by markiteight »

I'm really surprised, quite discuraged, and very puzzled by your choices. "Before" is the first clip I made when I initially set up the system over 2 years ago. Everything was arbitrarily dropped in place, hooked up, powered up, and the recording was made. No warmup, break-in, no setup, and before any tuning or optimization was made. The "After" clip was recorded two days ago, after over two years of tuning and tweaking and optimizing. Most of those changes were shared here, many of the decisions made with the guidance of the forum members, and all of them were agreed to be positive improvements. Yet...the result of all that optimization is worse?! Something is not right.

To make the "after" recording I had to remove the JBLs and bring the Klout/Omens back into the room, after having sat idle for over a month. They played for 2 hours before I recorded the clip. Maybe that wasn't enough. Zu says that when a new pair of speakers is delivered to a customer during cold weather it can take a couple weeks for the speakers to "warm up."

My original intention with this pair of clips was to demonstrate the cumulative effects of every change made to a system from the beginning to (almost) fully optimized. On this forum we have dozens (hundreds?) of clip pairs comparing differences after one change, but none highlighting differences after all the changes. I thought it would be fun to do just that, while trying to control as many variables as possible, but that plan apparently backfired!
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Re: It really ties the room together

Post by Tony Tune-age »

Good afternoon markiteight,

It's not always that easy for me to compare music links through a computer. Sometimes the music links can sound very similar, or even the same. Sometimes I can hear a definitive difference between the two links, however both links can still sound good. And that makes it hard for me to know for sure, which sounds best Although it could have something to do with my computer speakers and/or internet connection.

I would always prefer to listen and compare music links in person, instead of through a computer. For me it's easier and more fun listening in person.
markiteight wrote: 2021-11-03 19:51 I'm really surprised, quite discuraged, and very puzzled by your choices. "Before" is the first clip I made when I initially set up the system over 2 years ago. Everything was arbitrarily dropped in place, hooked up, powered up, and the recording was made. No warmup, break-in, no setup, and before any tuning or optimization was made. The "After" clip was recorded two days ago, after over two years of tuning and tweaking and optimizing. Most of those changes were shared here, many of the decisions made with the guidance of the forum members, and all of them were agreed to be positive improvements. Yet...the result of all that optimization is worse?! Something is not right.

To make the "after" recording I had to remove the JBLs and bring the Klout/Omens back into the room, after having sat idle for over a month. They played for 2 hours before I recorded the clip. Maybe that wasn't enough. Zu says that when a new pair of speakers is delivered to a customer during cold weather it can take a couple weeks for the speakers to "warm up."

My original intention with this pair of clips was to demonstrate the cumulative effects of every change made to a system from the beginning to (almost) fully optimized. On this forum we have dozens (hundreds?) of clip pairs comparing differences after one change, but none highlighting differences after all the changes. I thought it would be fun to do just that, while trying to control as many variables as possible, but that plan apparently backfired!
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Re: It really ties the room together

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markiteight wrote: 2021-11-03 19:51 To make the "after" recording I had to remove the JBLs and bring the Klout/Omens back into the room, after having sat idle for over a month. They played for 2 hours before I recorded the clip. Maybe that wasn't enough...
Many possible variables, from warm up to exact footing & position, to cable dressing, to stylus condition, to difficult to say after 2 years...

I recall a Linn dealer tell of a Linn HQ demo where it was easy to 'fool' the listeners into believing that each change was better when they'd passed the optimum setup a couple of changes previously. Not saying there was any intention there, or here, just that it isn't always easy or straightforward especially when listening to clips rather than in the room.

Don't forget: even Fredrik has said that he's taken a wrong turn or two and had to go back... If nothing else, there's value in assessing against a control and doing what you've done here: verifying that it really is better... Or not :/
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Re: It really ties the room together

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markiteight wrote: 2021-11-03 19:51 I'm really surprised, quite discuraged, and very puzzled by your choices. "Before" is the first clip I made when I initially set up the system over 2 years ago. Everything was arbitrarily dropped in place, hooked up, powered up, and the recording was made. No warmup, break-in, no setup, and before any tuning or optimization was made. The "After" clip was recorded two days ago, after over two years of tuning and tweaking and optimizing.
Huh! Now that's discouraging to say the least. I have to admit that I also prefer the Before clip.

The thing is that these cumulative gains could be erased by one thing being wrong. Like Jajo told recently that he found one top spike was loose beneath one of his 708p speakers. That really brought everything down from great to mediocre.
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Re: It really ties the room together

Post by tpetsch »

Little things in set-up can make a big difference, remember the A/B here with that cheap plastic IKEA plug strip? ...Well, I personally played with that strip a dozen different ways and each way sounded different but I found a plug grouping that suites my system well and I'm still using it, that crappy strip is surprisingly good FWIW. So it just may be that when you initially set up your system you got set-set lucky and pulled three 7's. I learned a long time ago that you make only one change at a time and and listen for a day or two and if you discover the change was less in tune you can easily revert back and try again, multiple change all at once can only complicate matters.
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Re: It really ties the room together

Post by beck »

Markiteight: our quest here is far more complex than could be imagined. The number of times I have been pointed in a different direction than I expected is substantial.

You have a great “before” clip. Use it as a guiding tool.

I use my Sondek clips as guidance and it has really helped me with my cd setup.
Playing cd’s…………
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Re: It really ties the room together

Post by Scooter62 »

After for me - Before sounds more like a modern “everybody send in their individual Protools track from around the world and we'll mix and master it” recording, where After sounds like everyone is together making music and contributing to a greater whole.
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Re: It really ties the room together

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markiteight wrote: 2021-11-03 19:51 I'm really surprised, quite discuraged, and very puzzled by your choices. "Before" is the first clip I made when I initially set up the system over 2 years ago. Everything was arbitrarily dropped in place, hooked up, powered up, and the recording was made. No warmup, break-in, no setup, and before any tuning or optimization was made. The "After" clip was recorded two days ago, after over two years of tuning and tweaking and optimizing. Most of those changes were shared here, many of the decisions made with the guidance of the forum members, and all of them were agreed to be positive improvements. Yet...the result of all that optimization is worse?! Something is not right.

To make the "after" recording I had to remove the JBLs and bring the Klout/Omens back into the room, after having sat idle for over a month. They played for 2 hours before I recorded the clip. Maybe that wasn't enough. Zu says that when a new pair of speakers is delivered to a customer during cold weather it can take a couple weeks for the speakers to "warm up."

My original intention with this pair of clips was to demonstrate the cumulative effects of every change made to a system from the beginning to (almost) fully optimized. On this forum we have dozens (hundreds?) of clip pairs comparing differences after one change, but none highlighting differences after all the changes. I thought it would be fun to do just that, while trying to control as many variables as possible, but that plan apparently backfired!
Which clip did you prefer ? From here the video appeared slightly wobbly on clip 2 ,maybe its the recording on your phone we're comparing
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Re: It really ties the room together

Post by beck »

I just realised that there is a big difference in the recording position in front of the system. I do not know why I did not react to this sooner!

Do not draw any conclusion until you have made a recording that has placed the speakers in the frame exactly the same way as in the before clip.

It can change the sound quite a lot depending on the room.............
Playing cd’s…………
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Re: It really ties the room together

Post by markiteight »

Thanks so much everyone for your feedback! I apologize for not responding sooner but I've been playing host to family visiting from Italy so I've been a bit preoccupied.
Tony Tune-age wrote: 2021-11-03 20:13 Good afternoon markiteight,

It's not always that easy for me to compare music links through a computer. Sometimes the music links can sound very similar, or even the same. Sometimes I can hear a definitive difference between the two links, however both links can still sound good. And that makes it hard for me to know for sure, which sounds best Although it could have something to do with my computer speakers and/or internet connection.
I've always appreciated recorded clips as an evaluation tool for this exact reason. I often have an easier time hearing musical differences when all hifi aspects have been removed. IMHO this is just my lack of experience.
Tony Tune-age wrote: 2021-11-03 20:13 I would always prefer to listen and compare music links in person, instead of through a computer. For me it's easier and more fun listening in person.
I have discovered that my new computer that replaced my 12 year old MacBook Pro last August is really bad for playing back comparison clips. Up to this point I thought it would always be possible to hear the musical differences between clips (after all, Fredrik has mentioned occasions where he's tuned a customer's system over the phone) regardless of the devices used for recording and playback, but this thing is hopeless!
tokenbrit wrote: 2021-11-03 20:32 Many possible variables, from warm up to exact footing & position, to cable dressing, to stylus condition, to difficult to say after 2 years...
Those variables are exactly the point of these two clips! "Before" was with no warmup, no break-in, no positioning, no cable dressing. "After" is with all those (and many other parameters) optimized (supposedly), so yes they are quite intentionally different. The only thing within the system that's out of my control is the cartridge age. But the cartridge is at the bottom of the LP12's hierarchy and there have been many variables upstream that have been optimized, and their improvements have been so significant that I would expect a cartridge with a couple hundred extra hours on it would still be able to pass the musical gains.
tokenbrit wrote: 2021-11-03 20:32 Don't forget: even Fredrik has said that he's taken a wrong turn or two and had to go back... If nothing else, there's value in assessing against a control and doing what you've done here: verifying that it really is better... Or not :/
Ohhhh yeah...I've taken lots of wrong turns! That's what's so great about this forum, it's members, and the power of the clips. Y'all have put me back on the right track many times! It is, of course, possible that we all missed a turn somewhere.
lejonklou wrote: 2021-11-03 21:39 Huh! Now that's discouraging to say the least. I have to admit that I also prefer the Before clip.

The thing is that these cumulative gains could be erased by one thing being wrong. Like Jajo told recently that he found one top spike was loose beneath one of his 708p speakers. That really brought everything down from great to mediocre.
Now that's interesting. I didn't realize that one error can erase everything! I had just assumed that the error's effect would only be felt by everything downstream from it, in other words its place in the hierarchy determines its influence on the system.
tpetsch wrote: 2021-11-03 22:36 Little things in set-up can make a big difference, remember the A/B here with that cheap plastic IKEA plug strip? ...Well, I personally played with that strip a dozen different ways and each way sounded different but I found a plug grouping that suites my system well and I'm still using it, that crappy strip is surprisingly good FWIW. So it just may be that when you initially set up your system you got set-set lucky and pulled three 7's. I learned a long time ago that you make only one change at a time and and listen for a day or two and if you discover the change was less in tune you can easily revert back and try again, multiple change all at once can only complicate matters.
I'm really intrigued to hear more about your experience with the Ikea strip. Would you be willing to write about it in the power strip thread? I too have been using the Ikea wall wart that was the last winner of the shootout.
beck wrote: 2021-11-04 12:01 Markiteight: our quest here is far more complex than could be imagined. The number of times I have been pointed in a different direction than I expected is substantial.
Ain't that the truth! To the point that my expectation bias is almost always proven wrong, like this latest example! As such I now fully expect that in the clips below everyone will prefer the Zu's over the JBL's! ;-)
Scooter62 wrote: 2021-11-04 14:14 After for me - Before sounds more like a modern “everybody send in their individual Protools track from around the world and we'll mix and master it” recording, where After sounds like everyone is together making music and contributing to a greater whole.
That's certainly closer to what I experience in the room. I haven't listened to the clips other than to insure the volume levels were consistent (turns out I recorded the first clip at substantially higher volume than all my future recordings).
beck wrote: 2021-11-07 17:29 I just realised that there is a big difference in the recording position in front of the system. I do not know why I did not react to this sooner!

Do not draw any conclusion until you have made a recording that has placed the speakers in the frame exactly the same way as in the before clip.

It can change the sound quite a lot depending on the room.............
That's a good point Beck but keep in mind the speakers are in different positions within the room in the two clips. In the first they're just arbitrarily plunked down in a spot that looked sorta right-ish, but in the second they have been carefully positioned, leveled, and stabilized. If I were to reframe the image so the speakers were in the same position on the screen, the recording device would end up in a physically different position in space within the room, and that would significantly alter the outcome!
markiteight wrote: 2021-11-02 00:33 I updated the first post with an "after" clip, but here it is along with the "before" clip for your convenience:

Before:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/cjq90zt9pd3ce ... 3.m4v?dl=0

After:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vkpadxaregwis ... 1.MOV?dl=0

Another clip with the JBLs will be along shortly.
And here it is:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vpyoicedebwt0 ... 6.MOV?dl=0

I'm beginning to suspect, after playing the above track on HAKAI that there may be something amiss with my LP12. Here's a pair of clips comparing HAKAI to LP12 (same Billie Holiday record, different track):

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ofnj9yvjf0s59 ... 6.MOV?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/lxm5d3oofvatu ... D.MOV?dl=0

What do you think?

While I'm a bit frustrated and disappointed that my 2+ year experiment was a bust, it has presented a rather intriguing mystery which could potentially result in a further musical gain...if I can manage to solve it. At the very least it'll be interesting!
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Re: It really ties the room together

Post by beck »

I will leave your “before” clip behind and concentrate on your after clips.

Whatever way I look at it you have a great musical setup. Your Hakai is doing fine. So is your JBL and your Zu speakers.

Your last comparison is to my ears so close that I for a moment was wondering if it was the same system playing twice.......
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Re: It really ties the room together

Post by Scooter62 »

Thanks for the new clips, markiteight! I preferred the second again by a small margin, and agree with beck that both are very musical and you have a highly communicative, well-integrated kit. The only thought I have regarding the LP12 setup is how close is it running to absolute 33.33 rpm? Sometimes I notice a similar difference in subtle performer tempo variations when playing a cd vs lp of the same recording? Just my two cents
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Re: It really ties the room together

Post by Lego »

Thanks for clips Mi8 ,well worth the wait.!!!That opening trumpet almost blew my head off .
Both systems sound brilliant,but if you were to turn amps & speakers back to hard cash ,it's a no brainer which set I'd be buying.This is a game changer .
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Re: It really ties the room together

Post by FairPlayMotty »

Lego wrote: 2021-11-08 10:14 Thanks for clips Mi8 ,well worth the wait.!!!That opening trumpet almost blew my head off .
Both systems sound brilliant,but if you were to turn amps & speakers back to hard cash ,it's a no brainer which set I'd be buying.This is a game changer .
+1
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