It really ties the room together

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Re: It really ties the room together

Post by lejonklou »

markiteight wrote: 2021-11-08 01:07
markiteight wrote: I updated the first post with an "after" clip, but here it is along with the "before" clip for your convenience:

Before:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/cjq90zt9pd3ce ... 3.m4v?dl=0

After:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vkpadxaregwis ... 1.MOV?dl=0

Another clip with the JBLs will be along shortly.
And here it is:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vpyoicedebwt0 ... 6.MOV?dl=0
I just re-listened to your two clips Before and After, markiteight. This time using headphones instead of terrible computer speakers. And I have changed my mind. I prefer After.

The JBL clip is interesting in that it makes the Zu sound so much "loudspeaker". I find the JBLs more musically expressive and involving.

What do you think?
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Re: It really ties the room together

Post by teatime »

The JBLs just aren't happening for me. Maybe it's because that clip is lower in volume (it is, right? or am I imagining that?) or maybe it's my failing hearing, but with the Zu's I feel the voice harmonizes with the band. With the JBLs the voice sort of replaces the band, as if the amp/speaker combo is less able to reproduce both at the same time. Also, to me, the band comes off as less rhythmically precise with the JBLs, and rather than involving I actually find the JBL clip rather boring to listen to. (But that might be because I've repeated it too many times by now...)

Btw, I have no idea what the alternative to "sounding like a loudspeaker" would be here. It mostly sounds like a phone recording.
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Re: It really ties the room together

Post by tokenbrit »

I found this challenging, not least because there are 3+ comparisons going on:
Before - After
Zu Omen DW - JBLs
(loudspeaker - monitor)
LP12 - Hakai

I have to admit to liking floorstanders - I have always struggled a bit with standmount speakers... Before anyone says: yes, I know the 3677s are standmount, technically

Ignoring the Hakai - LP12 comparison, I tried to focus on After(Zu) vs JBLs. The reason for mentioning my floorstander preference is there's something in the weight of sound that appeals to me, and it felt obvious immediately with the JBLs. I know it's not tune method, but I was distracted by the opening notes of the brass instrument through the JBLs, so much so that it had me looking up the arrangement for Stars Fell on Alabama to see if it was alto or tenor sax, or what pitch/type of trumpet it should be... Research listening on YouTube, the opening clips of Stars Fell tended to sound deeper, more like the Zu DWs than the JBLs, to me... Yes, yes, I know this is all tone, not tune, and I'm aware that brass instruments can (& should?) hit you, so the JBL monitors are likely more accurate, but the change in presentation was enough to sound like a different instrument... Maybe I just miss that Dirty Weekend body (ooerrr :)

Back to the tune, and no this isn't fence sitting: I thought they all sounded good, but I struggled to pick better/worse, and was confused that there was less between them musically, for me, than I expected. That goes for the LP12 - Hakai clips too, so not sure that you should pay any notice or mind to my post. (you're free to ignore, as always ;)
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Re: It really ties the room together

Post by Defender »

Lego wrote: 2021-11-08 10:14 Thanks for clips Mi8 ,well worth the wait.!!!That opening trumpet almost blew my head off .
Both systems sound brilliant,but if you were to turn amps & speakers back to hard cash ,it's a no brainer which set I'd be buying.This is a game changer .
which is than what kind of set?
Just to make sure I understand you right.
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Re: It really ties the room together

Post by Lego »

Defender wrote: 2021-11-08 16:18
Lego wrote: 2021-11-08 10:14 Thanks for clips Mi8 ,well worth the wait.!!!That opening trumpet almost blew my head off .
Both systems sound brilliant,but if you were to turn amps & speakers back to hard cash ,it's a no brainer which set I'd be buying.This is a game changer .
which is than what kind of set?
Just to make sure I understand you right.
I'd go for the cheaper option
I know that tune
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Re: It really ties the room together

Post by Defender »

so still in guessing mode - but assuming that means the JBLs

I am with tokenbrit although there is always something attractive with standmount speakers I also almost immediately miss something in the lower region of the frequency spectrum.
Also in this case I like the Zu Omen more and I wouldnt go the cheaper option - it could end up as a short time solution until you miss something. But thats just my opinion.

I always liked them (the Zu Omen) when I heard your clips Mi8
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Re: It really ties the room together

Post by FairPlayMotty »

Defender wrote: 2021-11-08 16:58 so still in guessing mode - but assuming that means the JBLs

I am with tokenbrit although there is always something attractive with standmount speakers I also almost immediately miss something in the lower region of the frequency spectrum.
Also in this case I like the Zu Omen more and I wouldnt go the cheaper option - it could end up as a short time solution until you miss something. But thats just my opinion.

I always liked them (the Zu Omen) when I heard your clips Mi8
The 3677 and the 308P are both thought by many to be lacking in the low frequency department, hence why subwoofers are recommended for the 308P and are/were used by 3677 owners. Adding to the low frequencies isn't the only improvement one might gain by adding a subwoofer.
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Re: It really ties the room together

Post by tokenbrit »

Assuming mi8 didn’t sneak an LSR 310 sub into his system w/out telling us ;)
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Re: It really ties the room together

Post by tokenbrit »

FairPlayMotty wrote: 2021-11-08 17:12
The 3677 and the 308P are both thought by many to be lacking in the low frequency department…
The volume & driver size of the 3677 is quite a bit more than the 308 so not sure whether there’s a difference in spec’d frequency response or room interaction for either to generate more perceived bass depending on space. For me the sense of scale with floorstanding over standmount speakers isn’t just in the lower registers (although that may be what adds the ‘weight’)

Should probably get back to discussing the clips & their relative musicality for fear of getting thrown off the forum… especially since this is a moderator’s system thread ;)
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Re: It really ties the room together

Post by Lego »

teatime wrote: 2021-11-08 15:09 The JBLs just aren't happening for me. Maybe it's because that clip is lower in volume (it is, right? or am I imagining that?) or maybe it's my failing hearing, but with the Zu's I feel the voice harmonizes with the band. With the JBLs the voice sort of replaces the band, as if the amp/speaker combo is less able to reproduce both at the same time. Also, to me, the band comes off as less rhythmically precise with the JBLs, and rather than involving I actually find the JBL clip rather boring to listen to. (But that might be because I've repeated it too many times by now...)

Btw, I have no idea what the alternative to "sounding like a loudspeaker" would be here. It mostly sounds like a phone recording.
One phone recording sounds like a loudspeaker at the end of a hifi system the other phone recording sounds like a lady singing .It's not complicated .I can understand why you feel this way ,but my experience at jazz gigs is that when someone sings at this level,the band usually disappears into the background.Sarah Vaughan being an example that springs to mind.The Solo is king ..or Queen .
I know that tune
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Re: It really ties the room together

Post by beck »

I hope we can all agree that we are not here to rectify each others hearing but to state what we personally hear, think and like. Then others can agree or disagree and hopefully we all will gain some knowledge.

On this forum it has often been said that speakers can be a very personal choice. I still think they are.
Playing cd’s…………
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Re: It really ties the room together

Post by markiteight »

beck wrote: 2021-11-08 04:05 Your last comparison is to my ears so close that I for a moment was wondering if it was the same system playing twice.......
After listening to the clips I wondered the same thing. The differences I hear live are diminished in the recordings, which makes me suspect that those differences are of the hifi variety and that the two sources are quite close musically.
Scooter62 wrote: 2021-11-08 05:04 The only thought I have regarding the LP12 setup is how close is it running to absolute 33.33 rpm? Sometimes I notice a similar difference in subtle performer tempo variations when playing a cd vs lp of the same recording? Just my two cents
I don't know! I'm guessing it is as nothing has changed since the speed was last calibrated, but that was in 2008. I do have the Linn speed calibration disc but I don't have the correct 300Hz strobe it requires.
Lego wrote: 2021-11-08 10:14 Thanks for clips Mi8 ,well worth the wait.!!!That opening trumpet almost blew my head off .
Both systems sound brilliant,but if you were to turn amps & speakers back to hard cash ,it's a no brainer which set I'd be buying.This is a game changer .
That's a great point, Lego, and one that is important to keep in mind: the 308P is not the most musical speaker out there, but it's close. What makes them a game changer is that they get as close as they do and they're cheap! I wouldn't be surprised if, with the right modifications and better amplification, the Omens could out tune the JBLs. But at what cost? The JBLs are awesome because they gave me a genuine musical improvement while freeing up cash (with the sale of the Omens and Klout) to invest in musical improvements further upstream where they really count. I just wish they were better looking.
lejonklou wrote: 2021-11-08 13:47
I just re-listened to your two clips Before and After, markiteight. This time using headphones instead of terrible computer speakers. And I have changed my mind. I prefer After.

The JBL clip is interesting in that it makes the Zu sound so much "loudspeaker". I find the JBLs more musically expressive and involving.

What do you think?
I think the recordings don't to the JBLs justice. That they're musically superior to the Omens is clear, but the degree to which they show the Zus their heels is not apparent in the clips. Your description of the Zus sounding 'so much "loudspeaker"' is a very accurate assessment of the difference, and up until the JBLs came along the Omens were the least 'loudspeaker' loudspeakers I had experienced. That's one helluva accomplishment for a digitally processed, Class D amplified, cheap studio monitor!
teatime wrote: 2021-11-08 15:09 The JBLs just aren't happening for me. Maybe it's because that clip is lower in volume (it is, right? or am I imagining that?) or maybe it's my failing hearing, but with the Zu's I feel the voice harmonizes with the band. With the JBLs the voice sort of replaces the band, as if the amp/speaker combo is less able to reproduce both at the same time. Also, to me, the band comes off as less rhythmically precise with the JBLs, and rather than involving I actually find the JBL clip rather boring to listen to. (But that might be because I've repeated it too many times by now...)
It's possible there's a slight volume difference. Despite being self powered the JBLs are less sensitive than the Omens so some volume adjustment was necessary. Compared to the JBLs the Omens do some Naim-like trickery to draw the listener into the music. There seems to be more emphasis on the leading edge of musical notes which exaggerates the portrayal of timing and gives a more exciting presentation. The JBLs are content to let the natural pace of the music shine through, and while this makes them initially sound dull and maybe even a bit slow, it doesn't take long to realize they're musically superior.
tokenbrit wrote: 2021-11-08 15:53 I found this challenging, not least because there are 3+ comparisons going on:
In retrospect I probably should have held off on the 2nd pair of clips 'till people had a chance to process the Omen/JBL pair. Sorry 'bout that.
tokenbrit wrote: 2021-11-08 15:53 I have to admit to liking floorstanders - I have always struggled a bit with standmount speakers... Before anyone says: yes, I know the 3677s are standmount, technically
Yeah I hear 'ya. I too struggled with that mindset while deciding whether or not to give the JBLs a punt. After enjoying the Omens and becoming accustom to their bass performance (which is really quite good for a speaker at their price point), did I really want to go back to a stand mount? Could I really live with sacrificing the floor stander's bass performance for some musical gain? I needn't have worried. In terms of quantity the JBLs actually have more bass, so much so that I'm struggling a bit to tame it all. 'What about extension,' you ask? Subjectively the JBLs dig a bit deeper, but they're pretty close. So from a sonic perspective the JBLs leave me with no lingering desire for a bigger box. But that's all a moot point. The JBLs just do bass right. And I mean that from a musical stand point. The Omens emphasize transients, giving the impression of "faster" bass and seemingly doing a better job propelling the music along. But after experiencing the JBL brand of bass I realize that this is a sonic exaggeration.

This all came as quite a surprise to me. Similar to your bias against stand mounts, I have a bias against ported loudspeakers. I just never heard a hole-in-the-box speaker that could fart out a tune better than a sealed box...until the JBLs came along. Digital processing, Class D amps, horn loaded tweeter (another bias of mine), stand mount, and a fart tube?! What the JBLs are, are the epitome of a paradox...in a convenient one box solution.
tokenbrit wrote: 2021-11-08 15:53 Back to the tune, and no this isn't fence sitting: I thought they all sounded good, but I struggled to pick better/worse, and was confused that there was less between them musically, for me, than I expected. That goes for the LP12 - Hakai clips too, so not sure that you should pay any notice or mind to my post. (you're free to ignore, as always ;)
I'm back to wondering if, as some others have suggested, the recording device is at least partially to blame for the somewhat ambiguous nature of my clips. It's a 7 year old iPhone, after all! Who knows how much schmutz is gumming up the microphones. I might try re-examining my much newer iPad as a recording device (the Simon and Garfunkel clip I posted earlier was recorded with the iPad).
FairPlayMotty wrote: 2021-11-08 17:12 The 3677 and the 308P are both thought by many to be lacking in the low frequency department, hence why subwoofers are recommended for the 308P and are/were used by 3677 owners. Adding to the low frequencies isn't the only improvement one might gain by adding a subwoofer.
From whom did you hear that the 308P is lacking in the low frequency department? They most certainly aren't! Jajo said he upgraded to the 708P because they play louder. The 308P does have its volume limitations (although in my experience in my small room those limitations are quite high). The Omens can play a lot louder too, but I suspect that's mostly down to the robustness of the amplification. Adding a 310 (or two) would probably mitigate most of the 308's output limitations, but for me the allure of the 310 is the ability to reduce the quantity of bass. An extra half-ish octave of bass wouldn't be unwelcome either.
tokenbrit wrote: 2021-11-08 17:41 Assuming mi8 didn’t sneak an LSR 310 sub into his system w/out telling us ;)
Naw...I wouldn't do that to you...would I? ;)
Besides, the LP12 would have to go on walkabout in order to accommodate a sub. I just don't have the space!
beck wrote: 2021-11-08 21:41 I hope we can all agree that we are not here to rectify each others hearing but to state what we personally hear, think and like. Then others can agree or disagree and hopefully we all will gain some knowledge.
I think that should be a pretty easy agreement to make! I personally appreciate and value each and every opinion you all have graciously taken the time and effort to give. With every post comes a new perspective and a new bit if feedback I would have otherwise never considered. I learn and grow from all of you. Thank you!!!
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Re: It really ties the room together

Post by FairPlayMotty »

markiteight wrote: 2021-11-08 23:12
FairPlayMotty wrote: 2021-11-08 17:12 The 3677 and the 308P are both thought by many to be lacking in the low frequency department, hence why subwoofers are recommended for the 308P and are/were used by 3677 owners. Adding to the low frequencies isn't the only improvement one might gain by adding a subwoofer.
From whom did you hear that the 308P is lacking in the low frequency department? They most certainly aren't! Jajo said he upgraded to the 708P because they play louder. The 308P does have its volume limitations (although in my experience in my small room those limitations are quite high). The Omens can play a lot louder too, but I suspect that's mostly down to the robustness of the amplification. Adding a 310 (or two) would probably mitigate most of the 308's output limitations, but for me the allure of the 310 is the ability to reduce the quantity of bass. An extra half-ish octave of bass wouldn't be unwelcome either.
https://www.lejonklou.com/forum/viewtop ... 878#p60878

Trying to help keep the JBL comments in one thread, tricky though :)
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Re: It really ties the room together

Post by tokenbrit »

mi8 wrote: ... loaded tweeter .. and a fart tube...

... appreciate and value each and every opinion... With every post comes a new perspective and a new bit if feedback... Thank you!!!
Wise words. Cheers Billie :)
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Re: It really ties the room together

Post by V.A.MKD »

beck wrote: 2021-11-08 21:41 I hope we can all agree that we are not here to rectify each others hearing but to state what we personally hear, think and like. Then others can agree or disagree and hopefully we all will gain some knowledge.

On this forum it has often been said that speakers can be a very personal choice. I still think they are.
+1 ...
Music First ...
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Re: It really ties the room together

Post by u252agz »

With the Zu (after) vs JBL clips - I find the JBLS much more musical and enjoyable- and by a country mile.

If the costs were reversed, and I could live with the aesthetics and stand mounted speakers - I would still opt for the JBLs.

Which stands are you using Mi8?
Kalla/Sag M/Tun M3/242/LP12/Slip7

Kalla/Giella Pi/JBL308/RS2e

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Re: It really ties the room together

Post by matthias »

markiteight wrote: 2021-11-08 01:07 ...same Billie Holiday record, different track...
BTW, which BH record is it?
Thanks

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Re: It really ties the room together

Post by markiteight »

u252agz wrote: 2021-11-11 13:37 With the Zu (after) vs JBL clips - I find the JBLS much more musical and enjoyable- and by a country mile.

If the costs were reversed, and I could live with the aesthetics and stand mounted speakers - I would still opt for the JBLs.

Which stands are you using Mi8?
The Omens offer a more rhythmic/dynamic/exciting presentation which initially makes them more fun to listen to, but compared to the JBLs it quickly becomes apparent that these qualities are forced. The JBLs are simply closer to the music.

I'm using a pair of Kan stands that I luckily had laying around 'just in case.'
matthias wrote: 2021-11-11 19:03 BTW, which BH record is it?
Thanks

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Re: It really ties the room together

Post by u252agz »

These JBLs are very special - individual notes and instruments may initially sound more ‘real’ with your Zus, but the flow, timing and essence of the music, to my ears are owned by the JBLs.

I am listening at the moment to my Mark1 308s with Kalla#017 (just set up) and Giella Pi and shaking my head in disbelief at what these active speakers can do.

Enjoy!
Kalla/Sag M/Tun M3/242/LP12/Slip7

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Re: It really ties the room together

Post by markiteight »

u252agz wrote: 2021-11-11 22:15 I am listening at the moment to my Mark1 308s with Kalla#017 (just set up) and Giella Pi and shaking my head in disbelief at what these active speakers can do.

Enjoy!
Oh my...I can only imagine how enjoyable that must be. Mere weeks ago I was thoroughly convinced I would never, ever part with my LP12, but I have to admit all the chatter about Källa's spectacular musical performance has me seriously reconsidering that conviction.
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Re: It really ties the room together

Post by Discodave »

Its certainly a valid consideration, esp applying cost/benefit. But I can't give up the love I have of playing vinyl.
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Re: It really ties the room together

Post by Tony Tune-age »

Discodave wrote: 2021-11-11 23:41 Its certainly a valid consideration, esp applying cost/benefit. But I can't give up the love I have of playing vinyl.
There are certainly conveniences with streaming, and as with vinyl, there are issues with streaming as well. The main issues for me are being tied to the internet, and depending on the music streaming services. Because both are routinely problematic and cost a fair amount of money depending on the options chosen. Privacy is essentially gone with internet, and anything connected to the internet. At least the turntable isn't connected to the internet, and I own all of my music.
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Re: It really ties the room together

Post by tokenbrit »

Yes you own the LPs, but streaming is relatively cheap, assuming you already have an Internet service*: most LPs are about $25 new these days; Spotify is roughly half that - 1 new LP every 2 months vs the whole streaming service** library... Of course the best would be to have both, with VPN for Internet privacy.

* not an unreasonable assumption if you are posting on this forum ;)

** there's a host of Internet radio stations if you don't want to pay for streaming :)
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Re: It really ties the room together

Post by Discodave »

I could not and will not be without digital/streaming services.

I can't carry my turntable in my pocket.
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Re: It really ties the room together

Post by markiteight »

Dave and Tony, you make some very good points, and they feature heavily in my own internal debate. Things I keep reminding myself while the debate rages:

Källa doesn't need to be connected to the internet. It can play from a NAS on a local network that's isolated from the internet, but it's at its best when streaming from internet services, at this time. That could change in the future.

As for owning my own music collection, that's something I have a harder time letting go. But just because I get rid of my player doesn't mean I have to get rid of my records, and I can always get another turntable in the future. There is no way, either financially or physically, that I could even come close to owning all the music I'd have access to via the streaming services, and having a device that makes discovering new music so much fun may be the Källa's most compelling feature.

My biggest concern related to the streaming services is that they at some point implement some change that destroys whatever makes them so musical. A stable, local, and truly excellent source would be a welcome reassurance.

Privacy isn't really a concern as I'm already on the interwebs and I don't see how a network streamer like Källa could compromise things any further.

The debate boils down to this: If we're trying to extract the most musical enjoyment from our systems, Källa is currently the most accessible means to that goal available.
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